G not on Olympic Team Canada...wow

[B21]

You should really do some research on MSL before posting, because you're obviously good at research.

 

05-06 - 31 goals, 60 points - 30 goals wouldn't be considered "meh" by anyone's standards

06-07 - 43 goals, 102 points - "meh"?

07-08 - 25 goals, 83 points - "meh"?

08-09 - 30 goals, 80 points - "meh"?

09-10 - 29 goals, 94 points - "meh"?

10-11 - 31 goals, 99 points - "meh"?

11-12 - 25 goals, 74 points (77 games) - "meh"?

12-13 - 17 goals, 60 points (48 games) - "meh"?

 

Neal has one (1) season that beat's MSL's "lowest" point total since 03-04. He's scored more than 30 - once. In the shortened season last year when MSL had 60 points? Neal had 36.

 

This season MSL has 40 points in 43 games. Stamkos has only played 17 this season.

 

MSL is many, many times the player James Neal is. Always has been. Always will be.

 

There is simply no comparison between MSL and Neal and no evidence whatsoever that MSL is in any way, shape or form a "product" of playing with VLC or Stamkos.

 

 

You don't think I did research?   I just included a few more years than you did and ran VLC's stats along side MSL.  Here are MSL's that numbers I used. 2000-01 was his third overall and first "full" season though he did play 56 games in 99-00 with Calgary. VLC's rookie year was 98-99.

 

2000-01……78 GP / 40 PTS - Meh

2001-02……53 GP / 35 PTS - Meh

2002-03……82 GP / 70 PTS – VLC 78 PTS (Good - not great so yeah..."meh").

2003-04……82 GP / 96 PTS (Art Ross) - VLC only 66 PTS

2004-05……Lockout

2006-07……82 GP / 102 PTS à VLC w/ 52 Goals & 108 PTS

2007-08……82 GP / 83 PTS à VLC 92 PTS

2008-09……82 GP / 80 PTS - VLC 67 PTS in 77 GP

2009-10……82 GP / 94 PTS à Stamkos 2^nd Season/Breakout Year

 

Aside from the Art Ross year in 2003-04, MSL's 3 best seasons (prior to Stamkos) completely coincide with VLC's 3 best years during that time.  So who made who? Neither had much to write home about until 2002-03. Then - aside from ONE season, it's pretty clear that when MSL had a big year, so did VLC...or when VLC had a big year, so did MSL.  

 

After VLC's career year, MSL had a 20 point drop the next two seasons....until Stamkos' breakout year of 2009-10. Then it's back up to well over a point per game again...something that (aside from the Art Ross year) only happened when VLC also had a similar year.

 

So it's not outlandish to say MLS's numbers may have been...improved?...by who he was playing with at the time. Especially in the case of these last 5 seasons with Stamkos. 

 

Back to my original point...even thought that it is a fact for MLS, it's never mentioned.  I just did here and you'd think I blaphemed the Pope. Of course it is when Neal's recent success comes up.....

 

For the record, I would take MSL over Neal now though its close I/M/H/O. Ask me again though in 2-3 (MSL in his prime vs. Neal).  

[brelic]

who made who?

 

[B21]

You are failing to allow for degrees, here. Yes, MSL's numbers go up when he has ultra high calibre linemates. Of course. Thing is, they go up from an already very high level. His least productive season after his sophomore year was equal to kunitz's BEST non-crosby season. He is at an entirely different level, and only made that much better by his linemates.

Neal comes closer, but he again was well below a point per game until malkin became his center.

 

I swear Flyers fans cannot read. 

 

MSL > Neal > ...........................Kunitz.

 

However, if one is being truly fair you cannot dismiss who MSL had as linemates throughout his career as a non-factor as far as his point totals which are kind of a big measure (Kunitz aside) as to how good a player is.

 

Stamkos is an all everything player. Best finisher in the game.  So it's not a coincidence that 3 of St. Louis' PPG+ seasons (and 6 of his best 9 overall seasons) have happened playing with Stamkos? Not a coincidence that 2 of the other 3 PPG seasons coincided with similar career-like years by VLC? 

 

Stamkos could score 50 goals with sheep passing to him.

 

Again - my original point was that I didn't think Neal was given the same benefit of doubt that other players are when it comes to linemates and MSL was my example. The numbers bear that out.  Eyeball test? Of course MSL > Neal.

 

I'm right there with everyone else when it comes to how much Crosby has done for Kunitz. Not even sure why your Kunitz point is in there.

[B21]

It's also ludicrilous.

 

You don't have to rely on the "eye test" to say that a six time "point per game" player is better than a guy who has reached a point per game in his career once.

 

To declare a point-per-game player to be "meh" is to call into question one's objectivity and hockey knowledge.

 

Likewise to declare a player who has 40 points in 43 games a "product" of playing with a player who has only played 17 games.

 

it's ludicrous on the face of it.

 

Except that I never called a PPG player "meh". I said he had a few "meh" seasons which he did.

 

Oh - and I never said Neal was better than MSL. Merely a comparison to prove an unrelated point.

 

Congrats on your 26 game sample of St. Louis sans Stamkos. If that's what passes for a big enough sample size than James Neal and his 35 points in 25 games must be Mario reincarnted.

 

Any particular reason why 6 of MSL's 9 best PPG seasons have happened since Stamkos arrived?

 

6 of 6 with Stamkos. 3 of 7 sans Stamkos (and I assume you can research his linemate's numbers on 2 of those 3 seasons). 

 

I thought you were above the spin.

[JackStraw]

You don't have to rely on the "eye test" to say that a six time "point per game" player is better than a guy who has reached a point per game in his career once.

 

But I can if I want to!

[JackStraw]

It's also ludicrilous.

 

Ludicrously ludicrous.

[flyercanuck]

The Olympics are next month, not the last three seasons... And where is his play right now?? Yeah... Thought so...

 

Huh? Am I missing something? Is Neal playing in the Olympics? Cause that's who he was comparing Giroux with in the bolded part that stated it was hard to argue with Neals production over the last 3 seasons. 

 

As for his play right now...well he's over a ppg in his last 25 games. Is that any good?

 

edit: lol, didn't realize there was 4 pages of back and forth 

[brelic]

Ludicrously ludicrous.

 

Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

[JackStraw]

Did you see that ludicrous display last night?

 

Probably not. I assume you're not talking about Rinaldo's three stars worthy performance?

[radoran]

You don't think I did research?   I just included a few more years than you did and ran VLC's stats along side MSL.  Here are MSL's that numbers I used. 2000-01 was his third overall and first "full" season though he did play 56 games in 99-00 with Calgary. VLC's rookie year was 98-99.

 

2000-01……78 GP / 40 PTS - Meh

2001-02……53 GP / 35 PTS - Meh

2002-03……82 GP / 70 PTS – VLC 78 PTS (Good - not great so yeah..."meh").

2003-04……82 GP / 96 PTS (Art Ross) - VLC only 66 PTS

2004-05……Lockout

2006-07……82 GP / 102 PTS à VLC w/ 52 Goals & 108 PTS

2007-08……82 GP / 83 PTS à VLC 92 PTS

2008-09……82 GP / 80 PTS - VLC 67 PTS in 77 GP

2009-10……82 GP / 94 PTS à Stamkos 2^nd Season/Breakout Year

 

Aside from the Art Ross year in 2003-04, MSL's 3 best seasons (prior to Stamkos) completely coincide with VLC's 3 best years during that time.  So who made who? Neither had much to write home about until 2002-03. Then - aside from ONE season, it's pretty clear that when MSL had a big year, so did VLC...or when VLC had a big year, so did MSL.  

 

After VLC's career year, MSL had a 20 point drop the next two seasons....until Stamkos' breakout year of 2009-10. Then it's back up to well over a point per game again...something that (aside from the Art Ross year) only happened when VLC also had a similar year.

 

So it's not outlandish to say MLS's numbers may have been...improved?...by who he was playing with at the time. Especially in the case of these last 5 seasons with Stamkos. 

 

Back to my original point...even thought that it is a fact for MLS, it's never mentioned.  I just did here and you'd think I blaphemed the Pope. Of course it is when Neal's recent success comes up.....

 

For the record, I would take MSL over Neal now though its close I/M/H/O. Ask me again though in 2-3 (MSL in his prime vs. Neal).  

 

Neal had a five point game this season:

Goal on the power play (with Crosby, assists to Kunitz, Niskanen)

Goal: assist - Crosby

Secondary assist - Crosby goal

Secondary assist - Kunitz goal, Crosby primary

Power play goal.

 

His last five points this season?

Malkin goal (assist)

PP goal (Crosby assist)

unassisted goal

Malkin goal (assist)

Kunitz goal (Crosby assist, secondary for Neal)

 

then the five-point game above. Before that?

 

Crosby goal (primary)

Jokinen goal (secondary)

Goal

 

So, of his past 13 points, three didn't involve Crosby or Malkin.

 

Let's look at the opening of the season

Secondary assist (Malkin primary)

PPG - Malkin/Crosby assists

Secondary assist (Malkin primary)

Primary assist (Crosby goal)

Goal (Malkin secondary)

Primary assist (Kunitz goal)

Primary assist (Malkin goal)

Goal (Malkin assist)

Goal (Malkin primary assist)

Goal (Malkin secondary)

Goal

Secondary assist (Crosby goal)

Primary assist (Letang goal)

PPG (Malkin primary)

Primary assist (Kunitz goal, Malkin secondary)

Goal (Malkin assist)

Goal (Malkin primary)

Secondary assist (Kunitz goal, Crosby primary)

Primary assist (Kunitz goal, Crosby secondary)

Goal

Secondary assist (Niskanen goal)

Secondary assist (Zolnieczky goal)

 

of his 35 points this season? 7 don't directly involve Crosby/Malkin.

 

MSL has 24 points in 26 games without Stamkos this season.

 

MSL - PPG player six times. Neal? 1.

MSL four 30+ goal seasons. Neal? 1 - with Malkin/Crosby.

 

You really cannot dismiss who Neal had as linemates throughout his career as a non-factor as far as his point totals which are kind of a big measure (Kunitz aside) as to how good a player is.

[brelic]

Probably not. I assume you're not talking about Rinaldo's three stars worthy performance?

 

Ha! No, I was making an obscure reference to a British show... hoping someone on here might catch it

[B21]

@radoran

 

I'm not dismissing who Neal has had as linemates.  But if one is going to say he's nothing more than a product of who he plays with then the same thought process should also apply to many other players...MSL being an example where the numbers bear that out. Also not saying MSL would be a "bad" player sans VCL or SS - but he would not be a consistent PPG guy either (sorry - the 1/4 sample from this season doesn't cut it).

 

Do the same thing with MSL for any 10-15 game stretch when Stamkos has been on his line and you will find the same trend.

 

Too bad - that was a lot of effort to prove...well...something I've agreed with from the get go.

 

PS - I love the continued reference to 6 PPG seasons (3 w/ SS and 2 w/ VLC) for MSL as if that is a fair/relevant comparison when Neal hasn't even finished his sixth NHL season...not that my point is comparing the two. But since you brought it up...

 

MSL: 1 PPG season among his first 6...

Neal: 2 PPG seasons among his first 6 (includes at pace this year...and I know how big a fan your are of using "at pace" to make a case).

[B21]

Ha! No, I was making an obscure reference to a British show... hoping someone on here might catch it

 

Yeah - sorry. Saw that post but video is blocked at the office.

[radoran]

@radoran

 

I'm not dismissing who Neal has had as linemates.  But if one is going to say he's nothing more than a product of who he plays with then the same thought process should also apply to many other players...MSL being an example where the numbers bear that out. Also not saying MSL would be a "bad" player sans VCL or SS - but he would not be a consistent PPG guy either (sorry - the 1/4 sample from this season doesn't cut it).

 

Do the same thing with MSL for any 10-15 game stretch when Stamkos has been on his line and you will find the same trend.

 

Too bad - that was a lot of effort to prove...well...something I've agreed with from the get go.

 

PS - I love the continued reference to 6 PPG seasons (3 w/ SS and 2 w/ VLC) for MSL as if that is a fair/relevant comparison when Neal hasn't even finished his sixth NHL season...not that my point is comparing the two. But since you brought it up...

 

MSL: 1 PPG season among his first 6...

Neal: 2 PPG seasons among his first 6 (includes at pace this year...and I know how big a fan your are of using "at pace" to make a case).

 

It wasn't really a lot of effort - real simple to click through the game log on Yahoo! (despite their godawful redesign).

 

I don't at all dispute that Neal is going to be put with Malkin/Crosby and as a result will see a lot of his points come with them and Stamkos will obviously benefit from MSL's presence in the same way, but as this season (when MSL is 37) shows - 24 points in 26 games - he is hardly a product of his linemates. He makes his linemates better.

 

How many multi-point games does Neal have this season without Malkin/Crosby? None. MSL without Stamkos? Six.

 

The question isn't "what does the player do when his 'better' linemate is on the ice?" the question is "what does he do without the 'better' linemate on the ice?"

 

Neal doesn't do much.

[JackStraw]

But if one is going to say he's nothing more than a product of who he plays with then the same thought process should also apply to many other players...

 

But no one is actually saying that. What people are saying is, what is he when he's not playing with the best (or 2nd best) player in the world? His career says he's a good player, not an all star, never made an Olympic team (and at 34 he's not exactly just hitting his peak), never scored 30 goals. That's not a resume that gets you on Canada's Olympic team, but it doesn't mean he's garbage either.

Edited January 9, 2014 by JackStraw

[fanaticV3.0]

Where are you right now?

 

At work. You?

[B21]

It wasn't really a lot of effort - real simple to click through the game log on Yahoo! (despite their godawful redesign).

 

I don't at all dispute that Neal is going to be put with Malkin/Crosby and as a result will see a lot of his points come with them and Stamkos will obviously benefit from MSL's presence in the same way, but as this season (when MSL is 37) shows - 24 points in 26 games - he is hardly a product of his linemates. He makes his linemates better.

 

How many multi-point games does Neal have this season without Malkin/Crosby? None. MSL without Stamkos? Six.

 

The question isn't "what does the player do when his 'better' linemate is on the ice?" the question is "what does he do without the 'better' linemate on the ice?"

 

Neal doesn't do much.

 

Yahoo?  NHL.com is the most user friendly site as far as looking up and sorting statistics (I/M/H/O).  hockeyreference.com is very good, too.

 

Back to MSL/Neal.  I get what you are saying. I just see it less in favor of MSL and more a product of Stamkos.

 

Is MSL going to have as many assists with an average player on his opposite wing versus Stamkos? No.

 

Is Stamkos going to have fewer goals with a linemate who doesn't have quite the playmaking abilities as MSL? I would argue yes.

 

Splitting hairs really. MSL is a great player. It's just that "level" of greatness is helped but who he has played with.

Edited January 9, 2014 by B21

[radoran]

Yahoo?  NHL.com is the most user friendly site as far as looking up and sorting statistics (I/M/H/O).  hockeyreference.com is very good, too.

 

Back to MSL/Neal.  I get what you are saying. I just see it less in favor of MSL and more a product of Stamkos.

 

Is MSL going to have as many assists with an average player on his opposite wing versus Stamkos? No.

 

Is Stamkos going to have fewer goals with a linemate who doesn't have quite the playmaking abilities as MSL? I would argue yes.

 

Splitting hairs really. MSL is a great player. It's just that "level" of greatness is helped but who he has played with.

 

If you are just going to ignore any evidence to the contrary, you are absolutely correct.

 

If one looks at the evidence, it's pretty clear that MSL can produce no matter who is on the other wing or at center. His two goals last night came with assists from Victor Hedman, Teddy Purcell and Matt Carle.  His three-point game before that involved Tyler Johnson, Victor Hedman, Valterri Filppula, Teddy Purcell and Ondrej Palat. The multi-pointer before that? Sami Salo, Tyler Johnson, Ondrej Palat.

 

Are the Victor Hedmans, Tyler Johnsons and Ondrej Palats of the world making MSL a better player? Or is MSL making them better?

 

We report, you decide.

[Polaris922]

I'm just glad Crosby has Kunitz on his line... I mean Kunitz factors in to like... 80% of Crosby's points. I bet Crosby wouldn't even be considered if it weren't for playing with Kunitz.

[Polaris922]

Again, when Giroux is on the ice, the other team is focusing on Giroux. When Neal and Malkin are on the ice, the first check isn't Neal. Stats are stats and reality is reality.

If Neal wasn't such an asshole, I'd be happy to have him as a Flyer, though.

And if Malkin had Giroux on his wing you could say...

When Giroux and Malkin are on the ice, the first check isn't Giroux. Stats are stats and reality is reality.

[radoran]

I'm just glad Crosby has Kunitz on his line... I mean Kunitz factors in to like... 80% of Crosby's points. I bet Crosby wouldn't even be considered if it weren't for playing with Kunitz.

 

It's a nice line but, as usual, hyperbole is not your friend.

 

Going back to the beginning of December, Kunitz figures into 19 of 33 Crosby points - 56%

 

14 of Crosby's 24 goals this season have come without a Kunitz assist - 58%

 

By way of contrast, only 5 of Kunitz's 23 goals this season have come without a Crosby assist - 21%

 

One was a penalty shot.

 

So, clearly, Kunitz is the guy who needs Crosby to figure into 80% of his points

[B21]

If you are just going to ignore any evidence to the contrary, you are absolutely correct.

 

If one looks at the evidence, it's pretty clear that MSL can produce no matter who is on the other wing or at center. His two goals last night came with assists from Victor Hedman, Teddy Purcell and Matt Carle.  His three-point game before that involved Tyler Johnson, Victor Hedman, Valterri Filppula, Teddy Purcell and Ondrej Palat. The multi-pointer before that? Sami Salo, Tyler Johnson, Ondrej Palat.

 

Are the Victor Hedmans, Tyler Johnsons and Ondrej Palats of the world making MSL a better player? Or is MSL making them better?

 

We report, you decide.

 

I'm ignoring the 26 games this year w/o Stamkos.  You're ignoring the rest of his career when his numbers are noticably better with Stamkos and with VCL in his prime (2003-04 being the exception).

 

Fair and balanced.

[radoran]

I'm ignoring the 26 games this year w/o Stamkos.  You're ignoring the rest of his career when his numbers are noticably better with Stamkos and with VCL in his prime (2003-04 being the exception).

 

Fair and balanced.

 

We can chase in circles all you want. I'm not ignoring anything, actually.

 

in 10-11, VLC played only 65 games - 54 points, 29 assists. MSL 82 games, 31 goals, 99 points

11-12 VLC 64 games, 27 assist, 49 points. MSL 77 games, 25 goals, 74 points

 

Even going back to full seasons together

09-10 VLC 82 games, 46 assists, 70 points; MSL 82 games, 29 goals, 94 points

08-09 VLC 77 games, 38 assists, 67 points; MSL 82 games, 30 goals, 80 points

 

So, aside from MSL playing more games, scoring more goals and having more points than VLC, you may have a point...

[JackStraw]

[B21]

We can chase in circles all you want. I'm not ignoring anything, actually.

 

in 10-11, VLC played only 65 games - 54 points, 29 assists. MSL 82 games, 31 goals, 99 points

11-12 VLC 64 games, 27 assist, 49 points. MSL 77 games, 25 goals, 74 points

 

Even going back to full seasons together

09-10 VLC 82 games, 46 assists, 70 points; MSL 82 games, 29 goals, 94 points

08-09 VLC 77 games, 38 assists, 67 points; MSL 82 games, 30 goals, 80 points

 

So, aside from MSL playing more games, scoring more goals and having more points than VLC, you may have a point...

 

Kinda ignoring that I've said all along that it was the benefit of playing with Stamkos starting in 09-10 (when VLC was past his prime and rapidly declining).  All subsequent years are all about the Stamkos/MSL connection. Not VLC.

 

And of course...08-09 VLC was down to 67 PTS (from 92 the year before and 108 the year before that). MLS was down to 80 from 83 from 102 those same prior years.

 

VLC's decline continues in 09-10 and beyond (70, 54, 49) while MLS hits 94, 99 and 74. Oddly enough, 09-10 was Stamkos' breakout season.

  

Interesting.