Joe Thornton, all time playmaker?

[yave1964]

  Poster @joethornton mentioned in another thread that Joe Thornton is solidifying his case as one of the greatest playmakers of all time. This has been rustling around in my mind since then, and I decided to take a look for myself and see what I thought.

 

  First, Thornton is one hell of a player. His statistics:

 

Games  Goals Assists  Points +/-

 

1202      342    850        1192    +177

 

He is 34 and still going strong. This season he has quietly put up 74 points in 77 games, still performing at a point a game ratio.

 

  First lets look at the retired players whose similarity scores are considered the best comps to Thornton.

1.Brett Hull

2. Bryan Trottier

3. Steve Yzerman

4. Marcel Dionne

5. Bobby Hull

 

  All hall of famers, all considered to be among the greatest in the game.

 

Thornton at 34 is 25th all time in assists, just four behind Bobby Clarke. He has led the league 3 times in assists, came in 2nd twice and 3rd once, he is second this year.

  Assists per game for his career he is 23rd, playing most of his career in a dead puck era. Active players ahead of him are Sid Crosby, Malkin and Nick Backstrom. Most others ahead of him played in the high scoring 80's.

 

  He is now in the top 50 in all time scoring, his 1192 points rank him 46th. He has played in six all star games, been a second team all star twice and a first team all star once.

  Again, just one hell of a player.

  NOW THE CASE AGAINST

  There are some, many even who consider Thornton a prima Donna after the Bruins dealt him to the Sharks for Marco Strum, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart. After dealing Thornton, the Bruins started a whisper campaign in the East coast media they painted him as a brittle me first player, a modern Lindros if you will. Perception and reality are not the same as he has not missed ten games in his Sharks career, but playing out west this gets missed.

 The Sharks have never won a cup, in spite of enormous talent and some great regular seasons the Thornton/Marleau era has never even gotten them to the finals. Roenick has publicly blasted the Sharks, (especially Marleau) for the lack of intensity. When a team underperforms the stars are the ones who publicly get the blame.

  He is enormous, 6 feet 2 over two hundred pounds and is a pass first shoot as the last option player and has a reputation for playing softer than his size. This is a common complaint of fans and he seems to be called out for it every year. Some validity may actually apply.

  In essense the case against Thornton as a great player is a combination of perception and playing on the West coast where East coast fans do not get to see him every night. As a Wings fan, let me tell you I hate Pavelski the most of any shark but Thornton has thrust a dagger in more than once.

  This is running a bit long, the gist was supposed to be, is Thornton an all time great playmaker? I rank the greatest playmakers of all time:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Crosby

5. Forsberg

6. Dionne

7. Peter Stastny

8. Clarke

9. Sakic

10. Yzerman

11. Coffey

12. Trottier

13. Bossy

14. Perreault

15. Francis

16. Oates

17. Messier

18. H. Sedin

19. Beliveau

20. d. Savard

 

 Also worthy: Malkin, Bourque, Lafluer, Mikita, Jagr and Gilmour.

  Where in this bunch of elite players do you rank Thornton? IMHO the top six are pretty well fixed. Forsberg gets a bad rap because of being brittle but he was an all time great playmaker. Peter Stastny came over late in his career after defecting, he was 24 before his first NHL game and is 33rd all time in assists.

  To me, Thornton at his age ranks ahead of Gil Perreault, a great playmaker and slightly behind Sakic and Yzerman. If he keeps it up for another 3 or 4 years at or close to his current pace he will be top ten.

  You do not have to win a cup to be an all time great, Dionne and Stastny for instance never did but it does get you bonus points. If he wins a cup he automatically bumps up a spot or two in my opinion. The fact that the Sharks have not won a cup does count against him, even more than Dionne who other than a few years played on bad or mediocre teams who were not expected to win anyway. It is why many consider Montana greater than Marino in spite of strong statistical evidence to the contrary.  

  So my opinion not quite top ten but a first ballot HOFer if he retires today. With a few more solid years he could be top five but he is not quite there yet.

Edited April 2, 2014 by yave1964

[J0e Th0rnton]

  Poster @joethornton mentioned in another thread that Joe Thornton is solidifying his case as one of the greatest playmakers of all time. This has been rustling around in my mind since then, and I decided to take a look for myself and see what I thought.

 

  First, Thornton is one hell of a player. His statistics:

 

Games  Goals Assists  Points +/-

 

1202      342    850        1192    +177

 

He is 34 and still going strong. This season he has quietly put up 74 points in 77 games, still performing at a point a game ratio.

 

  First lets look at the retired players whose similarity scores are considered the best comps to Thornton.

1.Brett Hull

2. Bryan Trottier

3. Steve Yzerman

4. Marcel Dionne

5. Bobby Hull

 

  All hall of famers, all considered to be among the greatest in the game.

 

Thornton at 34 is 25th all time in assists, just four behind Bobby Clarke. He has led the league 3 times in assists, came in 2nd twice and 3rd once, he is second this year.

  Assists per game for his career he is 23rd, playing most of his career in a dead puck era. Active players ahead of him are Sid Crosby, Malkin and Nick Backstrom. Most others ahead of him played in the high scoring 80's.

 

  He is now in the top 50 in all time scoring, his 1192 points rank him 46th. He has played in six all star games, been a second team all star twice and a first team all star once.

  Again, just one hell of a player.

  NOW THE CASE AGAINST

  There are some, many even who consider Thornton a prima Donna after the Bruins dealt him to the Sharks for Marco Strum, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart. After dealing Thornton, the Bruins started a whisper campaign in the East coast media they painted him as a brittle me first player, a modern Lindros if you will. Perception and reality are not the same as he has not missed ten games in his Sharks career, but playing out west this gets missed.

 The Sharks have never won a cup, in spite of enormous talent and some great regular seasons the Thornton/Marleau era has never even gotten them to the finals. Roenick has publicly blasted the Sharks, (especially Marleau) for the lack of intensity. When a team underperforms the stars are the ones who publicly get the blame.

  He is enormous, 6 feet 2 over two hundred pounds and is a pass first shoot as the last option player and has a reputation for playing softer than his size. This is a common complaint of fans and he seems to be called out for it every year. Some validity may actually apply.

  In essense the case against Thornton as a great player is a combination of perception and playing on the West coast where East coast fans do not get to see him every night. As a Wings fan, let me tell you I hate Pavelski the most of any shark but Thornton has thrust a dagger in more than once.

  This is running a bit long, the gist was supposed to be, is Thornton an all time great playmaker? I rank the greatest playmakers of all time:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Crosby

5. Forsberg

6. Dionne

7. Peter Stastny

8. Clarke

9. Sakic

10. Yzerman

11. Coffey

12. Trottier

13. Bossy

14. Perreault

15. Francis

16. Oates

17. Messier

18. H. Sedin

19. Beliveau

20. d. Savard

 

 Also worthy: Malkin, Bourque, Lafluer, Mikita, Jagr and Gilmour.

  Where in this bunch of elite players do you rank Thornton? IMHO the top six are pretty well fixed. Forsberg gets a bad rap because of being brittle but he was an all time great playmaker. Peter Stastny came over late in his career after defecting, he was 24 before his first NHL game and is 33rd all time in assists.

  To me, Thornton at his age ranks ahead of Gil Perreault, a great playmaker and slightly behind Sakic and Yzerman. If he keeps it up for another 3 or 4 years at or close to his current pace he will be top ten.

  You do not have to win a cup to be an all time great, Dionne and Stastny for instance never did but it does get you bonus points. If he wins a cup he automatically bumps up a spot or two in my opinion. The fact that the Sharks have not won a cup does count against him, even more than Dionne who other than a few years played on bad or mediocre teams who were not expected to win anyway. It is why many consider Montana greater than Marino in spite of strong statistical evidence to the contrary.  

  So my opinion not quite top ten but a first ballot HOFer if he retires today. With a few more solid years he could be top five but he is not quite there yet.

I'll comment more when I get off work, but I find a bit of flaw with your list. Most of those players are definitely better than joe overall, but as a playmaker? How is Oates so low? In pure passing and playmaking, he blows sakic and yzerman out of the water.

[Podein25]

Joe is an incredible passer I must say. One of the best ever for sure. Very soft hands indeed.

 

As a pure passer and a center, I have to respect it and praise it. I hope he wins a Cup one of these days. His lack of playoff success dogs him, you can see it in his face at times.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Nice thread. Joe has so many different types of deadly passes. His saucer pass is one of the best ever. He throws in some of those shot/pass hybrid's that are like rockets but always right on the blade. His backhand pass is also elite.

 

  Ha, it's funny.....when I first read his assist total, I thought to myself, damn...he *has* to be close to Clarke!  I think most people view Clarke as an all time elite playmaker, and Joe is about to obliterate Bobby's totals. At 34 he seems to have only lost a half a step or so....he's coping with father time quite well.

 

  Like pods said, a lifetime of inevitably losing in the playoffs is wearing on guy. He's such an ultra competitive guy, this post season losing must be just killing him. The good news is, the Sharks window to winning will remain open for quite some time, Nemi should be in his prime for a while still, Marleau, Pavalski....and now the young star Hertel is added to the mix. They have a nice core.

 

 Just curious as to why Bossy was on this list, I always viewed him as a trigger man, not a playmaker. A few guys who did not make the list, but where terrific playmakers...Jean Reattle and Rick Middleton, not real superstars.....but just a notch below. If you talked to an older Leaf fan, they would tell you that Dave Keon deserves mention....and I would have a tendency to agree. A few other under the radar assist wizards....the whole Big 3......Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe....alll possessed jaw dropping passing skills. They didn't have the big huge assist totals, but damn, those 3 were amazing players. I thought Ron Francis was a great set up guy also.

[JackStraw]

Thornton is definitely one of the best playmakers I've ever seen. Probably in my top 10 if I were to try to put one together.

Jean Ratelle probably deserves at least a mention in there too.

[jammer2]

@yave1964    Oh, my bad, you had Francis, missed him on the list. I'm right there with you Yave...Joe is elite, but can't crack my top ten. He's just not as dynamic or electric as Forsberg, Sakic, Stevie Y etc, etc.

[J0e Th0rnton]

 

Thornton at 34 is 25th all time in assists, just four behind Bobby Clarke. He has led the league 3 times in assists, came in 2nd twice and 3rd once, he is second this year.

  Assists per game for his career he is 23rd, playing most of his career in a dead puck era. Active players ahead of him are Sid Crosby, Malkin and Nick Backstrom. Most others ahead of him played in the high scoring 80's.

That is a big deal to me. A lot of the guys on this list have not lead the NHL in assists or near the top near as much as Thornton.

 

Leading the NHL in assists 3 times in a row is not exactly common unless your name is Gretzky. Neither are 90 assist seasons. He won those 90 assist seasons by a pretty big margin too.

 

 

There are some, many even who consider Thornton a prima Donna after the Bruins dealt him to the Sharks for Marco Strum, Wayne Primeau and Brad Stuart. After dealing Thornton, the Bruins started a whisper campaign in the East coast media they painted him as a brittle me first player, a modern Lindros if you will. Perception and reality are not the same as he has not missed ten games in his Sharks career, but playing out west this gets missed.

I had been a huge Boston fan during that whole ordeal, and I can tell you that bruin fans were LIVID that ownership was trying to paint him as the bad guy. For 2 reasons. One being he was playing that last playoff with severely torn Rib Cartilage and it is almost impossible to play. Most guys in any era would have sat out with such an injury because it makes you virtually useless. Even wearing a suit of armor, it is incredibly hard to use your arms properly or have any twisting motions to your torso(Winding up for a shot or pass) or make any sort of cutting motions on your skates. In short, it turns you into a pylon.

 

Joe annoyed Jeremy Jacobs by refusing to sign a contract during the lockout until he saw that the bruins were going finally put forth the money to win and sign players. (Boston was the place that let go of superstars if they wanted money and while having the 5th lowest payroll in the NHL, they were 2nd in profits every year). It was a bad time.

 

Granted, they did go sign players(Considering they only had 3 players on contract, they were in a position to rebuild any way they wanted), but they were very stupid and signed a bunch of big slow guys, not realizing the new NHL was going to be more finesse friendly. They let go of Nylander, Rolston and Knuble(Who all went on to have career years on new teams) while signing guys like Scatchard, Mceachern, resign Travis Green, Tom Fitgerald and the big one, Alexei Zhamnov(Who was injury prone and the only guy left). I suppose signing Leetch was a big move, but he was horrible defensively and on his last legs.

 

The team sucked. The ONLY player doing anything to win was Thornton. He had 33 points in 23 games and nobody else on the team had more than 20. I still remember the game vs NJD he had a goal, 3 assists and was +3.....and they lost. It was insane. The team on the ice with him was beyond bad. When they traded Joe to the Sharks, the team was in 10th in the east and had just received 3 quality players(No superstars, but great players). By the end of the season they had dropped to 5th worst in the LEAGUE. They looked like the oilers do today. The Sharks on the other hand had been the 2nd worst team in the league and were on a 10 game losing streak, with a record of 8 wins/12 losses/4 OT/SO losses. With Joe, even though they lost 3 quality players, they went 36 wins/15 losses/7 OT/SO losses. The bruins had 2 years of abject mediocrity and went to sign some big free agents, cut the dead wood and FINALLY let Tim Thomas play(He played 4 games in 03 and Bruins fans were dying to know why the Bruins decided to keep crappy goalies instead)

 

 

The Sharks have never won a cup, in spite of enormous talent and some great regular seasons the Thornton/Marleau era has never even gotten them to the finals. Roenick has publicly blasted the Sharks, (especially Marleau) for the lack of intensity. When a team underperforms the stars are the ones who publicly get the blame.

  He is enormous, 6 feet 2 over two hundred pounds and is a pass first shoot as the last option player and has a reputation for playing softer than his size. This is a common complaint of fans and he seems to be called out for it every year. Some validity may actually apply.

Roenick (Who had been their teammate the previous year)actually praised Thornton while calling Marleau "Gutless" in the media blasting I remember well.

Thornton is 6'4 actually, and does hit a hell of a lot. The problem is, he tends to get penalties and suspended when he does. He can be a nasty SOB.

 

 

In essense the case against Thornton as a great player is a combination of perception and playing on the West coast where East coast fans do not get to see him every night. As a Wings fan, let me tell you I hate Pavelski the most of any shark but Thornton has thrust a dagger in more than once.

Its funny, because Most wings fans, LA fans, Blues fans, Ducks fans and Canucks fans say the same thing. They just do not see where he gets his choker label because he tends to play very well and tilts the ice into the opposing zone while many of his teammates find a way to lose the game.

 

 

This is running a bit long, the gist was supposed to be, is Thornton an all time great playmaker? I rank the greatest playmakers of all time:

1. Gretzky

2. Lemieux

3. Orr

4. Crosby

5. Forsberg

6. Dionne

7. Peter Stastny

8. Clarke

9. Sakic

10. Yzerman

11. Coffey

12. Trottier

13. Bossy

14. Perreault

15. Francis

16. Oates

17. Messier

18. H. Sedin

19. Beliveau

20. d. Savard

Strictly playmaking. Gretz and Lemieux are obvious. As is Orr. Crosby over Thornton? Not a chance. Never lead the league in assists, although being runner up 3 times, and his next highest finishes are 7th and 8th. A per game metric is useless here. If you are not on the ice, you are not helping your team win and are not the best playmaker if you miss half the season or more 3-4 times. A full or nearly full season holds more weight. In playmaking finishes, Thornton effectively blows him away. The same can be said about a lot of people on this list other than Oates.

 

How does Jagr NOT make this list? He lead the NHL in assists 3 times and was top 10 in assists 10 times. Yzerman, in playmaking, was 3rd, 3rd, 7th, 7th and 10th in assists. Jagr figuratively and literally blows him out of the water even if you take Gretzky and Lemieux out of the picture(Which some do because they were stupid good), but if you take them out for Yzerman, take them out for Oates and look where he ends up. Bossy on this list of playmakers REALLY perplexes me. He finished 4th, 6th and 9th in assists and never broke the top 10 aside from those. Francis was more of a compiler who was rarely outstanding when not being carried by Jagr or Lemieux.

 

Outside of those Monstrous 3(Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr), Oates, Jagr and Thornton pretty much are the toast of this list for playmaking. Especially Oates.

 

Also look at the guys they made better. Cheechoo does not come near a Rocket Richard Trophy without Joe Thornton, and to be honest, Brett Hull does not have those stupid good goal scoring seasons without Oates.

[yave1964]

@JackStraw@jammer2

 

Ratelle and Darryl Sittler were names I struggled keeping off the list. Ratelle is a very close match to Thornton in a lot of ways, a solid skilled passer and certain HOFer who never won a cup. Cup wins keep you remembered, people remember specific seasons and tend to glorify them. That is why guys like Ratelle and Sittler end up forgotten.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@yave1964    Oh, my bad, you had Francis, missed him on the list. I'm right there with you Yave...Joe is elite, but can't crack my top ten. He's just not as dynamic or electric as Forsberg, Sakic, Stevie Y etc, etc.

That's the thing. Yes they were fleet of foot and electric players, but in terms of pure playmaking, Joe just beats them. He might not look as flashy, or dangle like Yzerman and Forsberg, but he finds those holes and exploits them. Sakic himself did not look like an electric player compared to Forsberg or Yzerman, but I think he was better than either of them.

[yave1964]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Gotta completely disagree with you one hundred percent on Crosby. The man is an assist machine and is duking it out (with Thornton) attempting to lead the league this year. I understand what you are saying about the injuries but I still feel he is an amazing playmaker who deserves the ranking.

 

  I was never a big Adam Oates fan. I could have kicked the Wings for dealing him for the ghost of Federko (another great assist man) but what you said about Hull not getting the stats if it weren't for Oates, I feel the opposite. Look at Oates after he left St. Louis, 2 damn good years with Boston and then still solid but IMHO like you said about Francis I feel Oates was a compiler from then on.

 

  Jagr i screwed up and listed Bossy 13th when i meant Jagr. I can see your point for ranking him higher however. @jammer2 noticed i had bossy there, i meant Jagr, that was my bad.

 

  I cannot for the life of me see how you could rank Thornton ahead of Dionne or Forsberg at this point. Peter Stastny IMHO is the most underrated passer in the history of the game.

 I see Thornton as a HOFer if he retires right now and could finish as an all time great, but he needs a couple of more years. There certainly is nothing wrong with that.

[J0e Th0rnton]

@J0e Th0rnton

 

Gotta completely disagree with you one hundred percent on Crosby. The man is an assist machine and is duking it out (with Thornton) attempting to lead the league this year. I understand what you are saying about the injuries but I still feel he is an amazing playmaker who deserves the ranking.

 

  I was never a big Adam Oates fan. I could have kicked the Wings for dealing him for the ghost of Federko (another great assist man) but what you said about Hull not getting the stats if it weren't for Oates, I feel the opposite. Look at Oates after he left St. Louis, 2 damn good years with Boston and then still solid but IMHO like you said about Francis I feel Oates was a compiler from then on.

 

  Jagr i screwed up and listed Bossy 13th when i meant Jagr. I can see your point for ranking him higher however. @jammer2 noticed i had bossy there, i meant Jagr, that was my bad.

 

  I cannot for the life of me see how you could rank Thornton ahead of Dionne or Forsberg at this point. Peter Stastny IMHO is the most underrated passer in the history of the game.

 I see Thornton as a HOFer if he retires right now and could finish as an all time great, but he needs a couple of more years. There certainly is nothing wrong with that.

Crosby is still young and in his prime. Thornton is 34 going on 35 and is neck and Neck with the prodigy. That tells me he is a better playmaker.

 

Oates Left StLouis, where people felt he was being boosted by Hull. Hull had a dramatic goal dropoff with Craig Janney, while oates went on to hit his best season ever at age 30 with 45 goals and 142 points. The next season, Cam Neely came back and was able to play half the season and hit 50 goals in 44 games. Neely's previous high in a full season was 55 goals. Boston pretty much went down the crapper the following seasons aside from oates and Bourque, nobody on the team even hitting 30 goals in a high scoring era, and still Oates was able to finish top 10 in scoring and 4th in assists. Scoring dropped off pretty globally after 96, and Oates was still able to finish 1st in assists twice and 2nd once in his late 30's. Bondra ended up winning the rocket Richard again in his first full season with Oates.

 

You have to keep in mind Oates was not drafted and only had 1st line opportunities in StLouis at Age 27 and at age 32 is when you see stars start to drop off drastically in some cases.

[yave1964]

@yave1964  Nice thread. Joe has so many different types of deadly passes. His saucer pass is one of the best ever. He throws in some of those shot/pass hybrid's that are like rockets but always right on the blade. His backhand pass is also elite.

 

  Ha, it's funny.....when I first read his assist total, I thought to myself, damn...he *has* to be close to Clarke!  I think most people view Clarke as an all time elite playmaker, and Joe is about to obliterate Bobby's totals. At 34 he seems to have only lost a half a step or so....he's coping with father time quite well.

 

  Like pods said, a lifetime of inevitably losing in the playoffs is wearing on guy. He's such an ultra competitive guy, this post season losing must be just killing him. The good news is, the Sharks window to winning will remain open for quite some time, Nemi should be in his prime for a while still, Marleau, Pavalski....and now the young star Hertel is added to the mix. They have a nice core.

 

 Just curious as to why Bossy was on this list, I always viewed him as a trigger man, not a playmaker. A few guys who did not make the list, but where terrific playmakers...Jean Reattle and Rick Middleton, not real superstars.....but just a notch below. If you talked to an older Leaf fan, they would tell you that Dave Keon deserves mention....and I would have a tendency to agree. A few other under the radar assist wizards....the whole Big 3......Larry Robinson, Serge Savard and Guy Lapointe....alll possessed jaw dropping passing skills. They didn't have the big huge assist totals, but damn, those 3 were amazing players. I thought Ron Francis was a great set up guy also.

  Bossy was a slip, i meant to type Jagr. i had been looking at their statistics side by side comparing them for another study based on players statistics before the age of 30 which i am working on. my bad.

 

  Dave Keon. I have an autographed card of Keon in a Minnesota Fighting Saints jersey. Explain that to a kid.

[Vanflyer]

Also look at the guys they made better. Cheechoo does not come near a Rocket Richard Trophy without Joe Thornton, and to be honest, Brett Hull does not have those stupid good goal scoring seasons without Oates.

 

A stunning and impressive rebuttal. Nicely done. 

[Vanflyer]

I cannot for the life of me see how you could rank Thornton ahead of Dionne or Forsberg at this point.

 

The thing is play-maker it comes sometimes comes down to flash (imo). Thornton makes it look so easy and effortless (almost lazy to the eye at times). Where as a guy like forsberg could work inside a phone both to work his magic and just mesmerize the crowd and opposition-  he made it look like work (which it equally was / is for both players). The other part is are we talking playmaker or greatest set-up guy? I see on this thread where folks are quoting assists stats. The greatest playmaker will also have scored a ton of goals.  We also have to think about era. I would probably split the eras between pre-90's / post-90's for this dialogue. 

Edited April 5, 2014 by Vanflyer

[yave1964]

The thing is play-maker it comes sometimes comes down to flash (imo). Thornton makes it look so easy and effortless (almost lazy to the eye at times). Where as a guy like forsberg could work inside a phone both to work his magic and just mesmerize the crowd and opposition-  he made it look like work (which it equally was / is for both players). The other part is are we talking playmaker or greatest set-up guy? I see on this thread where folks are quoting assists stats. The greatest playmaker will also have scored a ton of goals.  We also have to think about era. I would probably split the eras between pre-90's / post-90's for this dialogue. 

 Absolutely gotta consider era. Otherwise all of the greatest offensive players of all time would have to have come from the 1980's. That is what makes Thornton and Crosby so much more impressive when you consider the time that they played.

  It was very difficult as a Wings fan to keep Datsyuk off this list, but he is slowing down due to injuries and does not have the eye popping numbers of most of these guys from this list, including those from his own era. He was and is so much more than just his offensive abiliy however (as are most of these guys), truthfully his offenisvie abilities are a smaller portion of his overall game than any other star forward that i can think of. He just does everything right, but this thread was started because our Joe Thornton commented elsewhere about the real Joe Thornton being an all time great playmaker and I wanted to satisfy myself on the subject. I don't think i can be convinced to rank him any higher than just outside of the top ten, but that is still damn good for a 34 year old who is still going strong. Very underrated player for a long time because of his market and time zone.

[J0e Th0rnton]

The thing is play-maker it comes sometimes comes down to flash (imo). Thornton makes it look so easy and effortless (almost lazy to the eye at times). Where as a guy like forsberg could work inside a phone both to work his magic and just mesmerize the crowd and opposition-  he made it look like work (which it equally was / is for both players). The other part is are we talking playmaker or greatest set-up guy? I see on this thread where folks are quoting assists stats. The greatest playmaker will also have scored a ton of goals.  We also have to think about era. I would probably split the eras between pre-90's / post-90's for this dialogue. 

Traditionally, the NHL labels playmakers specifically as set up guys. 

[J0e Th0rnton]

I will weigh in and put Gilbert Perrault at number one.  His ability to skate like the wind, stick handle as good as any player I have ever seen, like Orr did also, and he was like the Ty Cobb of hockey.  Gretzky grew up going  to the arena to watch him.  He would rather set up Rick Martin or Rene Robert than score himself.  He was more than unselfish.  I had always wished he had shot more often.  But he was the type that looked to make the pretty, dazzling play.  I say nobody was better at setting up a scorer.  He was the most fun to watch player I have ever seen

Number 1 over even Gretzky? That's ridiculous

[yave1964]

Number 1 over even Gretzky? That's ridiculous

This guy thinks Ryan Miller is the all time best goalie, that Jerry Korab is the best d-man and that Don Luce should have been elected mayor of Buffalo. Nice guy but about as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh.

[J0e Th0rnton]

This guy thinks Ryan Miller is the all time best goalie, that Jerry Korab is the best d-man and that Don Luce should have been elected mayor of Buffalo. Nice guy but about as unbiased as Rush Limbaugh.

Rofl. I suppose he has a grudge against Hasek?