Tanking is hard

[radoran]

He turned down 4 x 4 on the island.

 

Doesn't that speak to brelic's point that players are turning down higher contracts to find the right "fit"?

 

Obviously, MacDud didn't want to be on the Island anymore.

 

Homercoaster™ then proceeded to outbid himself on the signing.

 

it was clear to anyone not named Homer that there was really no reasonable way for VLC to live up to the expectations of that contract. Bryz was signed for NINE years - again, there is just no reasonable way for him to live up to that contract. Name one starting goaltender in the NHL who is over 40 and getting paid $5M per year. That's what Bryz would have had to be to earn that contract. He was signed until his 40s.

 

20/50 guys get $4+M in this league. They were projecting VLC as a 20/50 guy and then played him in positions where he simply couldn't make up the assists needed. And he only clung to 20 by virtue of 6-on-5 and power play goals (8 PPG and, if memory serves, three 6-on-5). He had 1/3 of his points on the PP (13 of 37).

 

Totally agree, that VLC was in obvious decline and the length was ridiculous. The egregious problem was that there was no "fit" for VLC on this squad. He had to be a 1/2 line center for it to make any sense, and the Flyers were (and are) overstocked in that department before VLC even got here.

 

As we've previously discussed - or I've previously said, anyway - I never expected Bryzgalov to finish that contract here. It was clearly a "retire to Russia" deal (just for the record, he would have been 40 when the contract ended and the last two years of the deal were $2.25M and $1.25M "actual money").

[fanaticV3.0]

I agree that we certainly like to overpay but every player there listed DESERVES to be criticized... they simply are not/have not lived up to the contract they signed.  MDZ is the only one that I think is getting the shaft and RJ can't even be included in the statement b/c he is still playing - lord knows why.  Additionally, another Team gave RJ that stupid contract.

 

It is not like these guys say "you know Homer, I am really not that good so let's lessen the contract by 4 years and few million."   Not saying Homer is not culpable (b/c he very much is) but the players are not worth the price - simple.as.that.

 

Criticize away, never said that you couldn't, and actually agree with everything you said.

 

My comment was more along the lines of, "How we treat them? What, you mean well?" You are almost guaranteed to be overpaid if you come here.

[murraycraven]

Doesn't that speak to brelic's point that players are turning down higher contracts to find the right "fit"?

 

Obviously, MacDud didn't want to be on the Island anymore.

 

Homercoaster then proceeded to outbid himself on the signing.

 

 

 

 

20/50 guys get $4+M in this league. They were projecting VLC as a 20/50 guy and then played him in positions where he simply couldn't make up the assists needed. And he only clung to 20 by virtue of 6-on-5 and power play goals (8 PPG and, if memory serves, three 6-on-5). He had 1/3 of his points on the PP (13 of 37).

 

Totally agree, that VLC was in obvious decline and the length was ridiculous. The egregious problem was that there was no "fit" for VLC on this squad. He had to be a 1/2 line center for it to make any sense, and the Flyers were (and are) overstocked in that department before VLC even got here.

 

As we've previously discussed - or I've previously said, anyway - I never expected Bryzgalov to finish that contract here. It was clearly a "retire to Russia" deal (just for the record, he would have been 40 when the contract ended and the last two years of the deal were $2.25M and $1.25M "actual money").

 

 

and Homer outbid himself w/ Bryz as well.

[murraycraven]

You are almost guaranteed to be overpaid if you come here.

 

no argument there at all... I wish I could sign w/ the Flyers

[radoran]

Criticize away, never said that you couldn't, and actually agree with everything you said.

 

My comment was more along the lines of, "How we treat them? What, you mean well?" You are almost guaranteed to be overpaid if you come here.

 

no argument there at all... I wish I could sign w/ the Flyers

 

Which, if the Flyers truly are a desirable destination for talent, is in-freaking-sane.

 

I'm not at all saying I agree that they are a "desirable destination" but it is a mantra that Flyers fans seem to take to heart in general.

 

If the team always competes, loves its players, treats them like gold and FAs "want to come here" to be a part of that - why do they seem to feel the need to overpay???

[fanaticV3.0]

no argument there at all... I wish I could sign w/ the Flyers

 

You will need the help of some friends/family, but it's not impossible. Buy a bunch of jerseys of a couple of European teams. Rent a rink for about a half hour. Tell everyone involved to make you look really good whenever you have the puck. Make a DVD of it and write "Best player not in the NHL" on it and you've got a legitimate chance.

[flyercanuck]

I'm hoping we get away from the FA chase that the Flyers feel they need to be in every single year. I have no problem doing it when you feel like you honestly have a shot. The reality is you don't honestly have a shot every single year. I hope Hextall isn't going to be handcuffed by Holmgrens stupid signings when he actually wants to go after someone. "What, you're offering me a 3 year deal at $4.5 when you gave Bryz/McDud/VLC/fill in the blank THAT?"

[fanaticV3.0]

Which, if the Flyers truly are a desirable destination for talent, is in-freaking-sane.

 

I'm not at all saying I agree that they are a "desirable destination" but it is a mantra that Flyers fans seem to take to heart in general.

 

If the team always competes, loves its players, treats them like gold and FAs "want to come here" to be a part of that - why do they seem to feel the need to overpay???

 

I remember having an argument with NTP over at PTPITN about Philly being a desirable destination. I thought he greatly overstated his case. I don't think we are hockey Siberia, but after 40 years without a Cup, I also don't think we're anywhere near the tops of many players lists anymore. The jig is up - people know we don't win Cups.

 

My best guess is it is a philosophy either directly or indirectly passed down from the old man. He either told Homer to do whatever it takes to get things done or very strongly implied that. In fact, I swear I just heard him quoted as saying he doesn't care about the salary cap. He's willing to spend whatever to get what he wants.

[brelic]

What do you mean? Overpay them and guarantee them they won't be traded without their ok?

 

No, I mean setting them so that it is not possible for them to live up to expectations. There's no way any of those guys (Bryz, VLC, MacDud) can live up to the expectations of their contract - and their contracts bring with them heavy expectations from fans and media.

 

I'm not saying they weren't looking for money - of course they were. I mean, look at Niskanen - he's not exactly shining in Washington; neither is Orpik. And they both signed huge contracts.

 

It's not just Philly. But we're the best at doing it, I would say. And we do it often.

[murraycraven]

Which, if the Flyers truly are a desirable destination for talent, is in-freaking-sane.

I'm not at all saying I agree that they are a "desirable destination" but it is a mantra that Flyers fans seem to take to heart in general.

If the team always competes, loves its players, treats them like gold and FAs "want to come here" to be a part of that - why do they seem to feel the need to overpay???

Cause they still have no understanding of the salary cap thing?

[brelic]

If the team always competes, loves its players, treats them like gold and FAs "want to come here" to be a part of that - why do they seem to feel the need to overpay???

 

Excellent. The truth is probably that it's not as desirable as we'd like to think. It's not terrible by any stretch - they always field a competitive team. But, yeah, if it's so desirable, why do we constantly overpay? 

 

I think all the shiny UFAs do tend to get overpaid (or rather they set a new market benchmark). The part that bothers me as a fan is the length.

 

Pay MacDud $10M for this year, I don't care. Just don't commit 6 years to him. He's not a core player, you've seen all of 19 games as a Flyer. Why would you make that kind of commitment to him?

[fanaticV3.0]

No, I mean setting them so that it is not possible for them to live up to expectations. There's no way any of those guys (Bryz, VLC, MacDud) can live up to the expectations of their contract - and their contracts bring with them heavy expectations from fans and media.

 

I'm not saying they weren't looking for money - of course they were. I mean, look at Niskanen - he's not exactly shining in Washington; neither is Orpik. And they both signed huge contracts.

 

It's not just Philly. But we're the best at doing it, I would say. And we do it often.

 

Teams overpay and players under perform. You can be overpaid and still be a decent player (Hartnell for example). If you are overpaid and not a good player, that is on you. Both parties deserve to be blamed in that instance.

 

I drafted Niskanen fairly high in my fantasy league. I dropped him in a few weeks.

[radoran]

Cause they still have no understanding of the salary cap thing?

After insisting that they absolutely HAD to have it, too...

Insanity

[fanaticV3.0]

Excellent. The truth is probably that it's not as desirable as we'd like to think. It's not terrible by any stretch - they always field a competitive team. But, yeah, if it's so desirable, why do we constantly overpay? 

 

I think all the shiny UFAs do tend to get overpaid (or rather they set a new market benchmark). The part that bothers me as a fan is the length.

 

Pay MacDud $10M for this year, I don't care. Just don't commit 6 years to him. He's not a core player, you've seen all of 19 games as a Flyer. Why would you make that kind of commitment to him?

 

Agreed. I'll also add that it's not as desirable as it was in the past. They don't have as much appeal as they did even 5 years ago. Hartnell, Timomen, and Pronger were the last legit names they were able to lure here.

[radoran]

Agreed. I'll also add that it's not as desirable as it was in the past. They don't have as much appeal as they did even 5 years ago. Hartnell, Timomen, and Pronger were the last legit names they were able to lure here.

They traded for all three.

Then gave long term high priced contracts to them.

[murraycraven]

After insisting that they absolutely HAD to have it, too...

Insanity

 

 

it is also like promoting a GM of a hockey club to the president of a multi-billion dollar company

[mojo1917]

Doesn't that speak to brelic's point that players are turning down higher contracts to find the right "fit"?

 

Obviously, MacDud didn't want to be on the Island anymore.

 

Homercoaster™ then proceeded to outbid himself on the signing.

 

In MacDonald's case the" right fit" was going to be for more money.

I understand what you are saying, while at the same time I disagree with it. 

The Islanders were/are a team on the rise, lots of good young talent that he could "mentor" while playing his role on the second pairing,  keep doing what you're doing Andy we'll get better, and give you a 80% raise.  How is the scenario here better than that, without making the amount of the raise larger ? answer- It's not

 

I wonder if Homer started at 4.25 or 4.5 ?  regardless i need Andy MacDonald's agent on my team ...

[fanaticV3.0]

They traded for all three.

Then gave long term high priced contracts to them.

It wasn't one of those about to become FA situations with them?

 

Silly little details aside, they haven't had a big name who wanted to come here (I don't count VLC, because I'm talking about guys not washed up) since Pronger. When was that 5 years ago?

[radoran]

It wasn't one of those about to become FA situations with them?

 

Silly little details aside, they haven't had a big name who wanted to come here (I don't count VLC, because I'm talking about guys not washed up) since Pronger. When was that 5 years ago?

 

They traded for Hartnell and Timonen's rights and signed them to long term big money deals before they got to the FA period.

 

They traded for Pronger's existing contract and then gave him a "seven" year $34.5M contract that paid him $33.5M in five years.

 

The last "big name" FA that came here "of his own volition" was probably Briere.

 

The Islanders were/are a team on the rise, lots of good young talent that he could "mentor" while playing his role on the second pairing, keep doing what you're doing Andy we'll get better, and give you a 800% raise. How is the scenario here better than that, without making the amount of the raise larger ? answer- It's not

 

Fixed the rate of increase for you

 

Completely agree that MacDud was after money. And that's what he got.

 

He rejected the team that gave him a chance and signed here for a million more per year and two more years after playing 19 (regular season) games in Philadelphia.

 

Since he clearly only wanted the money, what's his big incentive to perform now that he has a six-year, guaranteed, $30M contract?

 

Answer - nothing. Scratch him, trade him, cut his minutes, drop his PP time, whatever - he's got what he wanted regardless.

 

Which just adds to the boneheaded nature of the signing.

[murraycraven]

You will need the help of some friends/family, but it's not impossible. Buy a bunch of jerseys of a couple of European teams. Rent a rink for about a half hour. Tell everyone involved to make you look really good whenever you have the puck. Make a DVD of it and write "Best player not in the NHL" on it and you've got a legitimate chance.

 

 

lol!  that was awesome... well done!

[JackStraw]

It wasn't one of those about to become FA situations with them?

 

Silly little details aside, they haven't had a big name who wanted to come here (I don't count VLC, because I'm talking about guys not washed up) since Pronger. When was that 5 years ago?

 

Well, Shea Weber did sign the Flyers offer sheet. Streit was arguably the top offensive d-man on the FA market and the Flyers go him. Honestly, there haven't really been a lot of big name free agents available recently, teams are locking their key guys up. And believe it or not, Bryz was the biggest name free agent goalie on the market at the time, and (for better or worse) the Flyers got him.

[radoran]

Well, Shea Weber did sign the Flyers offer sheet. Streit was arguably the top offensive d-man on the FA market and the Flyers go him. Honestly, there haven't really been a lot of big name free agents available recently, teams are locking their key guys up. And believe it or not, Bryz was the biggest name free agent goalie on the market at the time, and (for better or worse) the Flyers got him.

 

And all of those deals were big money, long term deals that (like VLC) no one else was apparently willing to offer.

 

Weber's was (and is) absolutely ridiculous. And both the length and the "signing bonus" portions of the deal are dinosaurs that can no longer be offered.

 

Streit got a four-year, $5.25M per 35+ deal. His rights were also traded for and he never got to free agency.

 

Bryz was, well, we know about Bryz's deal... His rights were also traded for and he never got to free agency.

 

Briere was the lowest cap hit of the "Big Must Have Can't Miss FA #1 Centers" (Gomez, Drury) - and still got an eight-year deal that averaged $7.8M for the first six years of the deal. I always expected a buyout of the last two years, even without a "compliance exemption."

[JackStraw]

And all of those deals were big money, long term deals that (like VLC) no one else was apparently willing to offer.

 

Weber's was (and is) absolutely ridiculous. And both the length and the "signing bonus" portions of the deal are dinosaurs that can no longer be offered.

 

Streit got a four-year, $5.25M per 35+ deal. His rights were also traded for and he never got to free agency.

 

Bryz was, well, we know about Bryz's deal... His rights were also traded for and he never got to free agency.

 

Briere was the lowest cap hit of the "Big Must Have Can't Miss FA #1 Centers" (Gomez, Drury) - and still got an eight-year deal that averaged $7.8M for the first six years of the deal. I always expected a buyout of the last two years, even without a "compliance exemption."

 

Weber's deal is actually great for Nashville. They've already payed out a big chunk of the total amount they will owe him, and since they are more of a cap floor team the cap hit isn't a problem for them. And there are no clauses (NTC, NMC). It really is not a bad contract for one of the game's true elite players.

 

Streit and Bryz- regardless of how their rights were obtained they still signed new contracts with the Flyers, which they certainly didn't have to do, and wouldn't have done if they didn't want to play for the Flyers. There really is no sign that free agents are no longer regarding the Flyers as a desirable team to play for. A lot of fan conspiracy theories but no substance. The only significant "misses" by the Flyers were Suter and Parise and everyone pretty much knew they were both going to Minnesota.

[mojo1917]

@radoran

thanks for moving that decimal for me. now i feel really queezy.

[radoran]

Weber's deal is actually great for Nashville. They've already payed out a big chunk of the total amount they will owe him, and since they are more of a cap floor team the cap hit isn't a problem for them. And there are no clauses (NTC, NMC). It really is not a bad contract for one of the game's true elite players.

 

Streit and Bryz- regardless of how their rights were obtained they still signed new contracts with the Flyers, which they certainly didn't have to do, and wouldn't have done if they didn't want to play for the Flyers. There really is no sign that free agents are no longer regarding the Flyers as a desirable team to play for. A lot of fan conspiracy theories but no substance. The only significant "misses" by the Flyers were Suter and Parise and everyone pretty much knew they were both going to Minnesota.

 

The point about Weber's deal being ridiculous is that the terms were absurd to the extent that they are now illegal in the League. I agree that Nashville (who "couldn't match the deal" at the time) is in great shape with him now.

 

Streit and Bryz were both overpaid and overlengthed - Homer outbid himself on both - which is the context of the conversation about the Flyers. If they don't overpay and/or overlength, are they still a desirable spot for FAs?

 

By all accounts, for example, it was adding the fifth year to VLC's deal that got him to sign here because no other team would offer him that. The primary cause wasn't "because he wanted to play for the Flyers" or "because he liked Lavvy's system."

 

Would anyone else have given Bryz a nine-year deal? Four years to a 35+ Streit?

 

No, we won't know for sure, because the Flyers (again) certainly overpaid and overlengthed Bryz and probably did the same with Streit.