Game 78: Flyers at Hurricanes: 3/30/19 @ 1:30

[vis]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

Out of curiosity, why? I notice you mentioned contentious negotiations later in your post... is that the reason?

Shades of Justin Williams and Brayden Schenn to me.  He produces, but does not "play the right way" (whatever that means).  He should be in line for a nice payday given his stats, but his on ice play suggests he is not good in other areas (which I don't think is a question).  Not being arbitration eligible definitely helps, but I just really wonder if they see him as part of the team for the longer haul.  Would be a shame to see him go.  Love his feistiness.

[radoran]

25 minutes ago, vis said:

My comment was more about how I think the org is going to load up on vets, basically shutting them out of available roster spots on the big club.

 

The "good thing" is that there aren't a whole lot of those guys who hit the market these days - and we should be wary of those that do. *cough* Marleau *cough*

 

Hayes is an interesting thought as a 2/3C pending Patrick's development. Nyquist is serviceable. If I'm Buffalo I lock Skinner up with just about whatever he wants.

 

And if I'm Carolina, I want WIlliams to end his career as a Cane before his inevitable induction into the Flyers' Hall of Fame.

 

But if they want 20/50 guys, I think they have them in the pipeline and on the roster already.

 

I get what you're saying - that a 6/$42M deal for Eberle or Duchene is a possibility.

[vis]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

The "good thing" is that there aren't a whole lot of those guys who hit the market these days - and we should be wary of those that do. *cough* Marleau *cough*

 

Hayes is an interesting thought as a 2/3C pending Patrick's development. Nyquist is serviceable. If I'm Buffalo I lock Skinner up with just about whatever he wants.

 

And if I'm Carolina, I want WIlliams to end his career as a Cane before his inevitable induction into the Flyers' Hall of Fame.

 

But if they want 20/50 guys, I think they have them in the pipeline and on the roster already.

 

I get what you're saying - that a 6/$42M deal for Eberle or Duchene is a possibility.

All good points, but it's not just what they do in UFA that I worry about.  Rather, I am a little worried they are going to do something in the trade department.  There was a time I would have entertained a deal for Eberle, but no way.  Don't want any parts of him or Duchene for what it will likely cost.

 

To be clear, I don't think Fletcher is the main issue.  Dave Scott is the problem, and that problem is unlikely to go away any time soon.  

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

 

No, you don't. This is why I have a "+" after "60". Most of the time he is 60-70 points.

 

 

Made this point earlier.

 

 

I am being fair. It's true he's on pace for just under 70 points this season (69.97 over 82 at .85 ppg). But unless he actually gets six points in the last three games, he's not going to hit 70. And if he 0-fers he drops to .82 ppg, on pace for 67.

 

 

This one, too. Except, you're a tad high on your scale. Tarasenko is right around Jake's production at 66 points this season after three 70+ in a row and he's at $7M. For example.

 

 

I don't think it needs to be a forward. I think they have some nice forward pieces in house and there might be some available in trade. JLC was a throw-in to the Desjardins-Recchi trade and no one expected him to score 50 multiple times.

 

I'm not one that's on about his defence - or lack thereof. I'm more looking at a "core" that has achieved virtually nothing over seven years. Some believe they're "a coach away" from "being competitive" and that's a fair point with something to back it up.

 

I'm just not holding my breath. And I'm not holding onto players who haven't achieved as damn thing just because they've produced inconsistently on a bad team.

 

I am saying if they can land a serious vet D guy who's achieved something, I'm listening. I really don't see the point in not being at least open to the conversation.

 

Again, the same thing with JVR. I'm looking at assets with value that can land assets with value.

 

I'm not blowing it up for the sake of blowing it up. Yet.

 

Come out flat in October again - no matter who the coach is - and we're having a different conversation.

 

 

I've been saying it for six years - he's Kris Russell. He's not who they thought he was.

 

He's a run of the mill, adequate NHL blueliner.

 

I’m mobile now, so this will suck. 

 

-Tarasenko got that deal after his first 70+ point season (73pts) and has not created 80 points even once.   I’ll grant that he’s had a few shortened seasons, but he hasn’t lost many more games than Jake. 

 

I have no problem trading Jake or JVR for the right player. I have zero faith in Fletcher, Homer or Scott to adequately assess that right player.  I’m not so into Jake or JVR that I wouldn’t trade them, but I will step in if someone describes them as useless or bums or overpaid.  (Not saying you did)

 

These are talented key players on this team who are paid at the league norms for their levels of skill and production.  The player we want Jake to be makes 8 figures these days.  Unless his name is Couturier and he played for crappy coaches who started him in the D zone 64% of the time.  Remember when people here thought Hextall OVERpaid him?  Ha ha! 

 

Referring to the core... I don’t disagree.  I may in fact agree.

 

When Homer dismantled the Richards/Carter/Briere core he really didn’t take into account what he was doing to the leadership and identity of the team. 

 

They had had a nasty reputation off the ice, and everyone hated Carter on the ice (despite the multiple 35g seasons) and Briere was too old for the money.  But damn, they were a pretty good Core.  I look at that ‘07 ECFs team and that was all on guts and Briere.  The skill level that just wasn’t there was astounding, but I still think if they’d had a more fair shake and Coburn and Timmo had been healthy, they could have beaten those penguins.

 

But they drank too much... Or Pronger didn’t like them... or something.  

 

The problem with the G, Jake, Simmer, Coots, Schenn core is that they never had vets to take the torch from. They never had much of a d-core (though I liked Coburn, & Timmo was awesome, just over cooked) or a goalie either, but let’s not get off message. 

 

I still feel that if  Homer had brought back Jagr, and kept Bob & JVR, the last 7 years would have sucked a LOT less. Maybe he doesn’t need to buy out Briere white so soon either.  Who plays Defense?  They wouldn’t have missed Luke, that’s for sure.  

 

 Maybe they’re not good yet, but they’re better and it’s a better environment for the current core to come up in. 

 

No real need for VLC and Homer could still have bought out Bryz and the current Core would have had some leadership backstopping them as they cut their teeth (they’re old now, but Jake and Simmer were pretty young and Giroux was just coming into his own). As it was, they still needed to play Coots (at 18 I believe) and Schenn all year the year the Jagr year.  (okay, it was only half a year because of the strike, but you know what I mean). 

 

Remember Coots playing against Malkin killing off penalties at the end of games. At 18!  It was bonkers. 

 

They said Simmer was the heart and soul of this team.  Sadly,  That doesn’t say much for the guy.  

 

Right now, as far as I’m concerned Coots, TK, Provo & Hart are the heart and Soul of this team.  G is the captain, and still their most talented player, but he doesn’t seem to have that extra gear (like on “the shift”) when they need it   He had it as the end of last season, but they needed it at the end of this season and it wasn’t there.  

[King Knut]

33 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

I get what you're saying - that a 6/$42M deal for Eberle or Duchene is a possibility.

 

Please.  No.  

[King Knut]

30 minutes ago, vis said:

All good points, but it's not just what they do in UFA that I worry about.  Rather, I am a little worried they are going to do something in the trade department.  There was a time I would have entertained a deal for Eberle, but no way.  Don't want any parts of him or Duchene for what it will likely cost.

 

To be clear, I don't think Fletcher is the main issue.  Dave Scott is the problem, and that problem is unlikely to go away any time soon.  

 

I fear you are correct about Scott.  We can hope Homer learned his lesson and stays out of the day to day now for a reason, but Scott apparently has learned no such lessons.  If the Phillies do well, we’re in even worse shape because he won’t understand that they have no cap and just need to be profitable for themselves (not necessarily enough to cover the crappy teams too). 

 

I have issues with Fletcher too, but mostly His inability to tackle two or three things at once or think very far ahead.  He could change that perception, But I’m not putting a lot of faith in him. At most I’m just hoping he doesn’t screw it up too badly.  

 

Ultimately, the trades he made feel like making nothing moves to please Scott.  He traded Simmer and got a nice 4th liner. 

 

He traded 4th line scrap and got AHL talent. 

 

The one I'm still bugged by is Stolarz and Talbot. That... just feels dumb to me. 

 

 

 

 

[vis]

25 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I fear you are correct about Scott.

 

I have issues with Fletcher too. 

Could be a very dangerous combination.

 

I don't have as big of an issue with Fletcher as you, but I am not impressed thus far.  I suppose the best thing I can say is that they didn't make any panic moves for the sake of making a move when he came on board.

[radoran]

14 hours ago, King Knut said:

They never had much of a d-core (though I liked Coburn, & Timmo was awesome, just over cooked) or a goalie either, but let’s not get off message. 

 

One thing I'll always rue is picking Smith over Timonen for captain backinnaday. I thought it was a terrible move then and it hasn't aged well, either.

 

14 hours ago, King Knut said:

the Jagr year.  (okay, it was only half a year because of the strike, but you know what I mean). 

 

And that's another one - not reloading the "Jagr year" team and going after Parise/Suter.

 

Just think for a moment about "winning" that one and where the team would be now.

 

Six more seasons of Parise and Suter...

 

My issues with this organization are neatly arranged into volumes.

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, vis said:

Could be a very dangerous combination.

 

I don't have as big of an issue with Fletcher as you, but I am not impressed thus far.  I suppose the best thing I can say is that they didn't make any panic moves for the sake of making a move when he came on board.

 

You’re 100% spot on about the panic moves.  

 

I tend to be defensive if Hextall because the fact of the matter is, this team was likely just beginning its rebuild now without the efforts he took and some of the moves he made and at the end  of the day, he built a really strong team with a lot of talent that ALSO Halle s to have a good amount of cap room right when they need it most.  

 

His blindspot when it came to the staff quite fairly cost him his job (though I still think it’s obvious that was never about Hakstol and Most likely about Hextall using some choice hockey words toward Scott). 

 

But he was the the architect of the D squad and Goalies (3 more quite good ones still coming) let alone TK, Lindblom, Patrick, Frost, Farabee and a whole slew of other sharp looking forwards.  Hextall’s plan was only just coming together now and he said as much would happen when he took the job 5 years ago.  People complain about Lehtera and Weise And Weal and I couldn’t care less because I knew they were all always just warm bodies taking up space until this moment right now. 

 

Now that’s all Water under the bridge, but it’s just to say, having someone else come in to put on the finishing touches on so well executed a construction makes me nervous.  

 

I give Fletcher a hard time because those first few moves were obviously just for show.  I don’t mind them at all.  That’s actually savvy of him to make low consequence moves that would be popular with the fan base. 

 

What annoys me is all this talk of “thank god he got rid of so and so” as if that particular player was the problem.  Meanwhile the Flyers has been on an 8 game win streak before the trade.  It’s just not paying attention and I think it’s lazy, especially because almost everyone he traded was not coming back next year anyway.  

 

So so for those moves I was more annoyed with the press and dan reaction than Fletcher, who actually made politically savvy moves of utterly no material consequence in trading Weise, Weal,  Lehtera, etc. 

 

I got grumpy with him after Talbot and the trade deadline. 

 

Stolarz for Talbot was relatively pointless and may have cost the Flyers their momentum and injured Hart (which cost more of their momentum). 

 

Then There was the deadline in which he apparently ignored deals for Elliott and Raffl and somehow didn’t earmarks Mark Stone as priority number one for the off season because Stone thought it was a good idea to sign long term in Vegas. Why acquire Talbot at all if  you’re just going to ignore asks for Elliott? 

 

Hartman for Simmer isn’t a bad deal for Fletcher, but it was a BS deal for the fans who were literally promised that Hextall was fired and Fletcher brought in to make big deals by the deadline.  Hextall wasn’t willing to pull the trigger on a Simmer was the subtext if that press conference and wasnt interested in making a big move to improve the team by the deadline.  Implying that Homer was making this move because the Flyers WOULD be making a big deal or two.  They didn’t. And They missed a few opportunities. Maybe Fletcher made the best deal that was offered, but it betrays to all of us, that we were lied to about the reasoning and intentions for the future of this team. 

 

My criticism of him so far is as much about Holmgren and Scott as anything.  

 

We’ll see what he comes up with, but from what I’ve seen so far and from what I can tel from his time in MN, I don’t expect anything creative and I’m very concerned about locking up too old players for too long and not being able to keep our prospects coming through the pipeline. 

 

 

 

[King Knut]

30 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

And that's another one - not reloading the "Jagr year" team and going after Parise/Suter.

 

Just think for a moment about "winning" that one and where the team would be now.

 

Six more seasons of Parise and Suter...

 

My issues with this organization are neatly arranged into volumes.

 

No worries!  Homer just hires the guy who beat him to Parise and Suter, so next time, we’ll be sure to get that terrible deal!

 

i’m joking of course.  At least I desperately hope so. 

[OccamsRazor]

49 minutes ago, radoran said:

Just think for a moment about "winning" that one and where the team would be now.

 

Just imagine two moves that might have yielded different results not trading for Eminger and drafting Carlson, who is in the running for the Norris this year and keeping a Vezina winner in Bob....wonder what may have been.

 

 

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Just imagine two moves that might have yielded different results not trading for Eminger who is in the running for the Norris this year and keeping a Vezina winner in Bob....wonder what may have been.

 

Sometimes the best moves are the moves you don't make.

 

Also, too, that it's often possible to "win the trades" and lose the war.

[brelic]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

Sometimes the best moves are the moves you don't make.

 

Also, too, that it's often possible to "win the trades" and lose the war.

 

And to pick up on that theme, there are probably a lot of those "non moves" under Hextall and Fletch that make us better in the long run.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Sometimes the best moves are the moves you don't make.

 

Also, too, that it's often possible to "win the trades" and lose the war.

 

Yeah just realized I left John Carlson's name out of the point I was trying to make.

 

The phone rang at work and my bosses distracted me from what's really important.

 

Hockey talk.

 

Huh they want me to actually work today?

[OccamsRazor]

10 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

And to pick up on that theme, there are probably a lot of those "non moves" under Hextall and Fletch that make us better in the long run.

 

 

 

Yeah like drafting RW Oliver Bjorkstrand instead of Goulbourne comes to mind, who plays on the Blue Jackets 3rd line and has 21 goals this year.

 

Flyers could use a 23 year old 3rd line RW right?

 

But hey at least we have Goulbourne making guys pay in the AHL...right...or I hope he is making them pay...other wise why did we draft him again?

 

 

 

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Yeah just realized I left John Carlson's name out of the point I was trying to make.

 

Well, they did then turn Eminger into Carle and who can forget the contributions of Jacob Deserres and Simon Bertilsson?

 

So, well, um... yeah, I got nothing...

[brelic]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yeah like drafting RW Oliver Bjorkstrand instead of Gourlbourne comes to mind, who plays on the Blue Jackets 3rd line and has 21 goals this year.

 

But hey at least we have Goulbourne making guys pay in the AHL...right...or I hope he is making them pay...other wise why did we draft him again?

 

 

Lol not exactly what I had in mind.

 

I think the days of drafting Goulbourne-types are over.

[flyercanuck]

19 hours ago, vis said:

Think just about anyone other than Giroux, Couturier and Hart and probably Provorov can be had for the right price on this team.  I really think some of the young guys will be traded.  Do folks think, with the apparent desire to win now, that management will roll into next season with a defense that includes Provorov, Sanheim, Ghost, Hagg and Myers?  While maybe some of those names might mean something more in the future, I highly doubt this regime is going to wait long to find out.  As much as I love TK, I think he stands a good chance at getting dealt.  LIndblom as well.  I'm not faulting Fletcher for that philosophy.  I am faulting Dave Scott for that strategy.

 

I don't know what to make of Voracek.  I would probably trade him, but you can't let his production go without replacing it.  if you don't have a plan for replacing it, you may as well keep him.  However, as we saw with Simmonds, I'd prefer not to hang on to an asset too long.  Not saying Voracek's production will slip like Simmonds' did.  But, if you have an opportunity to make a decent trade, it may be worthwhile to take it.  "Bird in hand," and all that...

 

My predictions (not what I want to happen): 

• Gordon relieved and Quenneville signed ASAP.  No way they have anyone else higher on their candidate list.  I would be SHOCKED if Quenneville is not given a mint to coach here.  If he's not the coach, it's not because the Flyers didn't want him or were outbid.  It's because he didn't want to come.  That would speak volumes.

 

 I hope it's him. I really don't see anything else available that looks worth pursuing. Other than Sheldon keefe...and that isn't happening with Homer and Scott and Fletcher.

 

19 hours ago, vis said:

• Ghost traded and probably another young dman traded.  Either Duncan Keith or Brent Seabrooke will be a Flyer.

 

 The thought of getting stuck with Keith/Seabrook and contract , especially at the cost of a young defenceman you just know ends up a stud on Chicago, makes me want to puke. It's also exactly what i expect out of the present management.

 

19 hours ago, vis said:

• Contentious negotiations with Konecny.  Possibly traded.

 

 More vomit.

 

19 hours ago, vis said:

• Frost and Farabee will have no shot at a roster spot next year.

 

 I'm not expecting either to make the big club straight out of junior/college.

 

19 hours ago, vis said:

• Lots of wheeling and dealing at the draft.  Flyers walk away with fewer picks than they came with.  Debatable whether they will leave a better team.

 

 I don't expect to ever get another Carter Hart as long as Homer is around. For one cause he doesn't care about goalies, and for two (ok, i should reverse the order) cause he hates 2nd round picks.

 

19 hours ago, vis said:

 

As you can see, I'm bracing myself for total chaos.

 

If Quenneville is hired, he should put the players on blast immediately about coming into camp ready to play.  No slow starts.

 

 

 Yes....and yes.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

Simon Bertilsson?

 

And he is still playing in the SHL.

[flyercanuck]

8 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

Lol not exactly what I had in mind.

 

I think the days of drafting Goulbourne-types are over.

 

Well they were...not so sure that they are. If that makes sense.

[brelic]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Well they were...not so sure that they are. If that makes sense.

 

Guess we'll find out one way or another in a few months. 

 

With Hextall, at least there was a plan. Even if you didn't agree with it, you typically knew where he would focus. 

 

With Fletch, there is an absence of a plan. Granted, he's brand new and was hired amidst a crisis. This is a really significant offseason for the franchise. 

 

 

[radoran]

14 minutes ago, brelic said:

hired amidst a crisis. in a moment of panic by two guys who also, too, don't have a plan

 

FIFY