Norris Trophy, Fun with numbers

[nossagog]

Okay, I'm board.

 

Haven't really had any exciting playoff games this weekend. So I delved into NHL stats.

 

So here ya go, stats to ponder today from some of the top Norris trophy contenders(based on last years top players):

Name                 ES           PP         PK             Total             ES%            PP%             PK%

PK Subban  19:56:38    4:30:49   0:46:20    1:13:47        79.05%        17.89%          3.06%

C. Letang    19:37:05    4:05:35    2:11:48    1:54:28        75.72%       15.80%           8.48%

D. Keith       19:33:10    3:09:35    2:17:30    1:00:15       78.20%       12.64%            9.17%

E. Karlson   20:59:35    4:37:12    1:40:18    3:17:05       76.94%        16.93%           6.13%

S. Weber    21:33:17     3:09:32    2:46:15    3:29:04       78.43%       11.49%           10.08%
Z. Chara     19:23:20     2:22:07    3:12:16    0:57:43       77.67%         9.49%          12.84%

 

 Sorry, didn't have the numbers for Shea Weber, and if I did not post for your teams best defenseman I'm sorry,  but anyway, here's my thought for the day.  This came up looking at game stats over the last few weeks.  I kept looking at Canadians stats the past few weeks, and for the life of me, I swear over the last few weeks, Subban had 0 minutes on the PK.   So it got me thinking and looking for stats.

 

Anyway, this is for the current season. So I look at PK Subban, and based on my current view, I was not surprised to see that of the many of the top Norris candidates, he has by far the lowest percentage of time on the PK., and the highest percentage of time on the PP.

 

Last year I really could not believe that Subban was the winner of the Norris trophy, for the best defensive player in the league. And I cannot believe that last last years statistics would be much different than this years. But I guess my question is, if you are looking for the best defensemen in the league, wouldn't you think that they would probably have at least a more proportionate percentage of their time on the PK? Has  the Norris trophy simply become a popularity contest, or an award for the best offensive defensemen?

 

Really PK Subban as Norris Trophy winner?

Edited January 12, 2014 by nossagog

[flyercanuck]

Now you know how the rest of us views Kris Letang. And Subban has noone near Crosby and Malkins universe to play with. 

 

And I'll take Weber over either of them for my team right now for a playoff run. Or Keith. Or.... Ekblad. 

[jammer2]

@nossagog  All round, Duncan Kieth is the best d-man in this league, bar none. You could make a strong case for him winning it last year, and a stronger case this time around. One of the most underrated athletes in modern history.

[nossagog]

Now you know how the rest of us views Kris Letang. And Subban has noone near Crosby and Malkins universe to play with. 

 

And I'll take Weber over either of them for my team right now for a playoff run. Or Keith. Or.... Ekblad. 

@flyercanuck,  PLEASE don't mistake me for a COMPLETE Pens homer, partial homer is all I'll go with.  I have always felt that the Norris should NOT be focused on offensive numbers.  For the record, in NO year would I have voted for Tanger, although at least he takes a regular shift on the PK.

 

 

@jammer2, FYI

Name             ES             PP           PK           Total           ES%            PP%          PK%

D. Keith     19:33:10    3:09:35    2:17:30        1:00:15         78.20%      12.64%       9.17%

So I really like his balance in time percentages.

 

In the end, I'm looking at it this way.   Your BEST Defenseman is who'd you'd have out on the ice to prevent goals in key situations.  If you're not trusted to be on the ice on the PK, are you really a good defenseman?

Edited January 12, 2014 by nossagog

[nossagog]

FYI, gotta look at the spread sheet, the total number of minutes does not look correct, but the percentages based on the numbers looks good.

[flyercanuck]

@nossagog

 

For me your best defenceman should be your best DEFENCEman. Of course points are great, but like you said, if he can't prevent goals, he's not much of a defenceman. I think Pietrangelo is also better than Subban, Letang or Karlsson.

[nossagog]

Stupid Excel:

Name                 ES          PP         PK            Total          ES%          PP%               PK%

PK Subban 19:56:38    4:30:49    0:46:20    25:13:47    79.05%     17.89%          3.06%

C. Letang 19:37:05      4:05:35     2:11:48    25:54:28   75.72%     15.80%          8.48%

D. Keith 19:33:10        3:09:35      2:17:30    25:00:15   78.20%     12.64%          9.17%

E. Karlson 20:59:35    4:37:12      1:40:18    27:17:05   76.94%     16.93%          6.13%

S. Weber 21:33:17      3:09:32     2:46:15     27:29:04   78.43%     11.49%        10.08%

Z. Chara 19:23:20       2:22:07      3:12:16    24:57:43   77.67%     9.49%          12.84%

Edited January 12, 2014 by nossagog

[J0e Th0rnton]

@nossagog  All round, Duncan Kieth is the best d-man in this league, bar none. You could make a strong case for him winning it last year, and a stronger case this time around. One of the most underrated athletes in modern history.

Yup. Keith is a beast.

I was surprised as heck when I saw his offensive numbers today. He is a stay at home D

[jammer2]

@nossagog

 

For me your best defenceman should be your best DEFENCEman. Of course points are great, but like you said, if he can't prevent goals, he's not much of a defenceman. I think Pietrangelo is also better than Subban, Letang or Karlsson.

 

 I'd take Pietrangelo over Letang any day of the week....especially when factoring in age. Karlsson's stunning offense makes it about even, but if it was late in the game protecting a lead, I'd take Pietrangelo over any of the 3 you mentioned. Subban makes more mental errors than Pieter...so he gets a slight nod over PK because of that..although PK's shot is slightly better from the point. What a cannon PK has from back there.

[jammer2]

@nossagog  Ya know, it's a crying shame that DeKeyser on the Wings will never be mentioned for the Norris due to lack of offense....but wow, as a pure d-man, he is amazing. He sees the game so well, and plays this simple straight forward game that literally is mistake free on most nights. Reminds me of a Ken Morrow who can skate and think a bit better. As far as pure graceful stride, maybe top 5 % of the league from young DeKeyser.

[Polaris922]

When we discuss Norris I don't bother thinking who the best pure defenseman is because it's never awarded as such. I just look at offense first, THEN plus/minus and similar stats. Lets face it, if it were truly best defensive minded defenseman we'd have to rewrite the record books going back decades!

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

I don't think it necessarily has to be the best defensive-minded. To me it should be a guy who is really good in both ends of the rink...not the guy who puts up the most points aka Karlsson/Letang/Subban

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

I don't think it necessarily has to be the best defensive-minded. To me it should be a guy who is really good in both ends of the rink...not the guy who puts up the most points aka Karlsson/Letang/Subban

I'd have no problem with that either, but how will it be judged? Seriously there is no solid method for determining defensive play. It will just become a popularity contest if a different sort.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

Well they used to judge it that way. I'm sure they could figure a way out. They somehow managed to give it to Rod Langway....twice. It certainly wasn't for his offensive prowess. Chara, Pronger, Chelios, Keith, Lidstrom...those guys were all really good in your own end. If you don't want a guy out there when you're up a goal with a minute left, he doesn't deserve a Norris IMO.

 

They might give out the Selke to the  best defensive forward  with the most points but at least they take "defensive forward" into consideration. They can go back to "defenceman who can play a lick of D" just as easy instead of looking at points and the letter "D" beside "position" as the sole factor. When I see names like Green, Karlsson, Letang and Subban up for Norris consideration....it's like giving the Selke to Briere or Ovechkin.

[Commander Clueless]

When we discuss Norris I don't bother thinking who the best pure defenseman is because it's never awarded as such. I just look at offense first, THEN plus/minus and similar stats. Lets face it, if it were truly best defensive minded defenseman we'd have to rewrite the record books going back decades!

 

It's clearly awarded to the best overall defenseman in the league that year, including both offensive and defensive abilities. They have been doing a great job balancing both sides of what makes a defenseman valuable to their team.

 

I mean, just look at the selection of Erik Karls....pfffhahahahahaha.

 

Wait, are there any Sens fans on this board? Am I about to get Sens-smacked?

 

No but really they should just give it Lidstrom.

 

Retired? What does that have to do with anything?

 

This year, Mr. Keith is looking like he'll win by a fair margin, and honestly it would be well deserved.

[Commander Clueless]

it's like giving the Selke to Briere or Ovechkin.

 

I see your point, but even with the Selke, very rarely do you see it go to the pure defensive specialists. Selke winners seem to need to have some sort of decent offensive game as well.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[flyercanuck]

@Commander Clueless

 

Agree. But at least they are the highest scoring 2 way forwards. As opposed to the defensively challenged forward playing D that has been getting Norris trophies or consideration over the last few years.