CBJ trades Umberger for Hartnell

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Trade itself is not one that will shift the balance of power anywhere, but both teams, IMO, did what they set out to do:

 

Philly shed a long contract for a shorter one, get a better defensive player (probably a better skater too), and got a durable player who is very disciplined on the ice, yet still a tough checker.

 

 

The Jackets trade away a guy in Umberger whom they could easily replace (let's face it, tough PK checking forwards are NOT that hard to come by) with a guy who, as long as he is healthy is a bit more of a scoring threat, definitely brings more 'sandpaper' to the party, quite a vocal leader, and when properly motivated and NOT falling down (and playing AGAINST Philly may be a HUGE motivator for the proud Hartnell), can be a beast on the ice.

 

I think the Jackets know exactly what they are getting in Hartnell and are willing to take the chance on his play and health in the hopes that he helps spark the offense a bit more on the team....also, he brings a sort of 'bodyguard' mentality you Flyer fans know all too well, for the skilled players on the Jackets.

 

Overall, I still would give the edge in this trade (for now anyways) to the Flyers because I think they just got a better overall package, especially when you factor in a 4th round pick in a deep 2015 draft, and of course, for Philly, this may be a prelude to other things either later this off season or a bit down the road.

[fanaticV3.0]

Same here.

 

 

 

 

You could drop him down to 2nd line, it's not THAT big a difference. I don't think Hartnell prevented the team from going out and getting a true top line LW. His contract sucks but more because of the term than the cap hit (which Umberger's is about the same anyway).

 

My problem is not with trading Hartnell so much as it is with trading Hartnell for Umberger and a 4th round pick. I think you trade from a position of strength to address a position of weakness. LW is not a position of strength for the Flyers and I don't think Umberger significantly addresses any real position of weakness.

 

1. Hartnell is not a first line winger, so it's not like we lost one.

2. Umberger can play both wing and center. He also plays on the PK.

3. Hartnell does not play on the PK and takes more penalties.

4. They got a pick in return.

5. Umberger's contract is slightly "less bad"

 

This is a win even if Umberger isn't a great player. I think you're just upset somebody you like was traded. Truthfully, I'm kind of bummed he's gone too (there was a time I'd never even think that let alone say it), but it's not relevant.

[JackStraw]

I think you're just upset somebody you like was traded.

 

I like Hartnell but not enough to get upset by him getting traded. Like I said in another post, it's not the fact that he was traded but what he was traded for. Just doesn't seem like a particularly good use of assets to me.

[aziz]

Hartnell plays a gritty game. He wreaks havoc in front of the net. He fights. He slashes. He's the kind of guy you hate playing against. Neither one of them is a game changer, but Hartnell, to me anyway, is harder to play against. Or tougher. Or meaner.

 

true.  but, at the end of the game, the other team is going, "man, i hate playing against hartnell, i have bruises all over.  upside, he handed us two poweplays, and we scored on one," and i think they'll take that deal any day.

 

i do get what you are saying, but the difference in PIMs taken by hartnell versus umberger all by itself moves the flyers from the most penalized team in the league down to 4th or 5th.  losing the sandpaper will hurt in some ways, but it isn't like the rest of the team are sissies.  and more even strength time is a good thing.

[flyercanuck]

@JackStraw

 

I think if Hartnell had a year or two left on his contract he'd have a lot more value in a trade. FIVE years on a guy who plays his style is kind of scary. So his value goes down IMO.

[JackStraw]

re: dropping him to second line, i think it is a pretty large difference.  taking passes from giroux versus taking passes from schenn/VLC.  hartnell didn't bring a ton of his own offensive ability to the table, he just converted others' ability into goals.  that's a thing, but his ultimate effectiveness road on who was setting him up.  i don't have numbers, but as i remember he essentially dissappeared when not skating on the top unit.

 

Hartnell was effective playing with Briere at center and with Carter at center. If you can be effective with Carter as your center you can be effective with anyone.

 

But I don't want to bemoan the loss of Hartnell too much, and Hextall deserves the benefit of some doubt for now.

[fanaticV3.0]

 Hartnell plays a gritty game. He wreaks havoc in front of the net. He fights. He slashes. He's the kind of guy you hate playing against. Neither one of them is a game changer, but Hartnell, to me anyway, is harder to play against. Or tougher. Or meaner.

 

I doubt many people say "I hate playing against RJ Umberger." 

 

But in years 4 and 5 of his contract my guess is we're all glad he's gone.

 

I don't know if you remember just how much I hated Hartnell back in the PTPITN days, but I did. I grew to accept him and sort of like him over the years. But if you think people are afraid of or intimidated by him, you might have fallen on the ice one too many times (Hartnell is that you?).

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw

 

I think if Hartnell had a year or two left on his contract he'd have a lot more value in a trade. FIVE years on a guy who plays his style is kind of scary. So his value goes down IMO.

 

Yeah, you're probably right about that.

[fanaticV3.0]

I like Hartnell but not enough to get upset by him getting traded. Like I said in another post, it's not the fact that he was traded but what he was traded for. Just doesn't seem like a particularly good use of assets to me.

 

So you're upset we got a guy who can play center and wing, kills penalties, cost less money, and a pick? As the kids say these days, "seems legit."

[aziz]

Hartnell was effective playing with Briere at center and with Carter at center.

 

was he?  he had that one 60 point season, i don't remember who was centering him for that.  the rest were mid-40's in terms of points, until giroux-jagr.  is 45 points being effective on the 1st line?

[flyercanuck]

true.  but, at the end of the game, the other team is going, "man, i hate playing against hartnell, i have bruises all over.  upside, he handed us two poweplays, and we scored on one," and i think they'll take that deal any day.

 

i do get what you are saying, but the difference in PIMs taken by hartnell versus umberger all by itself moves the flyers from the most penalized team in the league down to 4th or 5th.  losing the sandpaper will hurt in some ways, but it isn't like the rest of the team are sissies.  and more even strength time is a good thing.

 

I don't think Hartnell is a far superior player to Umberger or anything. He just makes you pay to play against him. You know you were in a war so to say.

 

eg. When you play the Bruins, Lucic is a bastard to play against. Bergeron is a gentleman. At the end of the day, you'll likely score more goals against Lucic (or Hartnell) than you would against the more defensively responsible Bergeron (or Umberger). But you're going to feel it playing against guys like Lucic.  

[JackStraw]

So you're upset we got a guy who can play center and wing, kills penalties, cost less money, and a pick? As the kids say these days, "seems legit."

 

I'm not particularly upset. I just don't think it was a particularly good trade. ymmv.

[murraycraven]

_{Can someone help me out here?  Please?}

 

_{We trade one bad contract for another bad contract (albeit a shorter one) and get a player in return that is not as good as the one we traded:  How does this translate as a good trade, as it stands today, for the Flyers?}

 

_{Umberger is not faster than Hartnell (when in the upright position).   I really dont understand this one...}

[murraycraven]

So you're upset we got a guy who can play center and wing, kills penalties, cost less money, and a pick? As the kids say these days, "seems legit."

 

 

Lets not go overboard... his cap hit is nearly the same for the next 3 years and the 4th pick is nothing.  The only benefit is defense and a shorter term... other than that (which does us nothing for the next 3 years) we lost the deal.

[aziz]

eg. When you play the Bruins, Lucic is a bastard to play against. Bergeron is a gentleman. At the end of the day, you'll likely score more goals against Lucic (or Hartnell) than you would against the more defensively responsible Bergeron (or Umberger). But you're going to feel it playing against guys like Lucic.  

 

very true.  and you want your team to be hard to play against in that way.  you want the other guys to feel it.  

 

honest question, though:  what is the actual wins/losses value in that?

 

i don't have an answer.  similar to having a designated fighting specialist...you want your team to be able to answer that bell, but does it really help anything outside of pride?  

 

i feel like if your whole team has that mentality, where the whole roster leaves the others using icepacks for days, that can be a thing.  one guy here or there, though...does it actually help anything?

[JackStraw]

was he?  he had that one 60 point season, i don't remember who was centering him for that.  the rest were mid-40's in terms of points, until giroux-jagr.  is 45 points being effective on the 1st line?

 

Since joining the Flyers he's pretty consistently been somewhere around 25 goals a year. He had one real off year in 09-10 where he was under 20, I don't remember what was going on that year. Generally he's been a guy who can be counted on to score 20+ goals a year.

[murraycraven]

I don't remember what was going on that year.

 

Cartsy was banging his wife :blink:

[JackStraw]

Cartsy was banging his wife :blink:

 

Oh... right.

[flyercanuck]

I don't know if you remember just how much I hated Hartnell back in the PTPITN days, but I did. I grew to accept him and sort of like him over the years. But if you think people are afraid of or intimidated by him, you might have fallen on the ice one too many times (Hartnell is that you?).

 

I hated him too, but understand his role.

 

I said he was tough to play against. I never said I thought everyone was scared of him. You'd have to be a complete idiotic numbskull to think I said that. (pretty good fanaticism, huh?)

[flyercanuck]

very true.  and you want your team to be hard to play against in that way.  you want the other guys to feel it.  

 

honest question, though:  what is the actual wins/losses value in that?

 

i don't have an answer.  similar to having a designated fighting specialist...you want your team to be able to answer that bell, but does it really help anything outside of pride?  

 

i feel like if your whole team has that mentality, where the whole roster leaves the others using icepacks for days, that can be a thing.  one guy here or there, though...does it actually help anything?

 

I think it's good to have a blend. Again I'm not morning the loss of Hartnell, and am glad to be rid of the tail end of that contract. But he brought something that only one player on the team now has...toughness AND scoring.

[murraycraven]

something that only one player on the team now has...toughness AND scoring.

 

So basically we have Simmer to get in front of the net as it stands now.  

[King Knut]

Huh?

Money saver? Wasn't RJ a center? Is he no longer?

Didn't Scotty have a NMC?

I guess this was all about the money because quite frankly, I know a lot of y'all hate Scotty, but the abuse he withstands and the physical play he absorbs will have to now be addressed by someone else and quite frankly everyone we have on the top three, we will need to be scoring.

Money wise I applaud it.

I hope there's more to unfold though and that Hexy didn't make this move just to overpay B.Schenn

[King Knut]

I see he's a LW now.

Who did they get him to play with?

coots maybe? RJ used to be pretty strong defensively.

Huh?

Money saver? Wasn't RJ a center? Is he no longer?

[murraycraven]

I guess this was all about the money because quite frankly

 

I get it from the "years" standpoint but the cap hit for the next 3 seasons is nearly identicle.   If Schenn is the defacto LWer on the 1st line now Hexy gavce him more bargaining power.   I really am confused about this one...   I dont see this as an upgrade whatsoever and considering Umbie was a healthy scratch a few games this year... well, I am confused

[OccamsRazor]

How does this translate as a good trade, as it stands today, for the Flyers?

 

Ok where to begin. Hartnell scored 9 power play goals last year RJ scored 8 so it seems even to me.

 

Over the last 4 years Hartnell has chalked up 451 penalty minutes putting his team shorthanded as you can tell alot. RJ over the past 4 year span only had a total of 107 penalty minutes so that is a BIG improvement in the discipline category that Berube has preached since he took over.

 

RJ plays on the PK....which Hartnell doesn't.

 

RJ is more varsatile has plyed center RW and LW. Hartnell barley at times with two great linemates in Giroux and Jake play LW.

 

How many countless times did we see G and Jake fight hustle to keep the puck in the offensive zone and pass to Hartnell for him to immediately either fall down or just turn the puck over???

 

In the 7 games series this past season playing G and Jake he scored as many goals as me. And just 3 wittle assists. So he was tried and he just can't keep up or is miscast as a top line LW.

 

And RJ is slightly cheaper @ 150K less and is signed for only 3 more years intead of trying to find a place for Hartnell for 5 MORE YEARS!!!!

 

Let's see did i forget anything???

 

Yes noone yet that i have seen has claimed RJ to be the missing piece to the Stanley Cup just a more versatile forward who will not fall nowhere as much.

 

It just makes since for the reason i listed and i like the deal. Had Hartnell been signed for just 3 more years then maybe i wouldn't but as of now i like it.

 

And who is faster between RJ and Scotty is debatable i think.

 

Does this put into perspective enough for you?