Streit

[radoran]

I like what the Flyers were going for when they got Streit.   Streit's "upside" was what was perceived to be missing on the Flyers' blueline since they forgot to offer Matt Carle a contract.   I guess they figured they'd rather have a winger-light play defense than not have anyone that can move the puck.

 

But the contract was utterly ridiculous even before Streit signed it.  And now that the "upside" isn't what was advertised and the downside is actually becoming worse, it's just a disaster.  And that disaster has a lot of room to grow as he ages.

 

What, exactly, were they paying Timonen $6M to come back for another season for?

[ruxpin]

What, exactly, were they paying Timonen $6M to come back for another season for?

 

 

I'm sure that was rhetorical, but I have absolutely no idea.   A really big "Thank you" is all I can come up with.

[radoran]

I'm sure that was rhetorical, but I have absolutely no idea.   A really big "Thank you" is all I can come up with.

 

No, it was in relation to the bolded portion of your quote about them not having a puck moving defenceman as justification for the Streit signing.

 

They just paid $6M to a guy to be their "puck moving defenseman"

[ruxpin]

No, it was in relation to the bolded portion of your quote about them not having a puck moving defenceman as justification for the Streit signing.

 

They just paid $6M to a guy to be their "puck moving defenseman"

 

 

I don't know, rad.  I think Streit was somehow supposed to replace Carle's role...however you want to describe it.  Because Timo was here last year, too, and that aspect  was gravely missing.   I would have been okay with Streit for less money and less years (although he would have been nuts to take either).  It was only ever going to be a crap shoot at best, and it hasn't turned out terribly well so far.

 

As for Timo, I don't know what role he was supposed to be (I personally agree they had the delusion of his being a puck moving defenseman), but whatever it is he's ridiculously overpaid at this point.

[radoran]

I don't know, rad.  I think Streit was somehow supposed to replace Carle's role...however you want to describe it.  Because Timo was here last year, too, and that aspect  was gravely missing.   I would have been okay with Streit for less money and less years (although he would have been nuts to take either).  It was only ever going to be a crap shoot at best, and it hasn't turned out terribly well so far.

 

As for Timo, I don't know what role he was supposed to be (I personally agree they had the delusion of his being a puck moving defenseman), but whatever it is he's ridiculously overpaid at this point.

 

Timonen was 4th in the league in scoring amongst defencemen last year. He was "on pace" for a 53-point year. He had two more points in three fewer games than Streit.

 

If that's not a puck-moving defenceman, what is?

 

Further, why the hell are they paying $6M for a guy who isn't a puck-moving defenceman?

[aziz]

No, it was in relation to the bolded portion of your quote about them not having a puck moving defenceman as justification for the Streit signing.
 
They just paid $6M to a guy to be their "puck moving defenseman"

 

i think the purely theoretical explanation is that teams don't need their puck moving defenseman, they need their puck moving defensemen.  it wasn't an utter lack of the resource that was addressed, it was the lack of quantity of the resource.  twenty minutes per night of effective breakout passing doesn't cut it.  forty begins to get there.

 

now, addressed well or not is a different discussion, but adding someone with streit's abilities to a team that already had timonen made sense.

[radoran]

i think the purely theoretical explanation is that teams don't need their puck moving defenseman, they need their puck moving defensemen.  it wasn't an utter lack of the resource that was addressed, it was the lack of quantity of the resource.  twenty minutes per night of effective breakout passing doesn't cut it.  forty begins to get there.

 

now, addressed well or not is a different discussion, but adding someone with streit's abilities to a team that already had timonen made sense.

 

I can see that aspect of the argument, sure.

 

And fits in perfectly with the tendency of the organization to fix a short term problem with a long term contract.

[aziz]

And fits in perfectly with the tendency of the organization to fix a short term problem with a long term contract.

 

+1

[flyerrod]

@ruxpin@fanaticV3.0

 

 

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glad-hand

[aziz]

@flyerrod

 

 

transitive or intransitive verb?

[fanaticV3.0]

@ruxpin@fanaticV3.0

 

 

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/glad-hand

 

I learned a new word today. Pretty neat. I honestly never heard that saying before.Thanks for that.

 

And rux? Sorry I glad-handed you. I didn't mean anything by it. If I made you feel uncomfortable by my inappropriate behavior, I apologize. It was not my intention.

[ruxpin]

Timonen was 4th in the league in scoring amongst defencemen last year. He was "on pace" for a 53-point year. He had two more points in three fewer games than Streit.

 

If that's not a puck-moving defenceman, what is?

 

Further, why the hell are they paying $6M for a guy who isn't a puck-moving defenceman?

 

I'll defer to aziz's answer, because I think it's pretty good.    What I'm curious about is that I think I've seen you say similar to what I'm saying, so I'm a little lost here.

[ruxpin]

I learned a new word today. Pretty neat. I honestly never heard that saying before.Thanks for that.

 

And rux? Sorry I glad-handed you. I didn't mean anything by it. If I made you feel uncomfortable by my inappropriate behavior, I apologize. It was not my intention.

 

It's fine.

 

I have actually heard the term before but was entirely disinterested in the comment.

[fanaticV3.0]

It's fine.

 

I have actually heard the term before but was entirely disinterested in the comment.

 

I'm not really apologizing you ass, lol. I was making a bad joke.

[ruxpin]

I'm not really apologizing you ass, lol. I was making a bad joke.

 

I knew my post was ambiguous.  I didn't mean YOUR comment.  (and I knew you weren't really apologizing.  Ha!  Bad joke received!)

[radoran]

I'll defer to aziz's answer, because I think it's pretty good.    What I'm curious about is that I think I've seen you say similar to what I'm saying, so I'm a little lost here.

 

I defer to aziz's answer as well.

 

I still think it's like plugging a hole in a boat with the anchor.

[ruxpin]

I defer to aziz's answer as well.

 

I still think it's like plugging a hole in a boat with the anchor.

 

 

Yes.  Agreed.

[Polaris922]

I defer to aziz's answer as well.

I still think it's like plugging a hole in a boat with the anchor.

They were also trying to address the lack of 5 on 5 production from defense. Streit far out produced Timonen in 5 on 5 play. Timonen is strictly a power play guy these recent years.

I posted a summary of the comparison back when the deal was done that showed Streit as far ahead of Timo in production and I could find it for you again if you'd like but...

It doesn't really matter right now though... Streit's disappearance on the score sheet remains a mystery to me. I understand how you've shown the offense of your squad has changed, especially the impact Jagr was for your forwards, but still... Quite the slide.

[flyerrod]

It doesn't really matter right now though... Streit's disappearance on the score sheet remains a mystery to me. I understand how you've shown the offense of your squad has changed, especially the impact Jagr was for your forwards, but still... Quite the slide.

After the first period last night, Streit had plenty of company in the not playing up to par. Mez and Schenn both had turnovers that led directly to scores from their poor play. Mez seemed especially hideous last night. He looked like he just gave up a couple of times and Schenn(L) needs to learn to play his man and not collapse on someone else in front of the net.......

[radoran]

They were also trying to address the lack of 5 on 5 production from defense. Streit far out produced Timonen in 5 on 5 play. Timonen is strictly a power play guy these recent years.

I posted a summary of the comparison back when the deal was done that showed Streit as far ahead of Timo in production and I could find it for you again if you'd like but...

It doesn't really matter right now though... Streit's disappearance on the score sheet remains a mystery to me. I understand how you've shown the offense of your squad has changed, especially the impact Jagr was for your forwards, but still... Quite the slide.

 

"Far" outproduced is a bit of hyperbole.

 

Timonen had 17 of 29 points on the PP last season (59%). Streit had 11 of 27 (41%). Is six points of difference on the PP "far outproducing"?? 12 points 5on5 vs. 16 points 5on5??

 

The year before? Timonen 21 of 43 (49%), Streit 23 of 47 (49%).

 

I'd be happy to review your previous analysis

[Polaris922]

"Far" outproduced is a bit of hyperbole.

Timonen had 17 of 29 points on the PP last season (59%). Streit had 11 of 27 (41%). Is six points of difference on the PP "far outproducing"?? 12 points 5on5 vs. 16 points 5on5??

The year before? Timonen 21 of 43 (49%), Streit 23 of 47 (49%).

I'd be happy to review your previous analysis

Here we go with you defending the patron saint of has beens again... . Lemme try to find it...

Edited December 12, 2013 by Polaris922

[radoran]

Here we go with you defending the patron saint of has beens again... . Lemme try to find it...

 

I've roasted Timonen on more than one occasion this season and will continue to do so should his play continue as it has been. I thought re-signing him at $6M was, quite frankly, ridiculous and said so at the time. It didn't need to be done rightthen and was far too much money.

 

I can see aziz's point about Streit being about needing a secondary compliment to their "#1" puck moving defenceman (a la Carle) more than I see an obvious difference between the two 5on5.

 

Again, happy to review your research

[Polaris922]

This was the article Jammer posted right after the signing...

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/59452-the-flyers-offensive-d-men/?fromsearch=1

I felt that supported Timo's lack of even strength play. I also broke down some numbers ...

Timo vs Streit

Over the past five seasons (one of which Streit missed completely) at even strength, Streit has outscored Timo 14 goals 78 assists to 9 goals 75 assists even strength. That's in 76 fewer games, or Streit's .322 points per game even strength to Timo's .232 ppg.

On the power play, Timo's .279 ppg closes significantly on Streit's .297 ppg.

In that time period, Streit's has over double Timo's goals per game overall average at .136 gpg vs. Timo's .055 gpg. Including nearly double his even strength gpg at .049 vs. .025.

Overall point production remains in Streit's favor fairly well too... At .619 vs .511.

The only statistical categories Timo wins on are games played (362 vs 286) due to Streit's missing the '10-'11 season, and assist per game on the power play where Timo is .249 to Streit's .210.

That's a significant advantage in Streit's favor in even strength play where Timonen has had only 9 even strength goals in five seasons.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Polaris922

[JackStraw]

@Polaris922 - you and i have gone round the block a few times on the subject of Timonen so i won't really join the fray here. I won't dispute your numbers or even that Streit has been "better" offensively than Timonen. But it is worth pointing out that the Flyers lean heavily on Timonen in all situations, whereas Streit is more an offensive defenseman. Timonen isn't going to rack up the points killing penalties or shutting down opposing top lines.

Edited December 12, 2013 by JackStraw

[radoran]

Timonen hasn't been "a goal scorer" for the Flyers since he got here. His top goal total was eight in his first year.

 

I concur that the two players play different style of game, but so did the Isles and Flyers over the past five seasons.

 

Streit's best goal scoring season was 08-09 - five years ago - when he has 10 of 16 goals on the PP. Since then he was 9 of 11 on the PP, 3 of 7 and 3 of 6.

 

Now, as I read the record from 08-09 on, Timonen has 1 ESG, 3 ESG, 3 ESG, 0 ESG, 2 ESG - nine even strength goals.

 

Taking Streit's past five seasons (allowing for the year he was out) - 6-5-2-4-3 - 20 even strength goals. Importantly, however, 11 of those come from 07-08 (six with Montreal) and 08-09 (five with the Isles). Since that point he has nine and Timonen has... Five. An edge? Sure. "Far" more? Not sure I'd go with that.

 

Again with even strength assists over past five played seasons:
Streit: 22-20-25-20-13 - 100

Timonen: 13-14-16-22-10 - 75

 

BUT, over the past three seasons? Streit 58, Timonen 48. An edge? Sure. "Far" more? Not sure I'd go with that.

 

Over the past two seasons?  Streit 33, Timonen 32.

 

Even-strength-wise over the past three seasons that's four more goals and 10 more assists. An edge? Sure. "Far" more? Not sure I'd go with that. I'm also not sure that 14 fewer ES points in three years indicates a "lack of" even strength play from Timonen.

 

Finally, this season Timonen has twice as many even strength goals (2-1) and has 2/3 of his points (6 of 9) on the PP while Streit has 7 of his 11 on the PP.

 

The point is that while the Flyers may have signed the 07-08 and 08-09 Streit, they're getting the 13-14 Streit. And they have three more seasons after this one.

 

@Polaris922 - you and i have gone round the block a few times on the subject of Timonen so i won't really join the fray here. I won't dispute your numbers or even that Streit has been "better" offensively than Timonen. But it is worth pointing out that the Flyers lean heavily on Timonen in all situations, whereas Streit is more an offensive defenseman. Timonen isn't going to rack up the points killing penalties or shutting down opposing top lines.

 

Timonen has six SH points in the past five seasons. Streit has two