radoran Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Supposing (and I admit this is a pretty stupid argument) that on the day the Flyers traded CarterandRichards the Hawks had traded Toews and Kane and gotten the same return the Flyers got. Does anyone actually think that the Hawks would have done that to improve their chances of winning another Cup the following year? Would anyone argue that was not at least a partial rebuilding? Just for the record, I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of what happened. I'm saying The Flyers didn't look at it that way. And still don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Just for the record, I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of what happened. I'm saying The Flyers didn't look at it that way. And still don't. Ok. I jguess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or, we could break out the Schlägers and leather masks and give each other cool facial scars. Edited January 16, 2014 by JackStraw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Totally agreed... A full rebuild commitment and who knows what's going on with them now.As it was, it was just a series of moves in opposite directions working against themselves. See my post to rad that follows yours. Trading away your two best players (ok, two best forwards at least) for prospects and picks is rebuilding any way you look at it. Doesn't mean other stupid things can't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Ok. I just we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or, we could break out the Schlägers and leather masks and give each other cool facial scars. OK, agreed to differ. However, the owner of the team did say and it was earlier this season that there is nothing wrong with the culture or philosophy of the franchise. And that philosophy - again, expressed by management to STHs (and the public) earlier this season - is "make the playoffs and anything can happen." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 People would think the Hawks were insane.But then again, even I'm willing to admit that Kane and Toews are better than Carter and Richards Supposing (and I admit this is a pretty stupid argument) that on the day the Flyers traded CarterandRichards the Hawks had traded Toews and Kane and gotten the same return the Flyers got. Does anyone actually think that the Hawks would have done that to improve their chances of winning another Cup the following year? Would anyone argue that was not at least a partial rebuilding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Pronger. He made a pretty big difference. Just saying. Sure. The same Chris Pronger who was traded from the team that drafted him because he was immature and not living up to expectations. Leighton was the one who made the biggest difference. If the Flyers had a good goalie, they very well could have won.....even with Carter and Richards, just like LA proved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 It's hard to fathom that they could be so foolish as to not understand that... but the signing of Bryzgalov really suggests it was all part of some misguided and disturbingly confused "plan." Just for the record, I'm not disagreeing with your interpretation of what happened. I'm saying The Flyers didn't look at it that way. And still don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Supposing (and I admit this is a pretty stupid argument) that on the day the Flyers traded CarterandRichards the Hawks had traded Toews and Kane and gotten the same return the Flyers got. Does anyone actually think that the Hawks would have done that to improve their chances of winning another Cup the following year? Would anyone argue that was not at least a partial rebuilding? And for all the "party boy" stories Carter and Richards provided, Kane beat them at that game easily. Chicago stuck with him though, and he looks like he's grown up, which is what men do. Just like Richards and Carter and Pronger for that matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 And for all the "party boy" stories Carter and Richards provided, Kane beat them at that game easily. Chicago stuck with him though, and he looks like he's grown up, which is what men do. Just like Richards and Carter and Pronger for that matter. Kane's mom moved to Chicago and was living with Kane when he was first drafted. That said, you can take the boy out of South Buffalo, but you can't take all of South Buffalo out of the boy. I take all the "off ice" nonsense with a tub full of salt. For example, I don't believe for a second that Richards and Crater slept with Brind'amour's wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyS Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Sure. The same Chris Pronger who was traded from the team that drafted him because he was immature and not living up to expectations. Leighton was the one who made the biggest difference. If the Flyers had a good goalie, they very well could have won.....even with Carter and Richards, just like LA proved. I'll go a step further than that - if we had even an average NHL goalie in that series, the Flyers win the Cup that year and Richards & Carter are still playing for the Flyers and never pick up another tab in Philly the rest of their lives. And Briere wins the Conn Smythe and goes down as a Philly sports icon. But the same Leighton who did so much to help get us to the Finals (and we don't make it without him!) basically froze like a deer in the headlights. No excuse for that series, especially losing game #1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 @radoran What about Tyler Seguin. He's looked like he's turned it around. Sometimes kids just need a kick in the arse. I can't imagine what I'd have been like as a millionaire in my early twenties. It was dangerous enough on my paltry wages. And no, I didn't do Mrs. Brindy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 OK, agreed to differ. However, the owner of the team did say and it was earlier this season that there is nothing wrong with the culture or philosophy of the franchise. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 @JackStraw Do you deliver? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 @JackStraw Do you deliver? Absolutely. Just a small deposit is all that I need. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I sent you a money order from my account at the Bank of Nigeria. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Azis, part of my rhetorical. point. with this was to conspicuously do what you always do which is to make broad crass generalizations that support your POV but ignore the details other people have suggested which may have contradicted it. But to give your point it's due discussion, what you're essentially suggesting is that Pronger got hurt and that changes everything. Are you suggesting that a healthy Pronger cancels out the "rebuild?" Or are you suggesting that Signing Bryzgalov is the thing that helped make the team worse after they left (because as I've stated, my feeling is that they were dumped specifically in order to make cap room for Bryzgalov and also because Homer and Snider just didn't like them). Maybe it was trading Bobrovsky which they had to do because Homer let Lavvy play him against the Sabres and didn't clear enough cap space and roster slots to keep both Bob and Leighton on the books? Because if I have a point it's these two things: The team is worse and it is worse the past three seasons than it was the preceding four because of poor roster decisions and poor personnel strategy by management. It doesn't sound as though you disagree with that. Clearly Richards and Carter are two components. In my opinion they're the dominoes that most dramatically set things in motion. Then of course there's Pronger who was already in motion before they were traded because he was 36 years old and playing a hard man's game on borrowed time. Once again I didn't. bring. this. up. and if you can't handle you're own medicine, stop. dishing. it. And I'm genuinely (not rhetorically) asking you to explain your math because by my research and calculations between October 2005 when they were rookies and 2011 when they were traded, the Flyers were 241 and 188 which is a winning percentage of .562. What am I missing? I'm not being snooty... I'm asking where the error in my math is. stop. this. you again go to that well implying that the primary difference between the team now and when those two were members is that those two were members. way way too much has happened to the roster between then and now to keep pretending like that is the only important change, that the "now" is a direct result of not having those two around anymore. it isn't. frankly, they've been replaced. the issues with the team now are in entirely different positions. also, by my math, the flyers had a .490 winning percentage during richards and carter's tenure. they've had a .531 since they left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I don't believe for a second that Richards and Crater slept with Brind'amour's wife. Wait a minute... I thought Carter was banging Hartnell's wife!?! Wasn't it Lindros that was wanging Brindy's wife? Or, was Carter and Richards snorting coke off of Hartnells wife's back while Lindros was banging her? Is there another franchise that has as many rumors as the Flyers? Rumors are rumors and nothing more. Give a few kids a couple of million a year to play hockey and what do you expect? Thank God I did not have that money when I was 18-23 years old b/c I would have been dead. Some players take longer to mature... With that being said I still find it incredibly odd that the franchise decided to dump their biggest players in Carter and Richards. After being told by Homer they were not being traded... I think there may be some truth to what is rumor but noone knows what went on in that room. Frankly, who cares? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 @King Knut yes, i believe pronger was the biggest catalyst for the flyers' problems over the last few seasons. sure, he was playing on borrowed time, but the fact is that he was playing up to the point that he wasn't. the change in winning percentage coincides with that moment. during the years richards and carter were with the team, they went 241-189-63. 241 wins out of 492 games total, winning% of .490. some win% systems drop ties from the calculation, but those aren't ties on the end, they're OTLs. rad is right, that one 06-07 season (22-48-12) heavily bends the percentage to the point of the whole thing not being worth mentioning. but sometimes i'm like that. then again, if we're gonna look critically at how the team plays with guys like couturier and schenn in their second years, may as well include how the team played with carter and richards in their second. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I sent you a money order from my account at the Bank of Nigeria. Okee dokee. Your brand new really old bridge is on its way. Please make sure your driveway is clear when the truck arrives. Your neighbor's drive way too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 rad is right, that one 06-07 season (22-48-12) heavily bends the percentage to the point of the whole thing not being worth mentioning. but sometimes i'm like that. +!!!1!1!1 then again, if we're gonna look critically at how the team plays with guys like couturier and schenn in their second years, may as well include how the team played with carter and richards in their second. Well, if you want to look at the "Richards years" you kinda haveta include the 05-06 season where they were 2nd in the division with 101 points. From where I sit, that gives them 545 points in 6 seasons which I have as a .553 winning % Even including 06-07. Of course, I'm looking at "points" and not "wins"... Pointing percentage??? One might also take into account that Pronger played just 50 games of the 10-11 season, when the Flyers were first in the division with 106 points. I do believe Pronger was essential to the run the Cup, but the team didn't exactly fall apart the next season when he missed 32 games. Nor, really, the season after that when he went down with his career-ending injury and the team still had 103 points and lost to the eventual Cup champion Broons. I guess that's my main beef with the whole "revisiting the trade" thing. Too many times people start with "Richards had to be traded" (even though he wasn't traded first) and backfill from there. The Flyers, one season removed from a Finals appearance, were first in the division and lost a second round series to a team that the year before they had embarrassed more than any other team ever has been in the history of the league - using a goalie carousel at that. That's when they blew it all up. Clearly this was more than a "hockey move" when they made it. I'll take two. Go Flyers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 'll take two. Good thinking! You can make one one way one way and the other one way the other way. Thus dramatically reducing traffic jams! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Good thinking! You can make one one way one way and the other one way the other way. Thus dramatically reducing traffic jams! I was gonna put one on top of the other, but then realized that a governor might shut down access to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 I was gonna put one on top of the other, but then realized that a governor might shut down access to it. That would be an awfully sleazy thing to do. I could see it happening in Jersey maybe. But not in any actual civilized place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 (edited) Edited January 16, 2014 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.