radoran Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Another point to the "how many team got worse than the Flyers that were ahead of them" line of thought is that the Flyers beat most of the "better" teams and lost to the "lesser" teams, and last year the Flyers played crappy. Now if the Flyers play solid this year, how many of those "lesser" teams will the beat?Will they still play and "win" the "better" teams this year under a more experienced Head Coach, who has a decade of winning system experience?(Grant it College level, but look at his protege of players he's coached into the NHL, they aint no bums...sizzlechest!)I don't disagree.But Hakstol chose his own players to a large extent before and not only has to deal with players someone else selected, they're not even the players the guy who hired him selected.There's a learning curve to be expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 @mojo1917 The Oilers haven't won in awhile, but their fans who've seen them win are a generation younger than the Flyer fans who've seen them win. Giroux has 61 points in 57 playoff games. He has experience. Voraceks played 22. Heres a list of Flyers without NHL playoff experience....Vandevelde, Bellemare Medvedev Gagner I'm going to say those guys playoff experience isn't going to make or break a successful Flyer playoff run. They may not even be on the team then. On the other hand... a quality pick in this draft... If Edmonton wins a cup down the road will it be because they played 4 or 5 playoff games this year, or because they have McDavid and Hall and Nurse and RNH and......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Giroux has 61 points in 57 playoff games. He has experience. Voraceks played 22. So you're saying two guys with experience is all you need? Which is it...we need more than two players to carry the team or the whole team needs to carry the team? I say the latter so more than two guys with playoff experience is needed. Especially when it all is on one line. I'm having a hard time following your logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 @OccamsRazor I listed ALL the Flyers without playoff experience...there are 4 (one being the guy who just came from Russia). So it's not like the Flyers as a team don't have any. And I'm not saying more doesn't help. I just think injecting more skill, helps more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 Vandevelde, Bellemare Medvedev Add Gagner to the list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 I just think injecting more skill, helps more. So, you'd rather they add a draft pick who might make an impact in a few years instead of getting to the playoffs this season? I'm not following your logic here, either. Who are they getting picking in the middle of the first round who will a few years from now inject the "skill" they need? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 @mojo1917 The Oilers haven't won in awhile, but their fans who've seen them win are a generation younger than the Flyer fans who've seen them win. Giroux has 61 points in 57 playoff games. He has experience. Voraceks played 22. Heres a list of Flyers without NHL playoff experience....Vandevelde, Bellemare Medvedev Gagner I'm going to say those guys playoff experience isn't going to make or break a successful Flyer playoff run. They may not even be on the team then. On the other hand... a quality pick in this draft... If Edmonton wins a cup down the road will it be because they played 4 or 5 playoff games this year, or because they have McDavid and Hall and Nurse and RNH and......?who is the winner in the that Oilers group ?... you know who had a **** ton of skill ? Alexi Yashin, Eric Lindros was a better prospect than McDavid and what did he win ? if your team loses all the damn time and no one on it knows how to win....what it takes to win, then skill only takes you so far...the infusion of skill especially on the blue line is coming for the Flyers bring those guys into a team that expects to win and has some guys that can model winning behaviors. there likely won't be an immediate difference maker at 9-10 in the draft. A guy at 18 or 19 is likely on the same developmental curve so for my money i'd rather win and pick 18 or 19 EDIT:Sidney Crosby who is head and shoulders the best player in the game has won one cup. He needed Bill Guerin and Dave Roberts around to help him lead, because those guys knew what was needed and how to raise their level of play during the high stakes portion of the season... i'm not saying those type guys won't be around for McDavid in a couple of years but there isn't anyone like that on that team now, and to this point that talented bunch has managed to only win the draft lottery. You observe the Leafs, the loser stink doesn't come off easily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 So, you'd rather they add a draft pick who might make an impact in a few years instead of getting to the playoffs this season? I'm not following your logic here, either. Who are they getting picking in the middle of the first round who will a few years from now inject the "skill" they need? I'd rather they won the cup. This thread is about reality. The reality I have for a team that's added Gagner and Medvedev to a team that picked 8th last year is that's not enough to make the playoffs, especially when you see that most of the teams above them in the standings either kept pace or better with their additions. And that includes whatever pluses and minuses a rookie coach brings in his first NHL season. So my reality is that we add another piece or two and continue building in that direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 So my reality is that we add another piece or two and continue building in that direction. And we're looking at the same reality. Have you been reading any of my posts? Yes, I know that at 9/10 in the East they "could" win the lottery and pick top 3. Again, though, staying in "reality" the "opportunity" to "win the lottery" is about as likely as them making the playoffs. I'm not saying they will make the playoffs - I've said more than once that I don't expect them to make the playoffs. But, again, if they're going to be in the middle, I'd rather be in the top of the middle than in the bottom of the middle. Because I don't believe that this roster even with two boat anchors is among the 10 worst in the league and I don't see much difference picking 14-16 vs.11-13. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 who is the winner in the that Oilers group ? McDavid? I'd take Hall on my team anyday. Nurse?... you know who had a **** ton of skill ? Alexi Yashin, So did JVR...don't miss him a bit. Eric Lindros was a better prospect than McDavid and what did he win ? Lindros came to Philly in a deal that sent 1/3 of the Flyers the other way. And two 1st round picks. Pretty hard to build a team around him that way. if your team loses all the damn time and no one on it knows how to win....what it takes to win, then skill only takes you so far... I agree...and if you know how to win but don't have enough skill, that only takes you so far. See Crosby.the infusion of skill especially on the blue line is coming for the Flyers bring those guys into a team that expects to win and has some guys that can model winning behaviors. there likely won't be an immediate difference maker at 9-10 in the draft. A guy at 18 or 19 is likely on the same developmental curve so for my money i'd rather win and pick 18 or 19 Ok, I'd rather win the cup. Or shock the hockey world and get one of those top 3 picks in this lottery. Neither is likely to happen. Reality tells me we miss the postseason again. EDIT:Sidney Crosby who is head and shoulders the best player in the game has won one cup. He needed Bill Guerin and Dave Roberts around to help him lead, because those guys knew what was needed and how to raise their level of play during the high stakes portion of the season... i'm not saying those type guys won't be around for McDavid in a couple of years but there isn't anyone like that on that team now, and to this point that talented bunch has managed to only win the draft lottery. You observe the Leafs, the loser stink doesn't come off easily. Crosby probably still wouldn't have a cup if Pittsburgh had to trade for him. They'd have had to gut the team, Philly-style. On the other hand, I also blame (and always have) Shero for his terrible drafting record that had Crosby or Malkin playing with not-so-great wingers and horrible 3rd and 4th lines most of their career. That seems to have changed there finally...we'll see.Edmonton doesn't have a goalie. Toronto has been a whole different animal when it comes to poorly managed franchises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 And we're looking at the same reality. Have you been reading any of my posts? Yes, I know that at 9/10 in the East they "could" win the lottery and pick top 3. Again, though, staying in "reality" the "opportunity" to "win the lottery" is about as likely as them making the playoffs. I'm not saying they will make the playoffs - I've said more than once that I don't expect them to make the playoffs. But, again, if they're going to be in the middle, I'd rather be in the top of the middle than in the bottom of the middle. Because I don't believe that this roster even with two boat anchors is among the 10 worst in the league and I don't see much difference picking 14-16 vs.11-13. So in other words, this disagreement is over, what, 3-5 points? You don't expect them to make the playoffs, but hope they do. I hope they draft someone who is a vital piece going forward. I don't think playing a handful of playoff games, or NOT making the playoffs, will have a huge affect psychologically on the team either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 22, 2015 Share Posted September 22, 2015 So in other words, this disagreement is over, what, 3-5 points? You don't expect them to make the playoffs, but hope they do. I hope they draft someone who is a vital piece going forward. I don't think playing a handful of playoff games, or NOT making the playoffs, will have a huge affect psychologically on the team either way. I hope they "draft a vital piece" too. I just don't find the two - drafting a good player and making the playoffs - to be mutually exclusive. Of course, for that matter, I don't see anything in the draft projections that indicates that a "vital" piece will be available when the Flyers are drafting anyway - barring "winning the lottery" and, quite frankly, if I'm the Flyers I'm not making decisions based on "winning the lottery". To be clear, I don't want them to go out and make deals (*cough* Adam Oates *cough*) and have a big push simply to make the playoffs, either. I want them to take what they have and work to earn their way in. I do believe that could have a good psychological effect on a team that has one playoff round in the past three years. And would be a good thing to then add that "vital piece". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LegionOfDoom Posted September 23, 2015 Author Share Posted September 23, 2015 It's early in the preseason, but our prospects are making strides and this might be our last year of questioning, next season looks to be stronger if we start funneling in our defensive prospects. Our reality this year is up in the air, but in reality it is what our players make it out to be, do they buy into Hakstols teachings and commit to the system on and off the ice? Improve yourself everyday, get better each time. The Flyers have something to Prove. All of them. Can Claude take the next step in leadership? Can Jake show he is being paid to play for his contract? Can Michael cement himself as a true first wing option? Will Sean show he has the next offensive level? Can Read show last year was an anomaly? Will Brayden play to the next consistent level to earn an extension? Will Wayne be a 30+ goal player? Will Vinny show he still has value at his age? Will RJ pull his value as the trade upgrade he was brought in to be? Will Sam show he is 1st round pick worthy? Can Pierre follow in Michael's footsteps? Can Chris and Ryan win themselves as valuable players to the team?And on D? They also have something to prove.I won't go into those questions now, but yes their questions are part of the equation of what the reality is for this year.It's always exciting to be in the top 5 or 10 in the upcoming draft, but man when the teams go into the playoffs and your on the outside looking in, that sure sucks as well. Watching Warriors of ours go far in the playoffs are fun, but being in the playoffs...you know...it's exciting, and that's what our players are playing for...a chance to hoist Lord Stanley.Let's just get to the playoffs this year...and then let's see what happens...anything can happen....2010 echos hello.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Bill Meltzer @billmeltzerFWDS; Raffl-Giroux-Voracek Umberger-Couturier-SimmondsGagner-Lecavalier-ReadCVV-White-Bellemare Xtras: C McDonald, Cousins.---these two will be sent down. Where is Brayden??? You tell me is he the guy on the outside looking in??? Looks like the Schenns are on their way out to me...reading the writing on the wall....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Where is Brayden??? He's getting his picture taken for the "won the trades" display at the Wells Fargo Center. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 He's getting his picture taken for the "won the trades" display at the Wells Fargo Center. Well why isn't Simmer Jake and Coots joining him too then???? Or is he going to be part of another winning the trade scenario? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Well why isn't Simmer Jake and Coots joining him too then???? They already got their pictures taken. Seriously, though, they're going to wheel VLC out as third line center and deal BSchenn because of it? #homercoaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 He's getting his picture taken for the "won the trades" display at the Wells Fargo Center. Hey we need to make it group photo then.......we must put Luke and Mcdud in there to to be fair.....and what about RJ no love for him???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 Seriously, though, they're going to wheel VLC out as third line center and deal BSchenn because of it? I know when you look at the lineup it's hard to to see the Schenn are all but actually traded...Brayden isn't even listed and Luke is skating as the 7-8th Dman with Manning....i mean who keeps a 3.5mill 8th Dman??????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 i mean who keeps a 3.5mill 8th Dman??????? We do. And we keep a $5M 7th d-man. Not even a hypothetical! We did last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 We do. And we keep a $5M 7th d-man. Not even a hypothetical! We did last year. Yeah can't argue that. Luke has only one more year left on his deal so that has to be attractive to someone other than the Flyers.........right? Mcdud's contract is why he was kept on the roster...if it wasn't for that he would have been moved i think for a bag of pucks. Here's to hoping he can be useful this year....Hak has his work cut out for him. Maybe him and Gudas will for a better bottom pair. Luke's biggest problem was getting out of position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 We do. And we keep a $5M 7th d-man. Not even a hypothetical! We did last year. I just made a similar statement in another post! Looking at the way things are unfolding are we really coming to the end of the Schenn(s) experiment? It certainly seems like there is no love by management/coaching staff for either player right now. The message is coming through loud and clear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 I just made a similar statement in another post! Looking at the way things are unfolding are we really coming to the end of the Schenn(s) experiment? It certainly seems like there is no love by management/coaching staff for either player right now. The message is coming through loud and clear... That might be what's happening. You know what? It would make more sense, IMO, to package MacDud with Brayden and keep Luke. That way, by the end of the year, we'll have rid ourselves of MacDud and Luke. Addition by subtraction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 It would make more sense, IMO, to package MacDud with Brayden and keep Luke. I would do this in a heartbeat if you could find a trade partner.........then trade Luke closer to the deadline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted September 24, 2015 Share Posted September 24, 2015 @brelic... make it happen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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