They're going to do something stupid

[icehole]

I really don't care how his name is spelled.  I'll call him Coots for now on.  Don't give me that BS about his defensive skills.  Did you see Okposo twist him out of his skates the other week.  He looked foolish out there.  He is a -10 since his rookie year.  I could find hundreds of players that are better than -10 in that time.

[King Knut]

And Calicocococacola

 

I believe DelZotto is also his.

[King Knut]

He's putting up points so you can shut up now.

 

I really don't care how his name is spelled. I'll call him Coots for now on. Don't give me that BS about his defensive skills. Did you see Okposo twist him out of his skates the other week. He looked foolish out there. He is a -10 since his rookie year. I could find hundreds of players that are better than -10 in that time.

[radoran]

Since then he is a -10 with 64 pts in 153 games. That's correct, our amazing "shut-down" forward is a -10! These numbers are horrible but I'm more of an eye test guy. My eyes tell me he his slow physically and slow mentally when it comes to seeing a play develop.

 

Last year against playoff teams in the East, he played 21 games and was +1. +4 against Pittsburgh.

 

This year against the top 8 teams in the East he's played 11 games and is -1.

 

A 21-year-old (22 on Sunday) playing most of his time against the top competition in the league and he averages -.06 per game (-10 in 153 games)?

 

I don't really find that "horrible" at all.

[ruxpin]

Completely disagree with the "eye test" and recommend glasses.

[ruxpin]

A 21-year-old (22 on Sunday) playing most of his time against the top competition in the league and he averages -.06 per game (-10 in 153 games)?

 

I don't think that can be overstated.

[fanaticV3.0]

The Sky is Always Falling in Philadelphia.

 

I agree and it's part of the reason the old man is the way that he is. Don't get me wrong, I think he has no patience, but he does not like when fans get antsy, and he certainly doesn't like when the media does, and reacts to that.

[radoran]

I agree and it's part of the reason the old man is the way that he is. Don't get me wrong, I think he has no patience, but he does not like when fans get antsy, and he certainly doesn't like when the media does, and reacts to that.

 

A devout Randian is completely reactionary?

 

You don't say!

 

[King Knut]

Funny.  I see the exact opposite regarding him seeing a play develop. 

 

Cumulative -10 over three seasons against the top lines of every team?

 

If we want to get mad at someone for the kid not scoring more, get mad at Laviolette and Homer for insisting that he play shut down in his second season. 

 

Whenever he's taken out of that role, he scores.  Chief put him on the power play and he scores a goal and an assist in two games.  When the kid isn't scoring because he's being told to focus on shutting down.

 

The dude was shutting down the top lines in the league when he was 19 years old and we're going to get on his case for not sorting out how to pot 30 goals on top of that by the time he's 22?

 

Most shut down guys go the other direction, they start as scorers and then add defense later.  Lavvy started this kid the other way and Chief is now... well let's face it, I have no idea what Chief is doing and I don't think he does either at this point, but needless to say, he didn't move Sean to the 2nd line with Simmonds for more than half a game.

 

Until he does and until Coots spends some more of his ice time at even strength or on the power play and not killing penalties, I don't think it's fair to say he can't score.  He's been on the power play two nights and has a 2 game point streak.  I don't think it s a coincidence.  Do you?

 

If he'd been put into the lineup intended to be a pure scorer two years ago, I think we'd see more of that happening for him.  He's a solid player, if we trade him now, I guarantee you, we will be kicking ourselves when he scores 60+ points and wins a cup for a team that knows what the hell they're doing.

 

I have more affection than most for guys like Willy, Sharp, Richie, Gagne, Rusty, Carter, etc etc etc  but I'm getting a little tired of watching our former "players of the future" win cups as players of the present for teams that know what the hell they're doing.

 

 

 

At $1.75M thru next season, Couturier is more than making up his production for salary.



They don't need to determine whether to sign him long term rightnow or even next year (he's still RFA after this season).



That said, if the right deal comes along (a 2nd round pick is no where NEAR a "top 6 F" or "top 4 D") I agree you make it. Trading him for a second round pick would be a huge mistake.



And, just for the record, he has more talent in his off hand than Adam Hall and Blair Betts have combined.

My eyes tell me he his slow physically and slow mentally when it comes to seeing a play develop.

[fanaticV3.0]

Cotourier had a surprisingly solid rookie season.  Since then he is a -10 with 64 pts in 153 games.  That's correct, our amazing "shut-down" forward is a -10!  These numbers are horrible but I'm more of an eye test guy.  My eyes tell me he his slow physically and slow mentally when it comes to seeing a play develop.

You can believe Doc, Pierre, JJ, and Coatsey all you want.  He is nothing more than a third liner and that value might be a 2nd rounder.  Now if other GMs in the league are drinking the same Kool-Aid, which I believe the are, we might be able to get something nice for him.

 

I really don't care how his name is spelled.  I'll call him Coots for now on.  Don't give me that BS about his defensive skills.  Did you see Okposo twist him out of his skates the other week.  He looked foolish out there.  He is a -10 since his rookie year.  I could find hundreds of players that are better than -10 in that time.

 

 

Nobody who knows anything about the game says "So and so is a -10, because of that, he's a bad defensive player." You are advocating trading him, our best defense player. That's sign #1 of how little you know. The fact that you think he's worth a top tier defenseman is sign #2. Your use of the +/- stat is the nail in the coffin.

[ruxpin]

I agree and it's part of the reason the old man is the way that he is. Don't get me wrong, I think he has no patience, but he does not like when fans get antsy, and he certainly doesn't like when the media does, and reacts to that.

[King Knut]

I'm totally with you. 

So many of his minutes are on the PK too.  That's not going to affect his Plus Minus directly, but it is going to eat into the amount of time he has on ice that would positively affect his +/-.

 

Putting him on the power play has resulted in a two game points streak and has actually improved the PP.  If he had ice time against the other team's third line, I think we'd see more even strength goals too.  But when he's out there, it's against their big guns and his attention is on stopping them, not scoring (because it turns out in hockey preventing goals is important too).

 

Add to all of that the fact that he's played most of his minutes this year along side Umberger and Read and seriously... what do we expect from the kid?  and yes.  he's a kid.  You point it out.  He's not even 22 yet.  Most of us on this board yacking about how there's no possible way we could bring a 21 year old Shaybe Ghostisbehere into this league so soon because it's hard to be a dman in the NHL and defend against NHL caliber players and yet we're pissed off that a 22 year old Coots who defends against the absolute BEST NHL players isn't panning out to be a Patrice Bergereon 2 way threat yet?  

 

People are weird.  I don't think they think through these things.

They must just be too frustrated.  I can understand that.  Vinny we can be annoyed with. 

 

The kind of PLayer Coots is now is very valuable.  The kind of player he's headed towards being is completely invaluable.  Unloading him would be a disaster for us and a Christmas Miracle coming early for whoever gets him.

 

 

Last year against playoff teams in the East, he played 21 games and was +1. +4 against Pittsburgh.

 

This year against the top 8 teams in the East he's played 11 games and is -1.

 

A 21-year-old (22 on Sunday) playing most of his time against the top competition in the league and he averages -.06 per game (-10 in 153 games)?

 

I don't really find that "horrible" at all.

[fanaticV3.0]

 

Haha, my old man loves Walter!

[icehole]

I don't even understand what you just said.  I don't think he's worth a top tier defenseman but it seems like people around the league think he is.  I would shoot for the stars but would settle for less.

I love how +/- means nothing until we want to praise a player for being a two way player.  Then all we hear about is his +/-.  If he was our 35-40 goal scorer, I wouldn't care about his +/-.  He is our "shut-down" forward though.  I think +/- is relevant.

As for having to cover the other team's best being the reason his +/- is down, maybe he shouldn't be covering their best because he can't.

[ruxpin]

I don't even understand what you just said.  I don't think he's worth a top tier defenseman but it seems like people around the league think he is.  I would shoot for the stars but would settle for less.

I love how +/- means nothing until we want to praise a player for being a two way player.  Then all we hear about is his +/-.  If he was our 35-40 goal scorer, I wouldn't care about his +/-.  He is our "shut-down" forward though.  I think +/- is relevant.

As for having to cover the other team's best being the reason his +/- is down, maybe he shouldn't be covering their best because he can't.

 

I think the fact he's covering the other team's best AND not scoring explains the +/-, though.  The other team's best are going to score some, especially when you have tombstones on skates playing defense.  When you and your line aren't scoring at all to balance against this, it shows on the +/-.   Given that they're scoring so little, the -10 probably shows a pretty good job on the defensive side.

[ruxpin]

For example, this year, Coots is a -3.

 

Someone correct this because I'm probably forgetting something with the math.

 

So far, Couturier has 10 points, 3 coming on the PP and none on the PK.   So even strength he has 7 pts.

 

I don't know whether he's had any shorties against him on the PP, but assuming that he hasn't, the 7 pts on even strength and a -3 gets him 10 goals against on the season (even strength), correct?

 

In 25 games played, the opposing team's best line(S) has 0.4 goals per game against. 

 

If the math is close (again, correct me), then I would say that's not too shabby.

 

Conversely,

When Anze Kopitar--who is perceived to be a pretty good shutdown guy (and is)--was 21 going on 22, he scored 66 pts. but was a -17.

 

When Patrice Bergeron was 21 going on 22, he scored 70 points, but was a -28.

 

Maybe we should let the kid grow a bit.

[icehole]

He's putting up points so you can shut up now.

 

2 points in last 5 games and -1 after being called out by the organization.  I'll put my foot in my mouth.

[radoran]

I don't even understand what you just said.  I don't think he's worth a top tier defenseman but it seems like people around the league think he is.  I would shoot for the stars but would settle for less.

I love how +/- means nothing until we want to praise a player for being a two way player.  Then all we hear about is his +/-.  If he was our 35-40 goal scorer, I wouldn't care about his +/-.  He is our "shut-down" forward though.  I think +/- is relevant.

As for having to cover the other team's best being the reason his +/- is down, maybe he shouldn't be covering their best because he can't.

 

+/- is relevant. He's a shutdown player who averages (by your own math) -.06 per game since he was a rookie and he's turning 22 on Sunday.

 

That's minus six hundredths of a goal per game. Playing against the top competition. He was PLUS FOUR against the Pens last season - covering their best players. Which means, he can cover their best players.

 

+/- is relevant, but it is not making the point you want it to make.

 

When Patrice Bergeron was 21 going on 22, he scored 70 points, but was a -28.

Maybe we should let the kid grow a bit.

 

QFT

[ruxpin]

2 points in last 5 games and -1 after being called out by the organization.  I'll put my foot in my mouth.

 

Both points were on the PP.    So, in five games he's had 1 goal against him (ES. I don't know about PK)?  That's horrible. BURN HIM!

[icehole]

It scares me to see a majority of fans and parts of the organization defending "Coots" like he's Bobby Clarke out there.  I'll back out of this argument because I won't change anyone's mind.  Just keep your eyes on him though and think of me when he falls on his face.  You can also think of me when he wins the league MVP or the Selkie (sp?).  You win that when your TEAM shuts down Pittsburgh a few times a year right?

So who else would you try to move to make a difference on this team?

[radoran]

It scares me to see a majority of fans and parts of the organization defending "Coots" like he's Bobby Clarke out there.  I'll back out of this argument because I won't change anyone's mind.  Just keep your eyes on him though and think of me when he falls on his face.  You can also think of me when he wins the league MVP or the Selkie (sp?).  You win that when your TEAM shuts down Pittsburgh a few times a year right?

So who else would you try to move to make a difference on this team?

 

Nobody compared him to Bobby Clarke. Your hyperbole isn't helping you.

 

Neither is your dogged reliance on a +/- stat that is not supporting your argument at all.

 

I clearly said - as did rux - that if the right deal comes around you take it.

 

"The right deal" isn't a 2nd rounder. Trading a 22-year-old 8th overall for a 2nd rounder is not a good deal.

[flyercanuck]

@icehole Pretty sure a lot of teams would be interested in #14 if he was put up for offers. I'm even more sure, actually positive, that 29 other teams would jump all over a 2nd round pick for him. This team is screwed at least until we get rid of almost ten million in wasted capspace between RJ and Vincent. Everyone in the league knows Philly needs to make a deal if they want to right this ship. So we'll be selling low and buying high. I'd rather blow off the season, likely add some impact at the draft and look ahead to next year.

[King Knut]

How many of those 5 games was he playing the power play?

 

On team that has had a 75% failure rate offensively, why are you singling out the 22 year old who's specifically handed a non offensive priority role but who has actually been doing better recently?

 

2 points in last 5 games and -1 after being called out by the organization. I'll put my foot in my mouth.

[icehole]

I meant Bobby Clarke referring to the affection from the fan base not playing style.  Like I said, shoot for the stars but you can settle for something less if it adds value.  #8 pick means nothing if he hasn't lived up to a #8.  Yes, I know he's young.  If there aren't any good offers for him by the middle of next season and he's playing like he has for the past 3 seasons, I would settle for a 2nd round pick.  Giving him a new deal at that point would be very stupid.  Not saying it can't work out, but most likely it wouldn't.

[icehole]

Was there a reason he wasn't on the PP?  Do you think he's really good on the PP in practice but Chief has it out for him so he punishes him by putting him in a defensive role?  I'm sure they don't see great offensive abilities from him and that's why he's not on the PP.

You can't say he's putting up points when he has 2 points in 5 games and those 2 came from the last two games.  He had 8 points in 23 games...that's a sample size you can use.