Claude Monet Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Gagne is the closest thing to a top winger drafted but he wasn't a true sniper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Kovalchuk wasn't an over 35 contract. That wasn't what I meant. Even though both contracts were 'legal' and accepted by the league, they are both obvious attempts at circumvention. The Devils just seem to have come out without much harm (they even had their forfeited pick changed to a different draft year) while the Flyers can't catch any sort of break, even in the awkward situation of having a guy who is paid by, and property of, the Flyers working and collecting a paycheque from the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 That wasn't what I meant. Even though both contracts were 'legal' and accepted by the league, they are both obvious attempts at circumvention. The Devils just seem to have come out without much harm (they even had their forfeited pick changed to a different draft year) while the Flyers can't catch any sort of break, even in the awkward situation of having a guy who is paid by, and property of, the Flyers working and collecting a paycheque from the NHL.Kovalchuk was under 35 (which is key) and announced retirement. Pronger was over 35 and so the rules change about retirement. That's 100% the difference. The Devils didnt deserve a break either, but their financial woes I'm sure garnered a little forgiveness by the money first NHL. The Flyers brag about endless pockets, and so here it costs them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The Devils didnt deserve a break either, but their financial woes I'm sure garnered a little forgiveness by the money first NHL. The Flyers brag about endless pockets, and so here it costs them. Absolutely. This is the only point I was trying to make. The Devils got a break because they can't manage a financially successful organization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Absolutely. This is the only point I was trying to make. The Devils got a break because they can't manage a financially successful organization. The over 35 condition is a huge difference though. The exact reason the over 35 clause exists is to prevent what the Flyers did with Pronger. The Devils couldn't possibly assess the risk of an early retirement by a 20 something year old Kovalchuk. I'll grant them that. The Flyers got what they asked for, and the league allows them to continue abusing the salary cap by pretending Pronger could return. The Devils were still punished, just not via salary cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 The over 35 condition is a huge difference though. The exact reason the over 35 clause exists is to prevent what the Flyers did with Pronger. The Devils couldn't possibly assess the risk of an early retirement by a 20 something year old Kovalchuk. I'll grant them that. I believe they could. Certainly not two years into the deal, but I don't think they ever believed Kovalchuk would play until he was 42. Less than 1% of NHL players are over 40 in any given year. It was cap circumvention, plain and simple. Exactly like the Flyers. The types of contract are different, but the intentions were one and the same. The Flyers got what they asked for, and the league allows them to continue abusing the salary cap by pretending Pronger could return. The Devils were still punished, just not via salary cap. The only reason that's the case is because Kovalchuk 'retired', which is completely bogus and everyone knew it. It is proven by the fact that Kovalchuk is contemplating a return to the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 @brelicI see it differently. If the Devils really thought there was a chance he would walk so soon they wouldn't have given what they did. Granted they knew he most likely wouldn't play till 42 but I guarantee they expected at least to his mid-30's out of him. And the difference remains the age at the time if signing is vastly different. And now Kovalchuk can only return if all thirty teams approve is my understanding. Are the Devils going to just sit and let that happen? Let him sign with the Flyers or the Pens? The Isles or Rags? I doubt it will be that easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Top sniping wingers just aren't generally available, and I can't remember the last one the Flyers drafted AND developed. I'm not saying it is ideal, but I do strongly feel this is a major roster gap. I get your point and the Flyers do not exactly inspire confidence when it comes to developing a winger I would not be opposed to it but I really would want him on a deal that made sense for the Flyers. I would not overpay otherwise you are left with some very tough decisions about "core" players moving forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I get your point and the Flyers do not exactly inspire confidence when it comes to developing a winger I would not be opposed to it but I really would want him on a deal that made sense for the Flyers. I would not overpay otherwise you are left with some very tough decisions about "core" players moving forward. A lot can happen in four years. You want to bring in Kovalchuk on another over-35 contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 A lot can happen in four years. You want to bring in Kovalchuk on another over-35 contract? No... and that was my entire argument w/ Doom. The risk and the money he will get paid is just not worth it. I rather see someone get drafted for the top line or look in FA. If he wanted to come here on a very favorable deal for the Flyers (which he wont) I would consider it. I think there are a lot better options than trying to score another overpaid >35 frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 If the Devils really thought there was a chance he would walk so soon they wouldn't have given what they did. I believe they would have, because Kovalchuk was highly coveted by other teams, most notably the LA Kings who were rumoured to be offering a similar cap-circumvention contract. I agree that they surely expected him to play more years than he did. But the Kovy-to-Russia rumour had been around for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I believe they would have, because Kovalchuk was highly coveted by other teams, most notably the LA Kings who were rumoured to be offering a similar cap-circumvention contract.I agree that they surely expected him to play more years than he did. But the Kovy-to-Russia rumour had been around for years.Remember he was only 27 when he walked and had only played 3 years on a very front loaded 15 year deal. They gave up Bergfors, Oduya, Cormier and a first rounder which Atlanta subsequently traded to Chicago in a package deal that brought them Dustin Byfuglien. That's a lot to give up for three years of one guy. No bud, Lamoreillo did NOT expect to lose Kovalchuck at 27. I'd accept mid-30's or late 30's but not at 27. And the Devils still lost a third round pick, paid a few million, and had to pick last in a first round as punishment. How have the Flyers been punished exactly? They have to keep Pronger on the LTIR. Oh yeah, that really hurts. Lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 That's a lot to give up for three years of one guy. No bud, Lamoreillo did NOT expect to lose Kovalchuck at 27. I'd accept mid-30's or late 30's but not at 27. And the Devils still lost a third round pick, paid a few million, and had to pick last in a first round as punishment. What I said was that I don't believe the Devils didn't at least have the understanding that there was a possibility Kovy bolted for the KHL at some point before the deal expired. Surely they didn't expect it to be in a few years. I don't see how our positions are different. How have the Flyers been punished exactly? They have to keep Pronger on the LTIR. Oh yeah, that really hurts. Lol. The Flyers have been punished by having their player and employee work for the NHL instead and draw a salary - which means they can no longer rely on his expertise in scouting and other things he was doing for the team - while still having the bear the burden of a dead contract. Yes, they can use LTIR, but it is still a burden, especially in the offseason. The NHL should either void the contract - and hey, I'm sure they'd gladly give up a 3rd rounder and a few million bucks - or should not have hired Pronger in the first place. My issue is with Pronger working for the NHL. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 I get your point and the Flyers do not exactly inspire confidence when it comes to developing a winger I would not be opposed to it but I really would want him on a deal that made sense for the Flyers. I would not overpay otherwise you are left with some very tough decisions about "core" players moving forward.Oh, I hear you on the contract and cap issues. And agree.I expect the GM to figure that one out, because quite frankly, I have no idea how to make that work. Maybe someone can Tonya Harding Mr Umberger? LTIR has worked in the past... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 @brelicAgreed on many points. I have a problem with Pronger working there. Major conflict of interest. And I'd be all for the Flyers suffering the same penalty as the Devils to be out of it. It's more damage than this blown up sense that the LTIR somehow hurts the Flyers. In fact I bet Hextall would hate this idea. The off season cap means damn near nothing. You're better off as is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Maybe someone can Tonya Harding Mr Umberger? LOL!!!! Great stuff right there Doom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 @brelicAgreed on many points. I have a problem with Pronger working there. Major conflict of interest. And I'd be all for the Flyers suffering the same penalty as the Devils to be out of it. It's more damage than this blown up sense that the LTIR somehow hurts the Flyers. In fact I bet Hextall would hate this idea. The off season cap means damn near nothing. You're better off as is. Yeah, maybe the offseason cap doesn't hurt as much as I think it does. I'm not a capologist, and the Flyers don't seem to have one either. But it gets thrown around in the media on a regular basis come summertime as a limiting factor for the Flyers. It just means we can't go over the cap as much as another team... but really, with good management, you shouldn't be going over the cap very much anyway. That just takes away your leverage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Pronger on LTIR keeps the Flyers from overspending in the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 And if the ruble rebounds he'll likely just walk out on his NHL contract again. Can the Ruble rebound for VLC and Umberger or MacDonald in the mean time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Still don't understand how the Devils got out of this one. Does anyone have an explanation of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Pronger on LTIR keeps the Flyers from overspending in the off season. So you're saying it's a feature? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 How have the Flyers been punished exactly? They have to keep Pronger on the LTIR. Oh yeah, that really hurts. Lol. They can't fill out the lineup until after the season starts and anything they do to fill out the lineup after the season starts has to be something that can expire by the end of the year. That's how. Of course now, with the benefit of hindsight and two or three more absolutely horrific Holmgren deals on the books, the Pronger situation feels almost cute in comparison. Holmgren got burned with the Pronger deal because Pronger's career was cut short due to a catastrophic injury few saw coming. Why Homer then saw fit to shoot himself in the foot two or three more times is utterly beyond all of us. We're still scratching our heads and keeping our torches and pitchforks by the door in case we get a chance to go mob rule on that Mad Scientist. Nah, Scientist isn't appropriate. That stupid stupid mad man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Why Homer then saw fit to shoot himself in the foot two or three more times is utterly beyond all of us. As his final act, he unleashed his inner Dick Cheney and shot Hextall in the face with the MacDud signing. "Har har, good luck with that one, Ron!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polaris922 Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 They can't fill out the lineup until after the season starts and anything they do to fill out the lineup after the season starts has to be something that can expire by the end of the year. That's how.That's not true though. They put Pronger on the LTIR prior to the cap counting on Day 1 of the season. I think we figured this out before in that the only thing it does is require an exact salary figure for replacement players to be equal to his cap hit, and at his cap number that's not hard at all. Capgeek actually used his exact contract as their example at one time and showed how irrelevant it was. Would be different if they had to be at the cap at midnight the last day if training camp but they don't.As for the Devils, they didnt get away with it. It cost them a bump to 30th pick in the first round, a third round pick, and I think $3 million in cash. The true damage in my eyes was losing a 27 year old goal scoring talent after handing him big money in early bonuses after trading a first, and three players, all of whom are still in the NHL I believe, and having nothing to show for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted March 25, 2015 Share Posted March 25, 2015 Would be different if they had to be at the cap at midnight the last day if training camp but they don't.As for the Devils, they didnt get away with it. It cost them a bump to 30th pick in the first round, a third round pick, and I think $3 million in cash. The true damage in my eyes was losing a 27 year old goal scoring talent after handing him big money in early bonuses after trading a first, and three players, all of whom are still in the NHL I believe, and having nothing to show for it. As I understand it they have two choices for how and when they declare Pronger to be on the LTIR. They can do it before the season starts or they can do it after the seasons starts. I Honestly forget what restrictions doing it before the seasons starts puts on things, but part of it is what you mentioned, it has to do with "replacement players". I also don't think they can just have him assumed to be perpetually on LTIR so that they can't just resign another defenseman for 4.25 million for the next few years and call him a "replacement for pronger." it doesn't work out that easily. I believe putting him on on day 1 gives them the freedom to utilize the money a bit more freely to meet their needs, but then you're left grabbing Coca-Colas and Schultzes from the scrap heap. regarding the Devils, That's not even close to what I'm talking about. That's just the price of doing business with a big name player. What I'm talking about is being on the hook for his contract for the next 10 years or however long it was. How do they not technically still own his rights now that he wants to return to the NHL. Doesn't seem right and seems way too easy for the Devils and for Kovy considering how much of a stickler the league is on other long term deals like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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