elmatus

The sad part is a rebuild would likely mean wasting the best years of Couts, who is definitely our best player right now. Not saying it's not worth entertaining anyway. It just sucks in that way for sure. You didn't mention TK in that list. Would you move him?

Honestly, I don't see Frost involved in a trade like this anyway. For starters, Ekholm's value as a reasonably good top four dman is quite a bit more than an unproven mid-six potential playmaker. It wouldn't be enough, and I'm not sure I'd like what else would need to be sent their way to make up the difference. My honest guess is a trade for Ekholm would involve a forward who is already in the league, so we can probably limit the list to: Giroux (as if), Voracek (won't happen either), Couts (hahahaha), TK (highly unlikely), Hayes (nada), JVR (highly doubt it). None of those guys. I also doubt they'd ship Lindblom over, which essentially leaves Patrick, Farabee, and (maybe) Laughton. Would you folks be okay with either of those being sent over in a deal for Ekholm? I suppose it's possible they would take someone like Ghost + Frost, which may be another thing to consider. In fact, of all the options I've noted, that may be the one I'd be most comfortable entertaining.

I feel like NSH would want forwards coming back anyway, not so much other dmen. They may want something like Frost and change. Is that worth it? I dunno. Ekholm is a decent player, and we could use help on the back end. Frost is a nice mid-six piece though who should be in this league this year or next. I hate giving guys like that up, as so many prospects never really make much of an impact in the league at all, and he seems like he should be an NHLer very soon. So i dunno. I do like Ekholm. I'm just curious what the price tag would be. I also agree that I'd rather keep Sanheim over Ekholm. Do they want Gus? Take him. Take this bag of pucks too.

Yeah, I'm with @ruxpin here. I don't see how Ekholm is such a great boost to this team, and really wouldn't want to overpay to get a guy like him. Don't get me wrong, he's a good dman, but all of those options just seem like giving a lot away for very likely little gain. I feel like part of this is a question of trying to find the new Niskanen. Ekholm is not Niskanen.

Do we know if he actually got covid? He may have had to isolate just as a precaution due to someone linked to him getting it or showing symptoms related to it. Considering what covid tends to do to someone’s lungs, kudos to him if he’s on the mend so quickly and playing well.

Voracek doesn't have a NMC. Only Giroux and Hayes do.

I can see where you're coming from to some extent here. I do think the whole "best player in the world" comment was ridiculous then and remains ridiculous now. Did Lavy think putting that kind of pressure on G might make him take that vaunted next step? I don't know. I suppose it's possible. That said, regardless of his leadership ability, which obviously I can't speak to directly (none of us can), Giroux has been one of the most productive players in terms of scoring that we've ever had. It's not as if he's dropped the ball on that count. Now, would the fan base prefer a grinder over a scorer? Yeah, I think probably that's true. Many of the issues leveled at G seem to be a question of his playstyle rather than his ability. Flyers fandom (myself included) like players who are of a certain ilk. We grew up watching bruisers and players with a mean streak. It's a big reason why many of us are fans of the team in the first place. The current team doesn't play that way aside from very brief exceptions. Of course, that's really a league-wide phenomenon, not just a Flyers one, but it matters more to fans who idolize the Clarkes and Lindroses than it might the Fedorovs and Sakics. In other words, the notion that the league and game itself is shying away from some of its more brutish traditions is something particularly difficult for some of us to grasp. And I think the feeling of this "not being the game I remember" trickles to Giroux especially, because he is the captain of a team whose heroes are of a bygone era in a way that just isn't true of fans in most other franchises (the Bruins being a second possible exception, but they've been winning in this new era, whereas we have not...) All that being said, imo the only way Giroux may have harmed this franchise is frankly by being too productive. Take him away from the equation, and all the pts he's got, and this team would have hit the bottom pretty hard. That might have meant more top picks or something, which I guess could have theoretically worked out better by this point... that's an awful lot of gambling and theory, but it's the closest I can really come to the whole "is it Claude Giroux?" question.

What I’m not really sure i understand is what exactly folks think would have happened this past decade if someone else we’ve had on the roster had worn the C. It’s not as if sewing a letter on a jersey magically morphs a player into McJesus. Sure, it would be nice if we had our own version of that kind of player, and then this would never even be a debate. The fact is, we don’t... we haven’t since the 90s frankly. Would the team have been better these last ten years if Voracek had been capt? Couts? Provorov (for the last few years)? Who else? Scotty Hartnell? Shea Weber? i mean, what exactly is the magical option that wasn’t discovered? Would Raffl have taken the leap to Pastrnak if they sewed a C on his jersey? That letter could have been given to anyone else over the past decade, and absolutely zero would have changed. This team’s roster has just not been strong enough to contend for the entirety of Giroux’ tenure. Period. Is it one now? It doesn’t look like it. What do we need? That’s a great question. Blaming Giroux for the team’s shortcomings is little more than a short sighted excuse as far as I’m concerned. This isn’t singles tennis.

I would love if that were true, but it really isn't. Pittsburgh outplayed us, and we just got lucky. Buffalo (!) outplayed us, and we got lucky. The Isles outplayed us, and we got lucky. Our games against NJ were pretty evenly matched as I remember them, and I do think we've actually played reasonably well against Boston (despite all the losses against them). A more accurate statement would be that we have more wins than those other teams. We haven't been playing better than them; at least, we really haven't in the games we've had against them. Put another way, based on how we've played so far, I feel like we'd get bounced in a seven game series by pretty much anyone. That's just not a good feeling to have. Again, can they turn this around? Sure, i hope they do! And thankfully they've gotten filthy luck to start the season. As you pointed out, if they do eventually find a way to do more than just get lucky, they won't be too far behind or anything and fighting their way up. There is hope, but they really need to start actually winning of their own accord without relying on so much luck.

I'm not a big fan of jumping the ship normally, but the current standings are unfortunately very misleading with regards to the Flyers. As someone who has watched all but one game so far this season, I can say without doubt they have gotten absurdly lucky and should not have the record they have. They have been getting outplayed by a significant margin in virtually all games this year. Could they perk up and figure things out? Yeah for sure, and I definitely hope they do! As it stands, it's really only a matter of time before they drop like a rock down that list. They just won't be able to rely on luck for 50 whatever games -- even less so in the playoffs. Now, I don't think this is Giroux' fault any more than it's any other one player's fault on any team ever. That's just giving way too much credit to one guy in a team-based sport. I guess I shouldn't say ever... I'm sure there are plenty of examples where a team was completely derailed by a single player. But yeah, Giroux isn't that.

I missed the last game. Was this a thing last game? I feel like it's about time this line up was tried...

More importantly, it's one thing to develop enough to make the NHL (which is already very very hard), it's another one entirely to become a top six sniper in the NHL. Those guys may all get their shot, but it's entirely possible they never become top six fixtures. Generally speaking, I feel we could all use a nice shift in perspective on some of these guys. We overvalue so much, without taking into account exactly what we're asking of them. Becoming a top six guy in the best hockey league in the world is something only a fraction of players ever even sniff at. Put another way, the overwhelming majority of people who are drafted end up playing little to nothing in this league at all. To be a top six guy is to be part of an extremely small percentage. I'm not talking about you here. I'm just venting at large. In fact, from what I can tell you do tend to be more realistic than many others here a lot of the time. The sad reality of our current situation is we really don't have any sort of slam dunk top six shooter in the system right now. Sure, there's always a chance someone comes out of the woodwork to become that kind of guy, but that would be abnormal and largely unexpected of anyone currently on the farm. And more to your last point, by the time such a guy would be making the NHL at all, there's a very good chance Giroux won't be the top notch passer he currently is. Really the only way that's going to happen is if we trade to get such a guy, which is something we've talked about quite a number of times around here. Now TK is very good. Farabee may perk up still and contribute more than he has to date also. In terms of what we currently have available, they're probably our best hopes right now. Neither of those guys is the next Ovechkin though. If that's what we're hoping for, it's going to be a very long wait. The secondary effect of overvaluing players however is that it leads us to overlooking when certain picks do actually become better or even way better than what we might have expected of them. Giroux is example number one of this. TK may turn out to be another if he keeps getting better. We really shouldn't brush these guys aside because they're not McDavid-level, they were never supposed to be. They're already better than most people likely expected they would be. I do think that needs to be recognized also. It's not an either/or situation.

I think many of us have accepted he's not that same guy anymore. Don't get me wrong, he's still a solid player and will likely put up some ~80pts again this season. That's clearly nothing to scoff at. But no, he's not the elite caliber guy that's being discussed in this thread. I've mentioned this elsewhere, but Giroux is possibly the best surprise this franchise has ever drafted. That's not nothing, but he's not the kind of player at this point in his career that other teams are specifically forced to plan around. As far as where we might get that elusive elite kind of guy, it's pretty remarkably difficult to land those guys in a trade. That said, I'm still not convinced Laine and Torts can work together. That may remain a possibility in the near future. Is Laine enough? I don't know, but it certainly wouldn't hurt. The one thing I do think you're off about is Provorov though. He is absolutely a star dman, and he's still young. He would be the top dog on tons of teams right now. We're very lucky he's wearing our colours.

As others have noted, The Bolts are loaded with superstars. From front to back. And while LA may not have had that caliber — Doughty was arguably the best dman in the league at that time, but let’s put that aside for a second — that’s one team. I’d rather not try to catch lightning in a bottle. Vegas may have a shot at that kind of win by committee deal, but it’s hardly a common feature. It’s way more common for winning teams to have superstar players carrying the weight.

Yep.

Hold up now. If anyone's tossing out chump change it's certainly not me. Laine is absolutely an elite player in this league, but to suggest PLD is "not even close" is pretty ridiculous. Goals aren't everything mate. Is Laine the better sniper? Yep, for sure. He's also a 50 foot player who does just about one thing well, and even then he desperately needs a setup guy to shine. PLD is not a sniper. So certainly, if what you're valuing is that one thing, Laine is your guy. PLD is a gritty and skilled 1C who plays both sides very well. His faceoffs need work, but he's much more Couts than TK. Laine is the opposite. He's a poorer version of Ovechkin or a better version of Kessel. He does that one thing very well, but don't ask him to backcheck, go into corners, or create a ton of forecheck pressure -- that's just not his game. It is absolutely PLD's game though. Again, both are very good, and both are very different. In terms of trade value though, I still think this is a pretty solid trade on both sides, and really only time will tell which of those two teams is able to benefit most from the player they just got. And in terms of where Torts fits into this, he does well with offensive players who are also willing to play defense. Again, this is where Laine is quite literally abysmal. PLD on the other hand is very much that kind of guy. Was ego the thing that got between PLD and Torts? Well, here's some more news, Laine is hardly a passive guy who thinks he's just one of the bunch. Virtually every statement he's ever made amounts to bold claims on how he's the next Gr8. Now, are we talking the Flyers here? If so, I would personally love to have Laine and probably more than Dubois at this point. That's because we need a sniper more than a two-way center. So again, different players, but the trade is a good one imo for both teams. It'll be a question of whatever the future holds in both cases. Also as I mentioned earlier, it seems notable to me how this leaves WPG with not much for elite shooting and CLS with a weak middle. So in both cases, they're gaining some to lose some. I will say this, Scheifele is also a great centerpiece. So in that sense, it could be said WPG lost the deal in that they lost a solid shooting partner for their top center. But really, Laine's rep was pretty sour in WPG, so that may never have materialized anyway.

Yep, 100%. Don't get me wrong, Laine in the right hands would be an absolute menace. Torts just doesn't have anywhere close to that level of coaching acumen. I mean, I hope I'm wrong for Laine's sake here, but my guess is they'll clash before the end of the season, and something will give on one side or the other. Laine needs a coach who prefers an offensive style of play, and where he can get the spotlight he craves. Not a guy who publicly chastises players who don't block 20 shots a game.

Wow, that is ridiculous. Clearly there was no real effort to land a deal here on CLS' part. That's the kind of offer you make when you have no interest in making an actual deal unless it's heavily one sided. That CLS GM seems like a piece of work...

I wouldn't say that at all. I actually kind of think this is a good deal all around. Dubois is the more established of the bunch, so it makes sense he would command more than Laine does. They're different players of course, and ideally a team would have both, but that's not how trades like this work. I guess the one tricky bit here is that WPG now has two viable top centers and no elite shooter, while CLS has has an elite sniper and no real top center to feed him pucks anymore. Also, if Torts had a problem is Dubois, he's going to absolutely hate Laine. Everything is projection at this point, but imo WPG will benefit more than CLS in the immediate time. If CLS can get a less ridiculous coach and a solid top C to feed Laine some pucks, that could change of course. I could absolutely see Laine traded again in the not too distant future, if only because Torts is toxic, and I'm not sure he'll be very interested in that for very long.

I've mentioned already how I like Dubois, and I do. The challenge would definitely be the price tag. What does it take to land a tough top three draft pick who plays tough and has solid skill both ways? I'm not sure exactly, but I have to imagine it'll be steep. I'd be curious though. He'd fit in here like a glove given the way he plays the game. I know, let's give them JVR. He had a reasonably good last game. Seize the day!

Honestly I think they have alright depth. I think what they're lacking is true top talent that can give opponents fits. I mean, I'll give Couts a pass, he's pretty stellar. Provo also is definitely a top D. That's all fine and well, but the truth is our truly elite scorers are all players who probably should be supporting players to at least 1-2 elite talents, and we don't have that. It's also very noticeable how shotty our defense is outside of Provo... Some of that may be youth for folks like Sanheim, but having Braun and Hagg doesn't help anything, and I'm not feeling Gustaffsson so far. But anyway, as others have mentioned, we need 1-2 guys opposing teams are forced to make specific plans to handle, and we just don't have anyone like that. We have above average players, good supporting players, but we seem to lack true top talent.

That is interesting. I think it would be cool to see him given a shot. Assuming he's healthy and gtg, i'd rather see him than Ghost by a considerable margin. That's without mentioning Braun...

Definitely we could use some more rational assessments, particularly when it comes to young players on the team. We need to be comfortable with the idea that prospects are often overhyped, and having a more measured look at new guys coming in is highly likely to be closer to reality than some sort of saviour story. The best current example of this is Frost, but it's been true of so many others before him. On the flip side, I do think we sometimes come down too hard on the vets. Giroux is the most obvious and best example of this. If we look at his total body of work in the NHL, and if we compare it to what the majority of guys like him achieve in their careers, Giroux has proven to be a massive success story. When his name was called and promptly forgotten, that wasn't because Bobby had a ton of things on his mind, it was because G was really not expected to be an elite superstar. All people involved in that likely figured they'd be getting a decent but undersized guy who hopefully will be a decent mid six guy for whatever number of years. Instead, we got one of the highest producing players in franchise history. Now, is he a top ten player in the league? Probably not, and certainly not at this point in his career. But the fun thing about top lists like that is they're almost entirely populated by players everyone knew would be great way before draft day. They're not populated by guys who were drafted in the 20s and whose names were forgotten at the announcement. Giroux was a phenominal pick, and we really should cut him some slack. I mean, definitely still trade him cause his value will never be higher, but let's give him a bit of space as very likely the biggest surprise we've ever drafted. Also, let's maybe not expect that same journey out of Frost...

I'm excited to see what this team does without Couts. Don't get me wrong, I love Couts. He's almost certainly the most complete player we have on the roster right now. What I like about not having him for a short amount of time is that it forces other players to pick up the pace. So we get to see what Hayes does in a top line role for instance, or if Patrick can take the step forward we're all desperately waiting to see from him. I'm curious about Frost also. Having him play with TK and Lindblom seems a fantastic idea to me. Both of those guys have solid finishing skills, which is probably the biggest knock on Frost himself (aside from the age and experience bit of course). That could stand to work well. But yeah, for me though, my eyes are on Patrick above pretty much any other Flyer this year. He needs to start showing something that proves he was good enough to be taken 2nd overall, rather than just another mid pick first rounder, which is basically all we've gotten from him so far. For the record, I do think he's capable of something more (or maybe that's just me choosing to be naive). Hopefully we get to see that from him now. I will say that part of me would like to see Patrick with TK, but maybe we'll get that at a later date.

I feel like Hayes and Patrick would get the nod at 1C before him though. They should frankly. Patrick has more to prove than anyone on this team. Give him top flight talent to work with and see if he can finally live up to his vaunted potential. The other option of course would be moving Giroux back to center. I really hope they don't... but that's what happened last season.