J0e Th0rnton

8 minutes ago, yave1964 said:

Bourque as a deadline deal addition was an absolute failure, period, no discussion. to me a deadline deal that does not result in a cup that year cannot be considered one of the greatest ever. They won the following year, but that was the following year. does that mean that the Wings trading Coffey and Primeau for Shanahan in October deserves to be cosnidered a great deadline deal because they won that year? No. deadline deals have to result in a win that year for it to count. Bourque was an all time great, but not one of the all time great deadline deal winners.

  And gloss it over all you want, the year they won it he scored 4 goals and 10 points in 21 postseason games. That was a tired old man, the team won and would have won without him. Sakic was a superstar before the arrival of Bourque and was still one long after Raymond rode off into the sunset. I think your prejudice is showing.

Being able to convince Bourque to resign that one more year was contingent on getting him first. I get which direction you are coming from tho regarding not being able to call it a great "Deadline deal"

The idea that they would have won the cup with or without him is where you lose me. It is simply silly. That's like saying Lidstrom was completely inconsequential to the Wings 1997 and 2008 cup because he scored less. We both know Lidstrom' strong defensive play, shutting down top players, transition game and puck moving was crucial, regardless of whether he showed on the scoreboard or not. So say one, and you are agreeing Lidstrom was nothing and replaceable for 2 of his cups just because of his numbers.

 I watched every single game. Nothing tired about him.  Bourque played 29 minutes a night in the playoffs, in the toughest matchup's. He was one of the greatest defensive defensemen and puck moving transition game defensemen of all time. Playing on a team that strong enabled him to sit back and play that sort of game. Lidstrom was fortunate to have always been able to play that style because he was never the focus of attention on that super stacked team and had the guns in front of him to work with. In fact, Lidstrom was under appreciated for a long time because of that and only later did he get his due. In Boston, he had no choice but to activate offensively in a more gambling fashion when he was younger because Boston's best offense in an era of 130 point scorers were usually 70-80 point guys. By the time they got a 130 point guy in Oates, they lost all their depth and their best goal scorer. Boston's entire offense revolved around Bourque and his array of shots.

In Colorado, you got a glimpse of what Bourque could have done if Bruins management was not inept for so many years. Say what you will about Sakic. Those words came from his mouth not mine. It was one of the lowest scoring era's in recent memory and Sakic in the years around that was regularly scoring 80-90 points. The full year with Bourque, he cited Bourque's rock solid team boosting play and transition game with boosting him to his best season ever. Sakic's 118 point season was basically what would have been a 150 point season in the 80's and he owed much of it to Bourque.

Looking for Sakic's quote now as my Dad used to quote it all the time on the old boards. Only finding snippets from coaches, roenick, etc, but ill keep looking

Quote

"From Day 1, he made my job easier. It was like he brought a new energy into the locker room. And I knew he'd give me 30-plus minutes of quality defense each night. Finding a defenseman who can provide that is like finding gold."

"I came here for two reasons. I wanted to play for a team that had a chance to win a Stanley Cup. And I wanted to see how my game would measure up if I played for a better team. I learned that I could still play at that high level once I got here. Now all that's left is winning the Cup."

And the urgency is felt by every Avalanche player.

Offensive-minded before Bourque arrived, the Avalanche averaged 22 shots against per game with him in the lineup, compared with 29 per game in the pre-Bourque days.

"It was almost like adding 23 new players," defense partner Adam Foote says. "His poise, his confidence rubbed off on everybody. I think we all played a little like Ray after he arrived."

Others in the league noticed as well. "It's amazing how their confidence grew," Coyotes center Jeremy Roenick said at the end of last season. "Adam Foote grew into a rock playing alongside Ray, and the forwards clearly took more chances offensively knowing there's a Hall of Fame guy right behind them."

 

That and I know what I saw. Bourque on defense made that team as much better as Lidstrom on defense did for the wings. No question. Not even debatable. If Boston were as powerful as the stacked Wings and Aves team later were, Bourque likely has 5-6 cups instead of the one at the end.

Bourque is the greatest Dman of all time after Orr and that is a widely supported stance by a good percentage of the hockey community. Call it "prejudice" all you want.

8 hours ago, yave1964 said:

I would disagree vehemently on Bourque, I am not saying he was a passenger but he certainly did not drive the train. The Avalanche would have won the cup with or without him. He should be grateful to the Avalanche, not the other way around.

  The trade deadline deal that all others are matched against and come up short of course was the Isles trading Lewis and Harris to the Kings for Butch Goring who was the perfect fit as a 2C for a team that was full of talent but needed veteran leadership.

  Larry Murphy booed out of Toronto and landing in Detroit was the perfect final piece for the Wings semi-dynasty.

 And not at the deadline but close enough, Ron Francis to the Penguins was legend.

 

Wrong. The inclusion of Bourque enabled that team to play much more confidently up front and his breakout transition play drove the bus .

Sakic credits his best season ever with Bourque being back there making it all happen. Most of the team said the same before they won the cup. It was like having 24 better players

For the Sharks, Joe Pavelski.

Get in on this Sharks!!!!!!!!!!

Thornton shot it at Phaneuf during a dump in the other night too. Phaneuf looked mad, but when he saw Jumbo Joe waiting for a fight, he backed down wisely

You lost me at "half the team's wins came from teams who currently sit outside a playoff spot."

Ill also direct you to look at our PK numbers since Waiving Burish. I suspect they gave him a quarter of a season to show if he can contribute or not and he failed miserably. Nobody understood why they kept putting him on the PK. Least of all Shark fans.

Last 10 games sir

Klingberg baby.

Give him the time with the top guns and points will follow. Heck, they already have

Ill give 2 that stand out like a sore thumb. The loss of Stastny and the addition of Brad Stuart. Brad Stuart has an incredible negative value to a team, bringing down EVERY pairing he plays for and making the partners, forwards and goalies worse. One of the worst defensemen in the league. Justin Braun CARRIED him every game as a Shark and Stuart brought down everyone he played with. A 19 year old rookie Mueller and over the Hill Hannan are performing far better than Stuart ever did

Niemi sucks. I just watch all Sharks games and he is never the guy. Never the game stealer. Never do I see him as the reason we won a game. And I tried. I hoped. I wished.

A goalie needs to be able to steal a game occasionally. Niemi just never does. He makes the odd great save here and there, but then let's in an incredible softie moments later. He handles the puck like it is a live grenade and usually coughs it up to the wrong place and shooting high on him and forcing side to side movement just catches him off guard.

I like a veteran goalie who gets the vast majority of his teams starts. And also, a goalie gets credit for a win whether he plays well or not, so a really good team with a meh goalie, the meh goalie gets wins.

  Niemi is on my sleeper list, everyone seems down on him but he has a cup and plays for an outstanding regular season team and his backup, Stalock, who everyone is in love with is what, 27?

 Lundqvist for obvious reasons, winning team, 60 or so starts is my choice as a regular.

 And i totally disagree with Varly. Giguere moved on, no real backup, it is his team, sink or swim. 60-65 starts and 35 or so wins. Take him any day of the week and twice on sunday.

I'd avoid Niemi if you are hoping he plays a lot of games Yave. Granted, yes, as a Shark fan who has seen him play 40 playoff games and get zero shutouts, I am a bit hating on him.

But management wants youth to get a bigger role this season and the specifically mentioned Stalock would be playing more games this season, so Niemi will not get the same volume of games he did in past years. Stalock might not get the starter position, but he will definitely see a more even split, which will affect Niemi's numbers.

i feel the pens are stuck with letang..I can't see any GM taking him with his health history  unless its a team like florida that needs to be at the cap floor

Even with the new ability to retain Salary? If they retain 2 million per season, and Letang is available at 5.25?

Uh, the Oilers seem to be #1 on every players no trade list. I am not even kidding. A lot of players who go there want out within the year, and it is just a wreck of an organization.

Granted Letang's NTC only kicks in July 1st. But will they give him the boot only to pay nearly the same amount to Niskanen???? No offense to Niskanen, but Letang was nearly a PPG player in 2012 and 2013. Yes he had a hard 2013 season, capped with a stroke, and people wondered if he could return to form. Well, he did and was playing well.

That an Rutherford just said a few days ago that he is not trying to deal him.

The odds are way up there at 10 to 1, that Niskanen is going to hit the open market. Apparently, he is close with assistant Todd Reirden and claims it could factor into his decision to resign. Rutherford is letting the assistant coaches talk to other clubs and has not yet made decisions on keeping them, etc. GOOD GRIEF SAN JOSE. Hire him to work alongside Robinson for developping defensemen. The bloody man had a big hand in developping Letang and took an increased interest in Niskanen's development this year as well and look how well it turned out. Plus, Niskanen might sign in San Jose if you get him!!! We need a bloody left side defenseman!

You should post on the forums more sir

Sure slows down once some teams are eliminated

Lack of defensive depth killed us. Forwards had to go all the way back to get the puck moving and by then the kings had lined up on their blueline, forcing a dump/chase. Losing Vlasic killed us as he is the best defensively and best puck mover. Boyle is supposed to be a mover, but he was a nightmare. Braun was the only remaining good defender

That and Niemi was just a sieve.

Thornton and Marleau both have full no movement clauses on their old and new contracts and held off signing until both were sure they were both staying.

In truth, the entire team fell apart in the last 3 games, not just those two. Pavelski and Couture and burns were nowhere to be seen.

Howard to the Jets? Howard to anybody? With a cap hit of 5.3 million for several more years? until i saw it, I had no idea he was paid that much. Why? Who signed him to that contract?

As noted above, they already have a 4 million dollar goaltender signed for a few more years. Nothing short of swapping goaltenders will do in this situation.

If you want Kane, you will need to think of something else to send over.

Hey! The sharks are my territory!

This draft is not deep. I say keep the pick for the next year, which looks much better 

Stalock looked solid before the team implosion after the goal that should have been disallowed. It's on the team how they fell apart

Ill eat crow later if I am wrong Yave, but I think this is the right move.

Strangely, I am hoping for a big game from Braun

By the reports, Stalock is starting, and Vlasic is out.

Ugh.....Vlasic is irreplaceable.