Trade deadline talk

[nossagog]

Meh.  I like Megna. I don't think he hurts you but on the top line?  I'd rather see Bennett there when he's healthy.  Or Jagr. :-)

Absolutely, I would love Benet there.  But why would coach Dan put TANNER FRIGGIN GLASS on Sid's line in the Pheonix game.  I can't come with one thing that Glass would do to help that line. Right now, give Megna a chance.

[B21]

Absolutely, I would love Benet there.  But why would coach Dan put TANNER FRIGGIN GLASS on Sid's line in the Pheonix game.  I can't come with one thing that Glass would do to help that line. Right now, give Megna a chance.

 

Yeah - can't answer that one.  I had the game on but wasn't able to give it my undivided attention.

[B21]

@B21

As for Jagr... That's a tough one. He's scoring we'll for Jersey, but I don't know that they're the speed game Crosby is. May prove an interesting experiment though if the price is right.

 

See - I think he's just what Crosby needs.  A finisher.  Not that Kunitz can't but he's more of a clean-up-Sid's-garbage-near-the-net finisher.  Jagr brings more of a pure scoring threat.  He's a +20 on an average Devils team, too.

 

My only worry is Jagr wearing down in the post-season again.

[Polaris922]

@B21

I wonder what baggage comes with that too. There've been some games between him and Penguins management in the past, so would that cause wrinkles?

[nossagog]

Well I think we can all forget any Letang talks with whatever is going on with him at the moment.   I wonder if it migranes again.

[B21]

@B21

I wonder what baggage comes with that too. There've been some games between him and Penguins management in the past, so would that cause wrinkles?

 

The Pens would have to put that behind them which I think they are capable of.  It is a business after all.  I think the fans would love it if he came back, too.  Pittsburghers are very sentimental.

[brelic]

I think your best choice is Jagr. He would open up a lot of space for Crosby, who is the ultimate focus of each opponent. I don't think this version of Jagr is a goal scorer.. he creates space and makes great plays that lead to goals. Plus he would be cheap compared to some other (younger) options. 

 

Just from an observer's point of view, he would seem to fit in much nicer than, say, Iginla, who is a hard nosed and hard working player, but he doesn't come close to Jagr's puck possession skills. 

 

As for Letang, what would it cost for the Flyers to get him (other than Fred Shero's first born son, which you already have ? I know it would never happen (though the two teams have a trading history), but I would love to have him on the Flyers. Seems to me he's exactly what we'd need to replace Timonen.

[B21]

I think your best choice is Jagr. He would open up a lot of space for Crosby, who is the ultimate focus of each opponent. I don't think this version of Jagr is a goal scorer.. he creates space and makes great plays that lead to goals. Plus he would be cheap compared to some other (younger) options. 

 

Just from an observer's point of view, he would seem to fit in much nicer than, say, Iginla, who is a hard nosed and hard working player, but he doesn't come close to Jagr's puck possession skills. 

 

As for Letang, what would it cost for the Flyers to get him (other than Fred Shero's first born son, which you already have ? I know it would never happen (though the two teams have a trading history), but I would love to have him on the Flyers. Seems to me he's exactly what we'd need to replace Timonen.

 

I am going to use the Pronger trade as a barometer.

 

Flyers got Pronger and Ryan Dingle (who never played a game for the Flyers)...so let's just say Pronger.

 

Ducks got two 1st rounds picks, Sbisa (who was a recent 1st round pick) and Lupul who was coming off a 25G/25A campaign. (And a condition 3rd round pick.)

 

Pronger was 35 old. 9 years removed from his Hart/Norris season but still had numbers close to his career average the season before.

 

Letang is 26. Coming off a PPG season in which he was nominated for the Norris.  He's having an off year this year due to being in and out of the line-up with injuries but has still managed 10 G in 38 GP.  -6 though.

 

The contract situation is about equal.  Pronger wasn't under contract when you traded for him but I am sure that was understood to happen. Letang is signed long-term; a bit over market value but not much.  That said, I think Pronger makes around $7M per if that same trade is taking place now.

 

So Letang is yours for.....

 

Simmonds

Read

2014 1st Round Pick

2015 2nd Round Pick

 

I can already hear the screaming about Simmonds but his last 3 seasons (including 13-14) compare favorably with Lupul's 4 seasons before he was dealt. 

 

Projecting G/A/P out over a full season (most recent 1st):

 

Simmonds: 26/31/57, 29/32/61 and 28/21/49...

Lupul: 25/25/50 and 28/37/65.  Off year in 06-07 but 28/25/53 in 05-06.  Not as good as Simmonds but not that far off either.

 

So for one less 1st round pick (I'll take a 2nd) you get a player with a similar cap hit (relatively speaking) who is just hitting his prime and will actually play out his entire contract barring injury. Pronger's defensive superiority if offset by Letang's offensive capabilities.

 

So...fair?

[flyercanuck]

I am going to use the Pronger trade as a barometer.

 

Flyers got Pronger and Ryan Dingle (who never played a game for the Flyers)...so let's just say Pronger.

 

Ducks got two 1st rounds picks, Sbisa (who was a recent 1st round pick) and Lupul who was coming off a 25G/25A campaign. (And a condition 3rd round pick.)

 

Pronger was 35 old. 9 years removed from his Hart/Norris season but still had numbers close to his career average the season before.

 

Letang is 26. Coming off a PPG season in which he was nominated for the Norris.  He's having an off year this year due to being in and out of the line-up with injuries but has still managed 10 G in 38 GP.  -6 though.

 

The contract situation is about equal.  Pronger wasn't under contract when you traded for him but I am sure that was understood to happen. Letang is signed long-term; a bit over market value but not much.  That said, I think Pronger makes around $7M per if that same trade is taking place now.

 

So Letang is yours for.....

 

Simmonds

Read

2014 1st Round Pick

2015 2nd Round Pick

 

I can already hear the screaming about Simmonds but his last 3 seasons (including 13-14) compare favorably with Lupul's 4 seasons before he was dealt. 

 

Projecting G/A/P out over a full season (most recent 1st):

 

Simmonds: 26/31/57, 29/32/61 and 28/21/49...

Lupul: 25/25/50 and 28/37/65.  Off year in 06-07 but 28/25/53 in 05-06.  Not as good as Simmonds but not that far off either.

 

So for one less 1st round pick (I'll take a 2nd) you get a player with a similar cap hit (relatively speaking) who is just hitting his prime and will actually play out his entire contract barring injury. Pronger's defensive superiority if offset by Letang's offensive capabilities.

 

So...fair?

 

 

 I know you're kidding...Pronger was excellent at defence and put the fear of God in players. Letang doesn't scare anyone in his own end (other than Pens fans), and won't put up the same point totals in Philly as we don't have 2+ Claude Girouxs on the team, and we'd also be losing the players you mentioned. I personally wouldn't trade Simmonds even for him. He's one of my favorite players, and has a cap friendly contract (as does Read) Letang? Well his is a reason you want to trade him I'd imagine.

 

 I'd take Letang for the right price, but that isn't it. That's a package for an all around Dman, IMO. Just because Holmgren paid it for a 35 year old Pronger, doesn't mean it's the going rate. ..it just shows Holmgrens stupidity sometimes...JVR for Luke Schenn even up ring a bell?

[brelic]

So Letang is yours for.....

 

Simmonds

Read

2014 1st Round Pick

2015 2nd Round Pick

 

I can already hear the screaming about Simmonds but his last 3 seasons (including 13-14) compare favorably with Lupul's 4 seasons before he was dealt. 

 

Projecting G/A/P out over a full season (most recent 1st):

 

Simmonds: 26/31/57, 29/32/61 and 28/21/49...

Lupul: 25/25/50 and 28/37/65.  Off year in 06-07 but 28/25/53 in 05-06.  Not as good as Simmonds but not that far off either.

 

So for one less 1st round pick (I'll take a 2nd) you get a player with a similar cap hit (relatively speaking) who is just hitting his prime and will actually play out his entire contract barring injury. Pronger's defensive superiority if offset by Letang's offensive capabilities.

 

So...fair?

Haha, your logic seems solid, but I wouldn't want the Flyers to pay that price.

But, substitute Streit for Simmonds, and it's a little more palatable And I don't think there's any chance the Flyers would give up this year's 1st since the draft is in Philly.

Streit

Read

2015 1st

Just hit 'X' and click on 'Accept Trade', and we're good to go!

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

 

 There is NO freakin way I'm trading the Pens our 2015 1st round pick. I can just see it now, "And  the winner of the 2015 draft lottery is...The Philadelphia Flyers...who traded the pick to Pittsburgh. And the Pens proudly select Connor McDavid.".

 

 And the lineup to the Ben Franklin Bridge starts here ---------------------------------------------------------------------->

[B21]

@flyercanuck

 

I know you're kidding...

 

Nope.

 

Pronger was excellent at defence and put the fear of God in players. Letang doesn't scare anyone in his own end (other than Pens fans), and won't put up the same point totals in Philly as we don't have 2+ Claude Girouxs on the team, and we'd also be losing the players you mentioned. I personally wouldn't trade Simmonds even for him. He's one of my favorite players, and has a cap friendly contract (as does Read) Letang? Well his is a reason you want to trade him I'd imagine.

 

You gave up what amounts to 3 1st round picks plus a forward regularly putting up (or projecting to) 50-60 points seasons.  That was for a 35 year old Pronger. I'm not comparing Pronger in his prime to Letang.  No comparison.  I am comparing a Pronger who was 1-2 years away from the beginning of the end of his career to a Letang who is just now reaching his prime...and I am still asking for less. 

 

As for the defensive capabilities...well duh.  If you want that, you are not trading for a Letang.  But if you do want an offsensively gifted winger d-man, then you pay the going rate.  While they (Pronger and Letang) play the same position they are two completely different players but that doesn't mean one is significantly more valuable than the other especially when one was 35 at the time of his trade and the other would be 26.

 

Again...2 years of old Pronger versus 7+ years of prime Letang...and I am still asking for less.

 

I'd take Letang for the right price, but that isn't it. That's a package for an all around Dman, IMO. Just because Holmgren paid it for a 35 year old Pronger, doesn't mean it's the going rate. ..it just shows Holmgrens stupidity sometimes...JVR for Luke Schenn even up ring a bell?

Sure it is.  Hence the term market value.  As for JVR/Schenn, at the time it made sense because neither was living up to expectations.  Hindsight is 20/20 on that one. 

 

If you were GM then no - I would not expect you to pay that for Letang.  Your "displeasure" wtih defencemen who don't play defence is well known which is an opinion I respect.    But...I think it's a safe bet that there are enough people making decisions at the highest levels of management for at least a few NHL teams who do value a player like Letang and would pay that for him.  And you said yourself...Simmonds is one of your favorite players.  :wub:  

[B21]

Haha, your logic seems solid, but I wouldn't want the Flyers to pay that price.

But, substitute Streit for Simmonds, and it's a little more palatable And I don't think there's any chance the Flyers would give up this year's 1st since the draft is in Philly.

Streit

Read

2015 1st

Just hit 'X' and click on 'Accept Trade', and we're good to go!

 

Streit can hit the street.

 

If there were serious discussions, I'd walk if Simmonds wasn't part of the deal though I would be flexible on the pick since the draft is in Philly.  I'd want a 2nd in 2014 if I have to wait for 2015 for the 1st.  It's likely Holgren would have included that anyway.

[B21]

@brelic

 

 There is NO freakin way I'm trading the Pens our 2015 1st round pick. I can just see it now, "And  the winner of the 2015 draft lottery is...The Philadelphia Flyers...who traded the pick to Pittsburgh. And the Pens proudly select Connor McDavid.".

 

 And the lineup to the Ben Franklin Bridge starts here ---------------------------------------------------------------------->

 

But if you had Letang you wouldn't be in the running for a lottery pick.

[brelic]

But if you had Letang you wouldn't be in the running for a lottery pick.

Even without Letang, there's no way we're both that bad AND lucky enough to win the lottery.

And despite Letang's defensive deficiencies, he's still an important part of a well-rounded defense corps. He would make our team defense worse *right now*, but I think we're in for a reworking of the Flyers blueline in the next few seasons.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

I was one of the five or so people who didn't like the Pronger deal from day one. Ditto for the Bryz deal, the Briere deal, the Streit deal and the VLC deal. Not a fan of longterm contracts to over 30 players.

 

 To me Simmonds is the type of player you want to build a champion around, nasty pain in the arse who can score. No offence, but I'll take that over a super talented guy who's going to get self inflicted whiplash one day, if that hasn't already happened.

 

 Philly needs some quality defencemen, there's no arguing that. But if we're selling the farm for one, he damn well had better be able to play defence. Because if he can't, we still have to fill that hole, and just opened two more and gave away a piece to try and fill them. Doesn't make sense IMO.

 

 

 

 

But if you had Letang you wouldn't be in the running for a lottery pick.

 

 

Uh, ya. Replacing Simmonds and Read with Letang puts us closer to it  And you guys closer to the cup  (how come there's no barfing smiley face?)

[mojo1917]

@brelic

 

 There is NO freakin way I'm trading the Pens our 2015 1st round pick. I can just see it now, "And  the winner of the 2015 draft lottery is...The Philadelphia Flyers...who traded the pick to Pittsburgh. And the Pens proudly select Connor McDavid.".

 

 And the lineup to the Ben Franklin Bridge starts here ---------------------------------------------------------------------->

LMAO

[B21]

@B21

 

I was one of the five or so people who didn't like the Pronger deal from day one. Ditto for the Bryz deal, the Briere deal, the Streit deal and the VLC deal. Not a fan of longterm contracts to over 30 players.

 

 To me Simmonds is the type of player you want to build a champion around, nasty pain in the arse who can score. No offence, but I'll take that over a super talented guy who's going to get self inflicted whiplash one day, if that hasn't already happened.

 

 Philly needs some quality defencemen, there's no arguing that. But if we're selling the farm for one, he damn well had better be able to play defence. Because if he can't, we still have to fill that hole, and just opened two more and gave away a piece to try and fill them. Doesn't make sense IMO.

 

 

At least on the Pronger deal you were in the minority. 

 

Simmonds is a good player - why I'd want him.  But the NHL is chalk full of Wayne Simmondses.  There were almost 90 players who projected 60 points (Wayne's ceiling to date in his career) last year.  There was only 1 d-man at a PPG game pace.

 

Like I said - if you want the offense-first d-man you aren't looking at Letang in the first place.  But if you do....

 

Just curious - what would you give for Letang?

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

 After re-reading my post when you quoted it I'd like to change "type of player you build champion around"  to the type of player you could build a champion along with. He's certainly not a centerpiece. 

 

 Sure there are plenty of 60 point players...how many do you hate to play against? Throw Simmonds on Crosbys line and he may well become a 90 point player, who you hate to play against. Put Letang on Phillys D and watch the hate for him multiply....in Philly. Mark Streit is a poor mans version of Kris Letang. I never wanted him in Philly for free. My offer for Letang would only insult you so I won't bother. I prefer the in your face Dman over the Letang/Karlsson/Green types. Just my opinion. 

[B21]

@flyercanuck

 

After re-reading my post when you quoted it I'd like to change "type of player you build champion around"  to the type of player you could build a champion along with. He's certainly not a centerpiece. 

 

 I figured as much. Wasn't about to be picky.

 

 Sure there are plenty of 60 point players...how many do you hate to play against? Throw Simmonds on Crosbys line and he may well become a 90 point player, who you hate to play against. Put Letang on Phillys D and watch the hate for him multiply....in Philly. Mark Streit is a poor mans version of Kris Letang. I never wanted him in Philly for free. My offer for Letang would only insult you so I won't bother. I prefer the in your face Dman over the Letang/Karlsson/Green types. Just my opinion.

 

No problem with your preference or not want to pay what in my opinion is fair value for Letang.  I just think there is a good number of NHL GM's who would.

 

[brelic]

My offer for Letang would only insult you so I won't bother. I prefer the in your face Dman over the Letang/Karlsson/Green types. Just my opinion.

So would I. But which ones are legitimately available?

The ones that are would be prohibitively expensive. It would require some of our core players (Couturier, Schenn, Voracek, etc), prospects (Laughton, Morin, Hagg, Stolarz) and 1st round picks.

In the absence of that, I think that a guy like Letang, who brings a top-level offensive presence and is having a down year filled with injuries, would be cheaper.

But, I digress... I didn't mean to hijack the Pens trade deadline thread. Carry on

[flyercanuck]

@flyercanuck

 

 

 I figured as much. Wasn't about to be picky.

 

 

No problem with your preference or not want to pay what in my opinion is fair value for Letang.  I just think there is a good number of NHL GM's who would.

 

 

 I have absolutely no doubt in that. One of them is likely Holmgren.

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

 

 Great defencemen are rarely available for trade. Letangs name comes up from Pens fans regularly on forums. I don't recall wanting to trade Timonen in his prime. Or Howe.

 

 If noone is available at a reasonable price, why not just try and find your own for a change? It's not like we're Kris Letang away from a cup. So why gut the team to acquire him? Most of our best players are young enough that we can continue the build process without throwing away the future on one guy. Our farm system is currently ranked 30th in a 30 team league. It didn't get that way from holding on to 1st and 2nd round picks and young players.

[Polaris922]

@brelic

Great defencemen are rarely available for trade. Letangs name comes up from Pens fans regularly on forums. I don't recall wanting to trade Timonen in his prime. Or Howe.

If noone is available at a reasonable price, why not just try and find your own for a change? It's not like we're Kris Letang away from a cup. So why gut the team to acquire him? Most of our best players are young enough that we can continue the build process without throwing away the future on one guy. Our farm system is currently ranked 30th in a 30 team league. It didn't get that way from holding on to 1st and 2nd round picks and young players.

I think we only started thinking of trading him away when we became so loaded with prospects at defense last year. The emergence of Maatta definitely compounds the logjam, and the signing of Scuderi. We just have so much there and we've been looking for a goal scoring wing to compliment Crosby and Kunitz for ages. Add Dupuis' injury and Letang's injury...

Edited February 5, 2014 by Polaris922

[flyercanuck]

I think we only started thinking of trading him away when we became so loaded with prospects at defense last year. The emergence of Maatta definitely compounds the logjam, and the signing of Scuderi. We just have so much there and we've been looking for a goal scoring wing to compliment Crosby and Kunitz for ages. Add Dupuis' injury and Letang's injury...

 

 Sure, I agree.

 

 Oh, and Letangs playoff performance.

 

 Letang is a very good offensive defenceman. But he's not a guy I want to gut a team over to be my #1. He's not in my top tier of defence... cause he doesn't play much.