Whatever happened to the dominant big player?

[fanaticV3.0]

I'm not talking about just tough guys, though you could say they've gotten smaller too. I mean where are all the power forwards hard-hitting defensemen with killer slap shots nowadays? I grew up watching some monsters and the league leaders consists of a hell of a lot of guys now who barely or don't even break the 6 foot, 200lb mark.

 

I don't think it's a matter "the game has gotten faster" either, because if a guy is good enough that's all that matters. I think hockey players have actually gotten smaller in recent years. Almost every sport guys have gotten bigger. Hell in everyday life, people are taller too. But there was a ton of big guys in the 90s and not just big, but big guys who could play. It's almost like they don't exist (in the same quality that they used to) anymore.

[flyercanuck]

Taking out the red line and attempting to remove clutch and grab has opened the door to the smaller, faster, skilled player. Players like MacKinnon or Kane would never have gone 1st overall in the old days.

 

 But there are still plenty of big dominant players. Chara and Lucic are obvious examples. Getzlaf is 6'4" 220. Ovechkin is even bigger. Malkin, Thornton, Kopitar, Backes. Byfuglian weighs about 300 lbs in the early fall. But the game has evolved more toward speed and generally smaller players are faster. So I guess there is a tendency to go that route as opposed to the big galoot that used to lumber around most rinks.

[fanaticV3.0]

Taking out the red line and attempting to remove clutch and grab has opened the door to the smaller, faster, skilled player. Players like MacKinnon or Kane would never have gone 1st overall in the old days.

 

 But there are still plenty of big dominant players. Chara and Lucic are obvious examples. Getzlaf is 6'4" 220. Ovechkin is even bigger. Malkin, Thornton, Kopitar, Backes. Byfuglian weighs about 300 lbs in the early fall. But the game has evolved more toward speed and generally smaller players are faster. So I guess there is a tendency to go that route as opposed to the big galoot that used to lumber around most rinks.

 

I don't mean that the game simply caters to smaller/faster players now, but that the players have stopped getting bigger and might even be smaller than in the past. There isn't a ton of data on this, but the average NHL player is slightly over 200lbs. That isn't very big to me.

 

I don't mean to say they don't exist, just that there aren't as many of them, particularly when it comes to younger players, and they don't have the impact they used to. Thornton and Chara are from another era imo. They are leftovers from a time when that kind of player was more common. I think Getzlaf is the closest thing to what I'm talking about, but even then his production hasn't been the same as it was just a few years back. 07 and 08 were the only seasons where he stood out. He has had health problems, so I can cut him some slack.. Ovechkin and Kopitar have sustained a more dominant level of play, so I agree with them. Backes and Lucic are good players, but when I think of big, powerful, dominant guys I think of Hatcher, Pronger, Shanahan, Lindros, LeClair, Stevens, Tocchet (at his prime), Tkachuk. Guys who you were scared to play against because they could score or beat you up. Malkin? Isn't he under 200lbs?

Edited November 15, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[flyercanuck]

Getzlaf is a top 10 scorer in the NHL today. Tocchet was only 6 feet tall. Lindros was a freak combination of size and skill, but Ovechkin is basically the same size.

 

We've got a 17 year old defenceman on our junior team who's 6'4" 215 pounds has a rocket of a shot and should go either 1st or 2nd overall next draft. Happy?

[yave1964]

I have a man crush on Shea Weber for being a big banger and a nasty player. Easily one of my favorites in the game today. Kronwall is a little guy who hits like a big guy.

  Power Forwards? Are there any left?

Ryan Clowe who I hate with every fiber of my being for being a whiny little baby constantly beotchin at the refs is a power player, not afraid to mix it up with anyone. I cannot stand him but I love his game. Milan Lucic is a power forward with attitude, Zach Kassian was supposed to be but is a fraud. David Calrkson wants to be really bad. Christ Stewart is every other year. Dustin Brown is the top power forward I can think of in this game today. Gabriel Landeskog brings hope for the future.

  Overall the pickings are pretty slim. Guys like Claude Freaking Lemieux and Brendan Shanahan must be shaking their heads.

[hf101]

I don't think it's a matter "the game has gotten faster" either, because if a guy is good enough that's all that matters.

 

Yes, That is the reason.  The game has gotten faster.  Speed and skating skills are at higher value since the red line was removed.  Players are more concerned of the bmi, and are just leaner today than say 10 years ago.   The game now is much more about quickness and skill than it is about that big bone crunching hit.  Players often take chances on those big hits only to end up in Shanny's sin bin. They also put themselves out of position by making that big hit as the play continues and moves quickly up ice. 

 

I'd take a Datsyuk type player on my team any day over a Tocchet type player.

[jammer2]

  He might be falling out his prime these days, but Joe Thornton is/was a great big man for a long time. Nice reach, excellent passer, he comes to mind when thinking about big men on offense.

[yave1964]

  He might be falling out his prime these days, but Joe Thornton is/was a great big man for a long time. Nice reach, excellent passer, he comes to mind when thinking about big men on offense.

I always think of Big Joe as a bit soft, he plays a small mans game, a great passer but doesn't use his size.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Oh I agree, he could/should have been more dominant....but that big wing span has always been impressive. He thinks the game well.

[fanaticV3.0]

Getzlaf is a top 10 scorer in the NHL today. Tocchet was only 6 feet tall. Lindros was a freak combination of size and skill, but Ovechkin is basically the same size.

 

We've got a 17 year old defenceman on our junior team who's 6'4" 215 pounds has a rocket of a shot and should go either 1st or 2nd overall next draft. Happy?

 

Right now, yeah. But is he a top 10 player in the game today? No. He averages 60 points a year. That's not bad, but it's not dominant at all.

 

I don't give a **** about juniors. I watch the NHL. Not to mention, it's one player.

[fanaticV3.0]

I have a man crush on Shea Weber for being a big banger and a nasty player. Easily one of my favorites in the game today. Kronwall is a little guy who hits like a big guy.

  Power Forwards? Are there any left?

Ryan Clowe who I hate with every fiber of my being for being a whiny little baby constantly beotchin at the refs is a power player, not afraid to mix it up with anyone. I cannot stand him but I love his game. Milan Lucic is a power forward with attitude, Zach Kassian was supposed to be but is a fraud. David Calrkson wants to be really bad. Christ Stewart is every other year. Dustin Brown is the top power forward I can think of in this game today. Gabriel Landeskog brings hope for the future.

  Overall the pickings are pretty slim. Guys like Claude Freaking Lemieux and Brendan Shanahan must be shaking their heads.

 

I think that think with Zetterberg was one of the lowest things I've ever seen, but I understand your point.

 

When you say Lucic and Brown are top power forwards, I can agree with that statement, but I'm not sure if that translates into some of the best forwards in the league. What I mean is a time when power forwards were amongst the best forwards in the league. They are both good at what they do though, I agree.

 

I agree the picking do appear to be slim.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yes, That is the reason.  The game has gotten faster.  Speed and skating skills are at higher value since the red line was removed.  Players are more concerned of the bmi, and are just leaner today than say 10 years ago.   The game now is much more about quickness and skill than it is about that big bone crunching hit.  Players often take chances on those big hits only to end up in Shanny's sin bin. They also put themselves out of position by making that big hit as the play continues and moves quickly up ice. 

 

I'd take a Datsyuk type player on my team any day over a Tocchet type player.

 

I do agree players are smaller now, but I don't think it's all a matter of them making an effort of being leaner.

 

You can't change your height though. There isn't a ton of data on this, but the best I could come up with was that the average NHL players is 6 foot. And if you look at the league leaders, there's a lot of guys 6 foot or under. You can change your weight, but not your height.

 

It's true you can control your weight with diet and exercise, but the average NHL players is 6 feet, 203lbs. I highly doubt a lot of these guys are 5'11/6 foot and naturally 220-240, but walking around at a lot less. That's just not normal unless you are obese.

 

I actually think that for whatever reason guys are smaller than they used to be. I don't know if it's a matter of them not getting drafted or there actually being a shift in size of the average player.

[flyercanuck]

Right now, yeah. But is he a top 10 player in the game today? No. He averages 60 points a year. That's not bad, but it's not dominant at all.

 

I don't give a **** about juniors. I watch the NHL. Not to mention, it's one player.

 

Getzlaf may not dominate points-wise...but he can dominate a game. Just watch him.

 

I know you "don't give a **** about juniors". But the players don't just magically appear in  the NHL, they come from somewhere. And Ekblad (the kid I talked about) is of the size we're discussing and will be a dominant NHLer. 

[fanaticV3.0]

Getzlaf may not dominate points-wise...but he can dominate a game. Just watch him.

 

I know you "don't give a **** about juniors". But the players don't just magically appear in  the NHL, they come from somewhere. And Ekblad (the kid I talked about) is of the size we're discussing and will be a dominant NHLer. 

 

There's a difference between guys who can and do.

 

What is it with you guys and your junior players? You can't give an opinion. You make definitive statements. It's almost like you're incapable of anything other than grossly overstating a point.

[flyercanuck]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Ekblad is 17, 6'4" 217 pounds, one the the smartest players I've ever seen on our junior team who've missed the playoffs once in their entire history.He's been ranked 1 or 2 for this draft for about 3 years now. Not by me, by NHL scouts. I think the odds are about 99.99999% that he's going to be a pretty good NHL player.

 

Sorry if it offends you to discuss up and coming players. If it bothers you so much, why don't you just skip these posts? .

[bunnyman]

While I see @fanaticV3.0 's point, @flyercanuck is right on as far as who we WILL see in the next few years. I remember when the power forward was de rigour. Now it seems there are few left. But the Blues had a lack of size last year that frankly cost the the playoffs last season. They have upgraded their size considerably. I think size has shrunk temporarily in the NHL, but as humans are on average taller and bigger than ever, this will be reflected in the size of NHL players in the future.

[fanaticV3.0]

While I see @fanaticV3.0 's point, @flyercanuck is right on as far as who we WILL see in the next few years. I remember when the power forward was de rigour. Now it seems there are few left. But the Blues had a lack of size last year that frankly cost the the playoffs last season. They have upgraded their size considerably. I think size has shrunk temporarily in the NHL, but as humans are on average taller and bigger than ever, this will be reflected in the size of NHL players in the future.

 

That's what I find rather puzzling. People are getting bigger on average both in and outside of sports. But like you, I think hockey players have gotten smaller.

 

Personally, I'd like to see both types of players in the league. I'd welcome a return of the big guy (on a more mass scale), but don't want the smaller skilled guys to disappear.

Edited November 19, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[bunnyman]

@fanaticV3.0

Eventually, the league will probably have mainly big people and the player that is sub 5'10"-ish will be the oddity.