It's All Fun And Games Until Someone Loses An Eye

[ihabs1993]

     We’ve all heard the saying before. It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Whether we were wrestling too much with our older brothers or playing with sticks because they looked like swords, our mothers would warn us with the possibility of temporary or permanent blindness. 

 

     In the minds of the NHL, it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... which can be fixed by giving out a 15 game suspension.

 

     Brendan Shanahan and Commissioner Bettman should take a page from our mothers after viewing one of the most overly violent non-hockey incidents in recent history.

 

     Of course, I’m talking about Bruin’s tough guy Shawn Thornton’s on ice attack of Penguins defensemen Brooks Orpik. Explaining the event would be redundant as everyone has seen it dozens of times by now. While Shanahan and the Department of Player Safety did levy a 15 game suspension for the incident, the longest suspension since Shanahan took his position, I feel that they’re missing the point here. 

 

     This is a band-aid fix. The league seems to want to make quick fixes without any concern for the future of player safety.

Yet everyone was surprised when former NHL players filed a lawsuit against the league claiming that the league did not protect players from head injuries adequately.

 

     The sad part about this, is that the league’s rules on issues like the Thornton scrum contradict with the so called “code” that Thornton and the reporters at NESN seem to insist is the only governing body that should matter on the ice. To me, the issue here is well before the punches were thrown. That issue is the “third man in” rule. Orpik was already engaged with a player in a scrum after the whistle when Thornton skated the full length of the ice to blindside Orpik. How does this not warrant a “third man in” call? Well, this contradicts the “fighter code”, with Thornton claiming that Orpik needed to stand up for his clean hit on Loui Eriksson. The third man in penalty does not matter when players are allowed to gang up on players who violate rules that do not exist. 

 

     On that note, the fighter code is absolute garbage. If I have to hear how honorable Shawn Thornton has been for the Bruins, I might lose all faith in the game of hockey. 

 

     So what does this have to do with losing an eye? Well, the league seems to encourage these scrums after the whistles for the most part. The fans love it when one of their guys manhandle a smaller player from another team who may have gotten a bit too close to the goaltender. Watching the Canadiens for the past eight years, I’ve seen players like Koivu, Cammalleri, Gionta, Desharnais, and now Gallagher get manhandled, beyond what qualifies as roughing, after the whistle sounds. These scraps start with one player harassing one player, until the other forwards on the ice come in at full speed to try and help. This is the problem. What Thornton did happens every single game and it even intensifies in the playoffs.

 

     There is only one way to fix this.

 

     You know how when games get out of hand, and post-whistle scraps become more frequent? You know how officials start to only assess one penalty after a scrum? That needs to happen from the start of the game in order for these incidents to stop. As soon as there is a scrum, and the head becomes a target for fists, the officials need to assess a penalty. I know. How boring. How will players like Shawn Thornton be able to make a living by showing how honorable he is (puke)?

 

     But this is what we asked for. Players, fans, owners and practically everyone in the hockey world is tired of needless injuries, but they seem to avoid the main issue- the needless encouragements of violence that have become a tradition of hockey. As Ken Dryden explained recently, we need to strike a balance between excitement and speed without making the game “more stupid than it already is”. 

 

     Let me explain that I do not fighting gone from the game, as the fight has its place in hockey and both combatants know the risk they take before they drop the gloves. This was not a fight. This was an attack. If Thornton did this in public, he would be doing jail time.

 

     What Shawn Thornton did was stupid.

How the league looks the other way is just plain careless.

 

 

[Polaris922]

We’ve all heard the saying before. It’s all fun and games until someone loses an eye. Whether we were wrestling too much with our older brothers or playing with sticks because they looked like swords, our mothers would warn us with the possibility of temporary or permanent blindness.

In the minds of the NHL, it's all fun and games until someone loses an eye... which can be fixed by giving out a 15 game suspension.

Brendan Shanahan and Commissioner Bettman should take a page from our mothers after viewing one of the most overly violent non-hockey incidents in recent history.

Of course, I’m talking about Bruin’s tough guy Shawn Thornton’s on ice attack of Penguins defensemen Brooks Orpik. Explaining the event would be redundant as everyone has seen it dozens of times by now. While Shanahan and the Department of Player Safety did levy a 15 game suspension for the incident, the longest suspension since Shanahan took his position, I feel that they’re missing the point here.

This is a band-aid fix. The league seems to want to make quick fixes without any concern for the future of player safety.

Yet everyone was surprised when former NHL players filed a lawsuit against the league claiming that the league did not protect players from head injuries adequately.

The sad part about this, is that the league’s rules on issues like the Thornton scrum contradict with the so called “code” that Thornton and the reporters at NESN seem to insist is the only governing body that should matter on the ice. To me, the issue here is well before the punches were thrown. That issue is the “third man in” rule. Orpik was already engaged with a player in a scrum after the whistle when Thornton skated the full length of the ice to blindside Orpik. How does this not warrant a “third man in” call? Well, this contradicts the “fighter code”, with Thornton claiming that Orpik needed to stand up for his clean hit on Loui Eriksson. The third man in penalty does not matter when players are allowed to gang up on players who violate rules that do not exist.

On that note, the fighter code is absolute garbage. If I have to hear how honorable Shawn Thornton has been for the Bruins, I might lose all faith in the game of hockey.

So what does this have to do with losing an eye? Well, the league seems to encourage these scrums after the whistles for the most part. The fans love it when one of their guys manhandle a smaller player from another team who may have gotten a bit too close to the goaltender. Watching the Canadiens for the past eight years, I’ve seen players like Koivu, Cammalleri, Gionta, Desharnais, and now Gallagher get manhandled, beyond what qualifies as roughing, after the whistle sounds. These scraps start with one player harassing one player, until the other forwards on the ice come in at full speed to try and help. This is the problem. What Thornton did happens every single game and it even intensifies in the playoffs.

There is only one way to fix this.

You know how when games get out of hand, and post-whistle scraps become more frequent? You know how officials start to only assess one penalty after a scrum? That needs to happen from the start of the game in order for these incidents to stop. As soon as there is a scrum, and the head becomes a target for fists, the officials need to assess a penalty. I know. How boring. How will players like Shawn Thornton be able to make a living by showing how honorable he is (puke)?

But this is what we asked for. Players, fans, owners and practically everyone in the hockey world is tired of needless injuries, but they seem to avoid the main issue- the needless encouragements of violence that have become a tradition of hockey. As Ken Dryden explained recently, we need to strike a balance between excitement and speed without making the game “more stupid than it already is”.

Let me explain that I do not fighting gone from the game, as the fight has its place in hockey and both combatants know the risk they take before they drop the gloves. This was not a fight. This was an attack. If Thornton did this in public, he would be doing jail time.

What Shawn Thornton did was stupid.

How the league looks the other way is just plain careless.

Well said.

[ihabs1993]

Well said.

Thanks for the read!

[flyercanuck]

@ihabs1993

 

I don't think 15 games for a guys first offence is looking the other way. This isn't something he does on a regular basis. And for a tough guy he usually plays the game on the good side of the edge. He made a bad decision and he's going to pay for it. Now if you want to give repeat offenders more games I'm all for it.

[blocker]

I think Neal should get at least as much as Thornton.  Thornton went out of character because of rage.  Neal's offense was a calculated attempt to injure.  

 

Polaris is right when he stresses the injury suffered by Orpik.  We should be punished more if we hurt someone else by our actions.  But, part of punishment should be to deter potential infractions.  While the NHL can't control the anger players feel, it can control deliberate, cold behaviour such as Neal's. 

[ihabs1993]

I think Neal should get at least as much as Thornton.  Thornton went out of character because of rage.  Neal's offense was a calculated attempt to injure.  

 

Polaris is right when he stresses the injury suffered by Orpik.  We should be punished more if we hurt someone else by our actions.  But, part of punishment should be to deter potential infractions.  While the NHL can't control the anger players feel, it can control deliberate, cold behaviour such as Neal's. 

I completely disagree. I think Injury should have absolutely no say in the punishment of a player. You can hit someone in an illegal way and not hurt them. Does that make it legal? You've gotta look at it both ways. Because what happens if a player gets hurt on a hit that is probably legal? Should the player get suspended? Of course not.

I think Neal should have gotten more because of the Intent to injure Marchand. Marchand hurt or healthy after that hit, Neal should have gotten eight games.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@ihabs1993

 

I don't think 15 games for a guys first offence is looking the other way. This isn't something he does on a regular basis. And for a tough guy he usually plays the game on the good side of the edge. He made a bad decision and he's going to pay for it. Now if you want to give repeat offenders more games I'm all for it.

Agreed.

But overall the game has been going downhill.

[B21]

Agreed.

But overall the game has been going downhill.

 

And it will continue until they really starting hitting these guys with longer suspensions.

 

What was 2 games should be 5.

 

What was five should be ten.

 

And so on...

[flyercanuck]

And it will continue until they really starting hitting these guys with longer suspensions.

 

What was 2 games should be 5.

 

What was five should be ten.

 

And so on...

 

 

This I agree with. But I still think Thorntons 15 was enough. If he ever does anything like that again you hit him with 25. That's not only a lot of games to miss, but a big chunk of your bank account for someone who's not at the highend of the payscale.

[Polaris922]

This I agree with. But I still think Thorntons 15 was enough. If he ever does anything like that again you hit him with 25. That's not only a lot of games to miss, but a big chunk of your bank account for someone who's not at the highend of the payscale.

I don't. Go to a local shopping mall and do that to someone and see how long of a "suspension" you get. Lol. At some point you have to weigh in the repeated nature of the offense. In ANY court in North America taking someone down and ground pounding them is a much greater offense than kicking a guy once while he's down. Especially when you add the premeditated nature and the fact that Orpik was engaged with others at the time.

In fact... Why wasn't Thornton charged the way Bertuzzi was? Oh yeah.. It was his home ice...

Edited December 18, 2013 by Polaris922

[B21]

This I agree with. But I still think Thorntons 15 was enough. If he ever does anything like that again you hit him with 25. That's not only a lot of games to miss, but a big chunk of your bank account for someone who's not at the highend of the payscale.

 

Same page. I thought 15 for Thornton was fair.

[flyercanuck]

I don't. Go to a local shopping mall and do that to someone and see how long of a "suspension" you get. Lol. At some point you have to weigh in the repeated nature of the offense. In ANY court in North America taking someone down and ground pounding them is a much greater offense than kicking a guy once while he's down. Especially when you add the premeditated nature and the fact that Orpik was engaged with others at the time.

In fact... Why wasn't Thornton charged the way Bertuzzi was? Oh yeah.. It was his home ice...

 

If I go to a local shopping mall and start throwing clean bodychecks and dump a bag of pucks and start blasting them all over I'll get arrested too. Not the same thing. Like I said, if Thornton does anything like this again (and that 18 months amnesty thing is bs too) throw the book at him....even if it IS against the Pens.

[Polaris922]

If I go to a local shopping mall and start throwing clean bodychecks and dump a bag of pucks and start blasting them all over I'll get arrested too. Not the same thing. Like I said, if Thornton does anything like this again (and that 18 months amnesty thing is bs too) throw the book at him....even if it IS against the Pens.

There are a lot of things that get us arrested... But my point was an assault is an assault.

Ironically Thornton gave an interview just weeks prior to this about how cowardly and wrong it is to attack an opponent from behind. Said its one of the lowest things you can do on the ice. I've heard he said such acts are an assault, not "the code" but I can't find an actual quote! Theres a reference linking his words to the Bertuzzi incident but that looks questionable too. Lol.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

Fighting is part of hockey. Fighting doesn't belong in the mall. What Thornton did was NOT fighting and he was suspended for it. The longest suspension Shanahan has given out and the guy just came up for his first time. It took Matt Cooke 9 suspensions, multiple headshots and careers ended before he came anywhere close to that length of suspension. 

 

It sucks when it happens to your player. But when you have super-multi- repeat headshot offenders on your own team getting slaps on the wrist and Thornton gets 15 (and I won't get into some previouis Flyer suspensions for first offences) I really don't think you should complain.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Fighting is part of hockey. Fighting doesn't belong in the mall. What Thornton did was NOT fighting and he was suspended for it. The longest suspension Shanahan has given out and the guy just came up for his first time. It took Matt Cooke 9 suspensions, multiple headshots and careers ended before he came anywhere close to that length of suspension.

It sucks when it happens to your player. But when you have super-multi- repeat headshot offenders on your own team getting slaps on the wrist and Thornton gets 15 (and I won't get into some previouis Flyer suspensions for first offences) I really don't think you should complain.

I'm not complaining about 15 games, I'm supporting it. I'm stunned there are people who think the Neal hit to Marchand is worse. I respect some of the folks feeling that way or my words about that opinion would be much harsher. That was the debate i was posting about. And in fairness, this wasn't a "hit to the head". It was an assault from behind on an unaware target engaged with other business. I don't care who it is it disgusts me. I still hate Bertuzzi to this day for his attack on Moore.

If we get any super-multi-repeat headshot offenders on my team let me know. I haven't seen any. If you're still referring to Cooke, your numbers are confusing. He got 2 in '08 for a head hit, 2 in '09 for a head hit, then 10 in '11 for a head hit. Strike three. Even throwing in his 4 game for hitting from behind in '10 (not a head hit) I don't see 9 suspensions. I also saw the Pens wash their hands of him when that contract expired.

So who are you talking about??

Edited December 21, 2013 by Polaris922

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

Here's Cookes suspension history

 

 2011/04/27        Missed the last 10 games of the regular season and 7 playoff games (suspension). (17)

2011/03/21        Suspended by the NHL for the remainder of the season and the first round of the playoffs.

2011/02/20        Missed 4 games (suspension). (4)

2011/02/09        Suspended by the NHL for four games.

2009/12/04        Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/11/29        Suspended by the NHL for two games.

2009/01/31        Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/01/27        Suspended by the NHL for 2 games.

2004/02/21        Suspended by the NHL for 2 games. (2) [TSN.CA]

 

If you re-read my post you'll  see I said Cooke had 9 suspensions before he came close to what Thornton got on his very first. He ended at least one career with his headhunting. There's a reason he's #1 on almost every non-Pen fans list of dirty players.

 

Neal has been suspended 3 times for headshots, got off on another with the lamest excuse, has been fined and warned by the NHL several other times. This can't be news to you.

 

Like I said, Thorntons never been up for suspension before and hopefully he learns from this. It took Cooke NINE suspensions and plenty of other cheapshots to apparently change his ways. Neal obviously thinks targetting players heads is fair game....wonder how he'd feel if players started targetting his head?

[nossagog]

@Polaris922

 

Here's Cookes suspension history

 

 2011/04/27        Missed the last 10 games of the regular season and 7 playoff games (suspension). (17)

2011/03/21        Suspended by the NHL for the remainder of the season and the first round of the playoffs.

2011/02/20        Missed 4 games (suspension). (4)

2011/02/09        Suspended by the NHL for four games.

2009/12/04        Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/11/29        Suspended by the NHL for two games.

2009/01/31        Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/01/27        Suspended by the NHL for 2 games.

2004/02/21        Suspended by the NHL for 2 games. (2) [TSN.CA]

 

If you re-read my post you'll  see I said Cooke had 9 suspensions before he came close to what Thornton got on his very first. He ended at least one career with his headhunting. There's a reason he's #1 on almost every non-Pen fans list of dirty players.

 

Neal has been suspended 3 times for headshots, got off on another with the lamest excuse, has been fined and warned by the NHL several other times. This can't be news to you.

 

Like I said, Thorntons never been up for suspension before and hopefully he learns from this. It took Cooke NINE suspensions and plenty of other cheapshots to apparently change his ways. Neal obviously thinks targetting players heads is fair game....wonder how he'd feel if players started targetting his head?

I'll not defend him, never did, but whose career did he end?  I hope your not talking Savard.   Yes Cooke clocked him and if I was on this board at the time you would have heard me call him out for what I called a cheap dirty hit,  but it wasn't Savards first or last consussion playing hockey.

 

By the way, your double counting the data above, again, I'm not defending him, but facts are facts.

Edited December 22, 2013 by nossagog

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Here's Cookes suspension history

2011/04/27 Missed the last 10 games of the regular season and 7 playoff games (suspension). (17)

2011/03/21 Suspended by the NHL for the remainder of the season and the first round of the playoffs.

2011/02/20 Missed 4 games (suspension). (4)

2011/02/09 Suspended by the NHL for four games.

2009/12/04 Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/11/29 Suspended by the NHL for two games.

2009/01/31 Missed 2 games (suspension). (2)

2009/01/27 Suspended by the NHL for 2 games.

2004/02/21 Suspended by the NHL for 2 games. (2) [TSN.CA]

If you re-read my post you'll see I said Cooke had 9 suspensions before he came close to what Thornton got on his very first. He ended at least one career with his headhunting. There's a reason he's #1 on almost every non-Pen fans list of dirty players.

Neal has been suspended 3 times for headshots, got off on another with the lamest excuse, has been fined and warned by the NHL several other times. This can't be news to you.

Like I said, Thorntons never been up for suspension before and hopefully he learns from this. It took Cooke NINE suspensions and plenty of other cheapshots to apparently change his ways. Neal obviously thinks targetting players heads is fair game....wonder how he'd feel if players started targetting his head?

That's doubling up bud. I won't defend Cooke either, but the Pens made him clean up and then let him walk. Does that make them evil too? Cooke had plenty of dirty hits... But he never slew footed someone from behind and punched then repeatedly in the face while they were down either.

You can yap about dirty hits to-from any player in the league, but there are only a few McSorley - Bertuzzi - Thornton incidents out there. And they're revolting to watch.

[flyercanuck]

I didn't know what you meant by "doubling up" until I actually read the list. I just quickly copied it. But the fact is it took several  suspensions plus plenty of warnings to get him to clean up his act. Any list of "dirtiest player ever" will have him at or near the top. I doubt Thornton is on any.

 

Again, nobody is saying what Thornton did was right. But it's a single offence that he hopefully learns from. Meanwhile Cooke and Neal have been  targetting heads over and over and over and only one of them changed that...after their team made them after almost a decade of dirty hockey.

[B21]

@Polaris922

 

Fighting is part of hockey. Fighting doesn't belong in the mall. What Thornton did was NOT fighting and he was suspended for it. The longest suspension Shanahan has given out and the guy just came up for his first time. It took Matt Cooke 9 suspensions, multiple headshots and careers ended before he came anywhere close to that length of suspension. 

 

It sucks when it happens to your player. But when you have super-multi- repeat headshot offenders on your own team getting slaps on the wrist and Thornton gets 15 (and I won't get into some previouis Flyer suspensions for first offences) I really don't think you should complain.

 

This poor Steve Downie bit is getting old, FC.  That wasn't just a 2-game cheap shot/sneaky elbow to the head.  It was an absolute deliberate attempt to injure a player...and it was successful.  Downie's skates were at least 2' off the ice at the time of impact and at one point during the follow through he was literally parallel to the ice.

 

As I mentioned in another thread, 4 games after he returned from that suspension he sucker punches Jason Blake...and gets a warning? 

 

The league has been more than fair with that POS.

 

Even if you think 20 was unfair for the McAmmond hit, the league more than made up for it with nothing more than a warning for the Blake incident.

 

Or maybe his hit on Roman Josi? Sure looked like elbow/shoulder to the head to me.  Yet nothing from the Department of Player safety after a review. Surely a guy with his history would get something. I've seen a lot less get 2 games. But the unfair NHL let him off.

 

Since you brought Cooke into this, he has been suspended 5 times (not 9) in his career for a total of 27 games. 4 of those suspensions and 25 of the 27 games happened while he was with the Pens. The Pens fans here have all agreed on many occasions that it took too long to send a message to Cooke.  That said, it had nothing at all to do with the color of his jersey.  If anything, the league took notice after he signed with the Pens.  You said yourself....a decade of dirty play...yet he kept getting passes until he got to Pittsburgh.

 

Sometimes a first offense warants a long suspension....as in Downie's case and as in Thornton's case.

[nossagog]

I didn't know what you meant by "doubling up" until I actually read the list. I just quickly copied it. But the fact is it took several  suspensions plus plenty of warnings to get him to clean up his act. Any list of "dirtiest player ever" will have him at or near the top. I doubt Thornton is on any.

 

Again, nobody is saying what Thornton did was right. But it's a single offence that he hopefully learns from. Meanwhile Cooke and Neal have been  targetting heads over and over and over and only one of them changed that...after their team made them after almost a decade of dirty hockey.

I hope that after this episode with Neal that Mario stepped in.  He's more important to the team scoring goal, turn him around like they did Cooke.

[Polaris922]

Neal is one of the premier wingers in the game. He needs to play physical, but leave the dirty stuff for the bedroom.

[flyercanuck]

Neal is one of the premier wingers in the game. He needs to play physical, but leave the dirty stuff for the bedroom.

 

 

My point exactly.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

The poor Steve Downie thing goes on as long as guys on the Pens complain about a first offender getting "only" 15 games when they have repeat offenders getting wrist slaps. And that gets pretty old too...if you're not a Pens fan.

[B21]

@B21

 

The poor Steve Downie thing goes on as long as guys on the Pens complain about a first offender getting "only" 15 games when they have repeat offenders getting wrist slaps. And that gets pretty old too...if you're not a Pens fan.

 

Not this Pens fan.

 

And again - Cooke's suspensions (or lack of depending on one's take) is about Cooke only - nothing at all to do with the Pens other than that is who he was playing for when the league started cracking down on him.  If you want to be upset about the league's handling of Cooke, be upset about his time with Vancouver. He got nailed pretty hard while he was in Pittsburgh.