Revisiting the Richard's Trade

[brelic]

Given that we know the two we had were not going to lead this organIzation to a cup, I'm not only "ok" with the trade, I'm happy about it. I don't regret the trades at all.

 

I don't agree that was a 'given'. We simply don't and will never know. They failed to do it up to that point... but we traded them at 26 years old - Giroux's age - when they were just entering their prime.

 

And that's where their story ends in Philly.

[fanaticV3.0]

Nobody is, not even Crosby. 

 

The Flyers didn't put the right supporting cast around them (i.e. defensemen and goaltenders). I think we were all set up front, especially with Giroux and JVR as up and comers. But as you can see even now, our defense still isn't fixed, and as good as Mason has been, he's still young and unproven in the playoffs (and hasn't managed to string together more than one strong season in the NHL).

 

So, even if Schenn, Simmonds, Couturier, and Jake all reach their potential and even exceed it, they won't be the ones stopping odd-man rushes, blocking shots, and stopping the puck. WIthout the right supporting cast (i.e. no glaring holes), it won't really matter how well they perform.

 

The next 3-5 years are pretty crucial in terms of Giroux's prime window. We'll see how Homer (Hextall?) builds around him at ALL positions.

 

I literally have no tolerance for this. And yes I can absolutely recognize our goaltending (in particular) situation that season was nothing more than lighting in a bottle, the clock striking midnight on Cinderella, or quite frankly not good enough. But nothing gets my blood boiling more than absolving a player their responsibility and pointing the finger upstairs instead of where it belongs. Those two were the core of some of the most inconsistent, lazy, show up when I feel like it teams I have ever seen. Talented, but horrible cornerstones. If you think this year or last was bad, need I remind you the fact that they not only missed the POs for the first time in years with those two here, but were the worst team in the league. Even at their best (a cup run), they barely managed to put together a .500 team.

 

I haven't even begun to scratch the surface on how many chances they were given. How many players around them were traded to address the locker room issues before it became painfully obvious they were the issue? Management went out and got them one of the best damn defenseman to play the sport. And what did they do? Cry that he was too mean to them. So don't give me this "management didn't" stuff. The players didn't and particularly those two. During that cup run they - along with Gagne - totally disappeared in that final series.

 

Oh and as far as Crosby goes, he makes players around him better. He is the guy that team depends on and he excels in that role. The same cannot be said those two twerps and their sore vaginas when they were here.

[mojo1917]

when i think back to the finals vs Chicago i can't help but think that if there was a better goaltender between the pipes for the Flyers this would be a completely different discussion. 

Leighton was atrocious in that series, he gave away game 1 for sure and was so shaky i need pepto just reflecting on his play.

So to say the Richards and Carter couldn't get it done here ...man i don't know, they were justthisclose with a terrible terrible goaltender behind them, Niemi was no daisy either but Leighton was hideous.  

the point being the Richards and Carter Flyers were right there to win the cup with a shooter tutor behind them. and they almost did.

that was a nice team, that had the right mix of guys to play in the tournament. 

i wonder had they won what the roster would look like now ?

[fanaticV3.0]

150%. 

 

The end is important as I'm saying on this board all the time. Who cares about fantasy hockey numbers, in the end winning a cup is ultimate goal as for player and fans as well. 

 

Yea I can hear it now, Carter missed the net and didn't put a puck high enough to send game 7 vs Chitown, but if you's re remember Richards and Carter were the Guys why Flyers has ended up in Cup finals. So I don;t want to hear all this sheep baaa... WE DON"T HAVE A CUP STILL!!!!

 

I think you mean Pronger. Prior to him, we saw what Richards and Carter were on their own. That's not to say they were bad, they had some good runs ,but Pronger put that core over the hump to the next level.

[brelic]

I literally have no tolerance for this. And yes I can absolutely recognize our goaltending (in particular) situation that season was nothing more than lighting in a bottle, the clock striking midnight on Cinderella, or quite frankly not good enough. But nothing gets my blood boiling more than absolving a player their responsibility and pointing the finger upstairs instead of where it belongs. Those two were the core of some of the most inconsistent, lazy, show up when I feel like it teams I have ever seen. Talented, but horrible cornerstones. If you think this year or last was bad, need I remind you the fact that they not only missed the POs for the first time in years with those two here, but were the worst team in the league. Even at their best (a cup run), they barely managed to put together a .500 team.

 

I haven't even begun to scratch the surface on how many chances they were given. How many players around them were traded to address the locker room issues before it became painfully obvious they were the issue? Management went out and got them one of the best damn defenseman to play the sport. And what did they do? Cry that he was too mean to them. So don't give me this "management didn't" stuff. The players didn't and particularly those two. During that cup run they - along with Gagne - totally disappeared in that final series.

 

Oh and as far as Crosby goes, he makes players around him better. He is the guy that team depends on and he excels in that role. The same cannot be said those two twerps and their sore vaginas when they were here.

 

I'm not absolving anyone of responsibility. In my very next post to you, I said that Richards and Carter failed to win a Cup in Philly. They had the team on their shoulders and - at 26 years old - the organization decided that they had failed and it was lights out on their little party.

[fanaticV3.0]

Trading for prospects requires patience. The Flyers team is better off with the trade right now, and hopefully more so as the years progress. Schenn especially is intriguing looking forward a year or two more.

Quick won that Cup in LA by the way. He was an impenetrable wall in front of the net.

 

LA had a really good core before even trading for Richards and Carter. Adding them only strengthened that. But you're right, Quick was the man that year. That team put up one of the best records in Stanley Cup Playoffs history and it was because of Quick. Richards and Carter were very lucky to have fallen into that situation.

[radoran]

I literally have no tolerance for this. And yes I can absolutely recognize our goaltending (in particular) situation that season was nothing more than lighting in a bottle, the clock striking midnight on Cinderella, or quite frankly not good enough. But nothing gets my blood boiling more than absolving a player their responsibility and pointing the finger upstairs instead of where it belongs. Those two were the core of some of the most inconsistent, lazy, show up when I feel like it teams I have ever seen. Talented, but horrible cornerstones. If you think this year or last was bad, need I remind you the fact that they not only missed the POs for the first time in years with those two here, but were the worst team in the league. Even at their best (a cup run), they barely managed to put together a .500 team.

 

I haven't even begun to scratch the surface on how many chances they were given. How many players around them were traded to address the locker room issues before it became painfully obvious they were the issue? Management went out and got them one of the best damn defenseman to play the sport. And what did they do? Cry that he was too mean to them. So don't give me this "management didn't" stuff. The players didn't and particularly those two. During that cup run they - along with Gagne - totally disappeared in that final series.

 

Oh and as far as Crosby goes, he makes players around him better. He is the guy that team depends on and he excels in that role. The same cannot be said those two twerps and their sore vaginas when they were here.

 

I will agree that I found the two of them "disappointing"

 

But I "literally have no tolerance" for the opinion that absolves the guys who picked the players, put them in positions of responsibility and signed them to ridiculous long-term contracts.

 

There's more than enough "blame" to go around in this situation. Crater and Richards certainly deserve their fair portion. But there's certainly a fair portion of the "blame" that lies elsewhere as well.

 

 

when i think back to the finals vs Chicago i can't help but think that if there was a better goaltender between the pipes for the Flyers this would be a completely different discussion. 

Leighton was atrocious in that series, he gave away game 1 for sure and was so shaky i need pepto just reflecting on his play.

So to say the Richards and Carter couldn't get it done here ...man i don't know, they were justthisclose with a terrible terrible goaltender behind them, Niemi was no daisy either but Leighton was hideous.  

the point being the Richards and Carter Flyers were right there to win the cup with a shooter tutor behind them. and they almost did.

that was a nice team, that had the right mix of guys to play in the tournament. 

i wonder had they won what the roster would look like now ?

 

Agreed mojo. It's like the Flyers with Richards as captain and Crater as top goal scorer didn't get to Game 6 of the Cup Final (with the essential help of Pronger) playing in front of a Leighton/Boucher tandem.

[brelic]

I think you mean Pronger. Prior to him, we saw what Richards and Carter were on their own. That's not to say they were bad, they had some good runs ,but Pronger put that core over the hump to the next level.

 

Absolutely. Pronger brought in a 30-minute per night all-star Cup winner future HOFer pedigree with him. What Richards and Carter lacked at 25 years old, Pronger had at 35.

 

Just like Giroux and co will not succeed without something similar (by that I mean bona fide #1 d-man) on the blueline and something similar in goal. 

 

With Richards/Carter/Pronger, they had it almost right. 

[PhilsFanDrew]

IMO if you undo the trades and Richards and Carter are back I don't see this team being much better than what they are.   The major blows have been losing Pronger to injury, Carle in free agency, and Timonen declining due to age.    That is a #1, #2, and a strong puck moving defensemen that have not been replaced.    

[JackStraw]

On a value for value basis (which is generally what matters when assessing trades), these were two of the best trades Homer has made, probably two of the best trades in the Flyers history. Although management would never allow itself to be caught uttering the phrase "rebuild", that's what these trades were. You don't trade away arguably your two best players for picks, prospects, and players just starting their NHL careers unless you want to "rebuild" your team. So looking at these trades in any other light makes no sense.

 

Of course the Kings benefitted sooner, they didn't make the trades to rebuild they made the trades to add missing pieces to a Cup contender. And it worked for them. Whether or not the rebuild works for the Flyers remains to be seen, but that now depends on what happens going forward, not whether or not the Kings won a Cup.

 

I'll take Couturier over Richards any day. I'll take Voracek over Carter any day. Throw in Simmonds, Schenn, and Grossman (obtained by trading the pick from the Richards trade) and the Flyers got tremendous value for those two players. That makes them excellent trades. The Flyers got pieces, very good pieces to build around.  Now they just have to continue to build.

 

And last but far from least, trading Richards and Carter opened the door to hand the team over to Giroux, who is a much better player than either Carter or Richards, and at least in my opinion, is a better captain than Richards.

[King Knut]

Correction: Richards and Carter were never on their own. They had great players on the flyers with them. More experienced players. So what you really mean Is that Pronger, Timmo, Briere, Giroux, Hartnell, Gagne, Carle, Coburn, etc weren't good enough to win with Richards and Carter but that Kopitar, Doughty, Brown, Mitchell, Scuderi and Williams and Gagne were?

Because that seems to be the essence if your argyment seems to be that Briere and Pronger and Timmonen just are terrible leaders too.

The fact that Richards and Carter get along and fit in out there just blows the "bad apple" theory out of the water.

Maybe the fact that Richards isn't a captain there and just an A makes some difference in your heads, but I still think as I did then, if a "C" being on another guy's shirt keeps Pronger, Briere and Timmo from speaking up, then that alone makes them crappy leaders. In fact it makes them petulant bitches whichisnwhat everyone said about Pronger before he came to town anyway.

The running theory is that Richie and carts had to go because they had bad attitudes. That has not played out in LA. They have become focal points of a very good team.

They are leaders there. There is another captain there, but Richards and Carter have become extremely important to that team. They're not role players. They're not chipping in for depth. They are team leaders.

They're good players that we traded for some potential and a crazy ass Russian goalie. The first year, I'll concede. But the second year they missed the playoffs again and in the thes year since we're in a season long dogfight for the 8th spot. Which for young guys might feel like the new normal but for those of us over 35 is just a horror show.

It just didn't work. Now at least the potential is still growing and the goalie is gone so we can pick up the pieces and try to move on. But let's not fool ourselves. We are picking up the pieces and movin on.

This is a good thing. It's called depth. They turned two young players into four (all of which are legit NHLers).

Richards (and Carter) were here six years and we didn't. They're cup winners because of the team they are on. They weren't cup winners here and wouldn't have been. They simply weren't good enough to do it on their own. Between that and the whole piss poor locker room attitude, it's a good thing they are one. "They" didn't get anyone a cup.

[JackStraw]

I still can't see a way that the Flyers "won" that trade on the merits - despite getting some very valuable assets in return - and I reiterate that they won't have "won" the trade if they don't win a Cup before Richards' ridiculous contract is over.

 

If I could have one wish, it would be that people stop debating which team "won" a trade. I need someone to show me where they keep the stats for "trades won" and "trades lost".

 

Ok, if I could have one wish it probably wouldn't be that really. But it would be on my list.

[brelic]

I need someone to show me where they keep the stats for "trades won" and "trades lost".

 

It's engraved on the Stanley Cup.

 

And yes, I'm being facetious.

[fanaticV3.0]

I'm not absolving anyone of responsibility. In my very next post to you, I said that Richards and Carter failed to win a Cup in Philly. They had the team on their shoulders and - at 26 years old - the organization decided that they had failed and it was lights out on their little party.

 

Sorry. The one time I don't use my crystal ball...

 

It still sounds like you are excusing them to be completely honest. Yeah, they did have the team on their shoulders, so what? That's what happens in the big leagues. You might not mean it this way, and if you don't I apologize, but it sounds like you're just blaming the team for putting too much pressure on them. Like I said, if you don't mean it that way, don't take it personal. I'm just too cynical to see it otherwise.

Edited January 16, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[JackStraw]

IMO if you undo the trades and Richards and Carter are back I don't see this team being much better than what they are.   The major blows have been losing Pronger to injury, Carle in free agency, and Timonen declining due to age.    That is a #1, #2, and a strong puck moving defensemen that have not been replaced.    

 

And there you have it. +1.

[murraycraven]

IMO if you undo the trades and Richards and Carter are back I don't see this team being much better than what they are. The major blows have been losing Pronger to injury, Carle in free agency, and Timonen declining due to age. That is a #1, #2, and a strong puck moving defensemen that have not been replaced.

 

Great post Drew... 

 

Whiler reading through this post in its entrirety this is exactly what I was thinking.  I loved Richards here and still love him in LA.   I could not stand Carter honestly and his frosted tips and quirky grin really chaffed my arse!  LOL!...   In hindsight I would do this trade again and again.   We got out of two very long contract terms, became younger and much cheaper.  Time will tell if these trades will bring us the ultimate goal.  

 

Losing Pronger and Carle really hurt this defense.   You cant replace a Pronger and Carle, for all of his gaffes, was and is a very good defenseman who deserved more credit than the fans gave.  If we did not lose those two Players the pylon known as Luke Schenn would not be wearing O&B and JvR might still be playing wing in Philly.

[radoran]

If I could have one wish, it would be that people stop debating which team "won" a trade. I need someone to show me where they keep the stats for "trades won" and "trades lost".

 

Ok, if I could have one wish it probably wouldn't be that really. But it would be on my list.

 

Then you might talk to the person who started this thread

 

I said from the jump that these were good trades for the Flyers. Still believe it today.

 

But when we "revisit" a trade and compare two players acquired (neither of which, BTW, were Couturier or Voracek for Richards) to what was traded away, I'm not sure what other takeaway than "who won" a trade one can have from this thread. Could the Flyers have just traded Crater and gotten Voracek/Couturier back for him? It's like the number of licks to the center of a tootsie pop - he world will never know.

 

Taking the big steps back were clearly a "rebuild" effort and we need to see how that "rebuild" goes in evaluating how effective the move was.

 

But I've seen the Flyers - over a few seasons - turn Vaclav Prospal and (the pick that became) Danny Briere into Adam Burt through wily trade machinations. Should we never evaluate how trades impacted the team? I don't for a second you believe that. Putting it strictly into "won/loss" terms isn't the most effective way to do it - as there are trades made that clearly benefit both teams - but it is the accepted shorthand for the evaluation.

[JackStraw]

Losing Pronger and Carle really hurt this defense.   You cant replace a Pronger and Carle, for all of his gaffes, was and is a very good defenseman who deserved more credit than the fans gave.  If we did not lose those two Players the pylon known as Luke Schenn would not be wearing O&B and JvR might still be playing wing in Philly.

 

I would undo the JVR trade WAY before I would undo either the Carter or Richards trades. And I don't really have a problem with Schenn. But value for value that was not a very good trade for the Flyers. But like you say, they desperately needed help on the blue line.

[murraycraven]

I would undo the JVR trade WAY before I would undo either the Carter or Richards trades. And I don't really have a problem with Schenn. But value for value that was not a very good trade for the Flyers. But like you say, they desperately needed help on the blue line.

 

 

I would too Jack...  It would be nice to have JvR back and I have no issues w/ the Carter/Richards trades.   I am not a big Luke Schenn fan but think if he has the right d around him he can be decent.  This defense is just not very good.

[fanaticV3.0]

Absolutely. Pronger brought in a 30-minute per night all-star Cup winner future HOFer pedigree with him. What Richards and Carter lacked at 25 years old, Pronger had at 35.

 

Just like Giroux and co will not succeed without something similar (by that I mean bona fide #1 d-man) on the blueline and something similar in goal. 

 

With Richards/Carter/Pronger, they had it almost right. 

 

What I find most frustrating about Richards and Carter is that - at least while here - they were an example of someone who can get by on pure talent if/when they apply themselves, but when they didn't they had some very bad habits and were downright toxic at times. That cup run was both fun and completely frustrating. It was an odd mixture of raw talent and pure fluke. It shouldn't have happened for so many reasons, but was also an example of the nearly impossible happening when it has no right to.

 

Leighton was not good enough and that issue is not to be dismissed, but weaknesses can be overcome. Ideally you have what you need in all areas of the game to win, but we don't live in an ideal world. There are teams who win that have noticeable weaknesses. It happens in the Super Bowl a lot. I do think that if there wasn't locker room problems, and with someone better than Leighton, but maybe not a stud, the three of them (Richards, Carter, and Pronger) could have been good enough to win one.

[JackStraw]

But when we "revisit" a trade and compare two players acquired (neither of which, BTW, were Couturier or Voracek for Richards) to what was traded away, I'm not sure what other takeaway than "who won" a trade one can have from this thread.

 

How about do the players that were acquired give a better team a chance to win going forward? How do you determine who "won" a trade when one of the players is a veteran in his prime and he is traded for two players who have had little more than a cup of coffee in the league, and a draft pick? Didn't you yourself say that was silly in an earlier post in this thread?

 

 

 

Could the Flyers have just traded Crater and gotten Voracek/Couturier back for him?

 

Not only could they have, they did. They traded Carter first. Homer didn't have to trade Richards later in the same day but he got an offer he couldn't refuse.

 

 

 

Should we never evaluate how trades impacted the team? I don't for a second you believe that. Putting it strictly into "won/loss" terms isn't the most effective way to do it - as there are trades made that clearly benefit both teams - but it is the accepted shorthand for the evaluation.

 

It's not accepted by me. The trades helped both the Flyers and the Kings given the direction each team wanted to go. In the Flyers case that was to rebuild around a new core. In the Kings case it was win a Cup. And I guess it even sort of worked out for Columbus since J Johnson seems to be working out better than Carter did there.

Edited January 16, 2014 by JackStraw

[radoran]

I would undo the JVR trade WAY before I would undo either the Carter or Richards trades. And I don't really have a problem with Schenn. But value for value that was not a very good trade for the Flyers. But like you say, they desperately needed help on the blue line.

 

As an aside here, going with the "Flyers needed defensive help" argument (which I can concur with) this really does point out how the Flyers use long term assets to plug short term problems.

 

Suppose, for example, that they didn't trade JVR for "help on the blueline" Luke Schenn. How would things be different? I think they still don't make the playoffs last year. They had a second-year 20-goal scorer who was their second pick in the draft signed for a very friendly $4.25M through 2018. They traded him for a "disappointing" top ten pick from Toronto who is signed through 2016 at just $625K less than what they had JVR for.

 

Like you said, you would undo this trade LONG before the Crater/Richards change in direction. I would, too.

 

The Flyers right now are one of the top spending teams on defense in the league - almost $29M of their cap is in defenseman (and that's not counting Pronger). The Pens - including LTIR Martin - are spending nine million less than that (number increases with Letang's new contract).

 

So, now, two seasons into "needing" to trade a long term, valuable asset "for defensive help" the Flyers find themselves still "desperately needing defensive help."

 

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

 

If I'm Jake Voracek (signed for two more seasons at $4.25M without a NMC/NTC and earning a "disappointing" reputation among some) I just might be worried.

 

But, hey, Homer'll get it right this time. And if he doesn't? Well, Wayne Simmonds is signed through 2019 at a favorable cap hit with a "limited" NTC and just might be able to be dealt "for defensive help"...

[JackStraw]

Suppose, for example, that they didn't trade JVR for "help on the blueline" Luke Schenn. How would things be different? I think they still don't make the playoffs last year.

 

Welp... they could have drafted Ollie Maata  

[JackStraw]

As an aside here, going with the "Flyers needed defensive help" argument (which I can concur with) this really does point out how the Flyers use long term assets to plug short term problems

 

Call me a crazy optimist. Call me delusional. I'm going to take the fact that Homer could have traded Couturier several times over by now as a sign of a New Day (if not a "fresh perspective") in Flyerland.

[radoran]

It's not accepted by me. The trades helped both the Flyers and the Kings given the direction each team wanted to go. In the Flyers case that was to rebuild around a new core. In the Kings case it was win a Cup. And I guess it even sort of worked out for Columbus since J Johnson seems to be working out better than Carter did there.

 

Again, I didn't start the "let's revisit the Richards trade" thread. And I completely agree with your evaluation of the impact on both teams.

 

But I do think you'll be in the stark minority if you don't think "who won" the trade is going to be an ongoing evaluation.

 

Again, I think the Crater/Richards trades benefitted both teams. But, again, you aren't going to see any Kings fans asking whether or not it was a "good idea" or "revisiting" the trade in 2014. Or, likely, for the next 10 years, for that matter...