Kronwall hit on Voracek

[terp]

LOL, that was a good one!

That is an absurd statement. So just so you know, hockey players are taught to look at the chest when hitting (since unlike arms, heads and legs, it doesn't move). What's Kronwall supposed to do, look at Voracek's feet to see what kind of skates he's wearing or calculate his lace count? It's absurd. He looks at his chest and planted his shoulder right in the middle of it. Voracek, because he was looking down for the puck (bad idea generally), put his chin right on his chest. How is that Kronwall's fault?

Condescension noted. I'll keep your pointer in mind during my games this weekend. The only absurdity I detect is Rule 48, which should be revised to say "you can't target an opponent''s head, unless he isn't looking, in which case it might be OK, but only if we say so".

[xganarchy]

C'mon guys, how are you going to be okay with this ruling when the Flyers are always shafted for the same things?? I agree, this was a "legal" hit by previous standards. The league has ALREADY shown it's the checkers responsibility to take the other players well being into account (which i do not agree with). Other players have already been suspended for very similar situations. Yes, Voracek dropped his head. In years past, we wouldn't be having this conversation. But personally I can't just nod and say "yup, that sure was a purty hit" when Rinaldo gets suspended for a much more minor hit the last time these two very teams met.

So, to reiterate, I think the hit was clean (under the old NHL), but if you're suspending other players under the guise of "protecting vulnerable players", then it has to apply for ALL teams/players.

[Podein25]

Glad to help @terp

Oh, and keep your head up. And your stick on the ice.

[JackStraw]

How do you explain Rinaldo hitting a guy in the chest and getting suspended for 2 games, while Kronwall hits guys in the head and doesn't even get reviewed?

Rinaldo clearly left his feet in making the hit. Kronwall didn't. There's no real gray area there.

[Phillygrump]

So, to reiterate, I think the hit was clean (under the old NHL), but if you're suspending other players under the guise of "protecting vulnerable players", then it has to apply for ALL teams/players.

Exactly.

[terp]

@aziz

Consistency is vital. I think that's the most important takeaway, that and the fact that despite swapping Soupy for Shanny, there is still no consistency.

[Phillygrump]

Rinaldo clearly left his feet in making the hit. Kronwall didn't. There's no real gray area there.

Rinaldo hit a guy in the chest and Kronwall targeted the head. No gray area there either.

[AJgoal]

@aziz - Exactly. Players won't protect themselves if they don't have to. And I hate the calls the way they've become, but if you're going to call them, you have to call them all the time. Because the hitters won't learn not to make that hit if they're not penalized. At the same time, the hittees are learning that the hitter can't make that hit. So when a hitter and a hittee meet who have learned the opposite lesson, someone's career will end.

And as for the explanation, how can the head be the primary point of contact, yet it still be a "full body on body hit?"

[Phillygrump]

How bout the Kronwall hit on Kesler vs. the Rinaldo hit?

There's an obvious double standard.

[Phillygrump]

@aziz - Exactly. Players won't protect themselves if they don't have to. And I hate the calls the way they've become, but if you're going to call them, you have to call them all the time. Because the hitters won't learn not to make that hit if they're not penalized. At the same time, the hittees are learning that the hitter can't make that hit. So when a hitter and a hittee meet who have learned the opposite lesson, someone's career will end. And as for the explanation, how can the head be the primary point of contact, yet it still be a "full body on body hit?"

This is exactly what I've been saying. The lack of consistency is the most dangerous part of this whole thing.

[radoran]

The photo posted above shows clearly why the hit is a "clean hit"

Voracek's leading with his head. There's no way that a 6'0" defender can make contact with his 6'2" frame without hitting the part that is leading - the head.

Kronwall has two choices - take the body (which is behind the head) or give up a 2-on-1 to a player with speed coming across the neutral zone.

The "hockey play" on that is to take the body ten times out of ten.

Does Kronwall accentuate the hit? Yes. Does he lull Voracek into thinking that he's given up the blue line? Yes.

Are those things coaches look for in a player? Absolutely.

If you think the hit was "dirty" and "not allowed" under a "vague" rule - what would you have done if you were Kronwall? What would you like Grossmann to do in the same situation if Zetterberg is about to break up the ice?

[Podein25]

@radoran - nailed it.

That's my final word on this. I hope Jake is ok. Glad that he is alive

[JackStraw]

Rinaldo hit a guy in the chest and Kronwall targeted the head. No gray area there either.

How do you know that Kronwall "targeted" the head? When you prepare to hit a guy who is skating towards you, with the puck, and he puts his head down, why is that "targeting" the head? The rules clearly state that not all contact to the head is illegal. They are allowing for clean hits where the guy getting hit puts himself in a vulnerable position, at the last second. If Voracek keeps his head up, he doesn't get hit in the head. If the league wants to make all contact to the head a punishable offense, then it will have to just go ahead and outlaw all contact.

[Phillygrump]

They are allowing for clean hits where the guy getting hit puts himself in a vulnerable position, at the last second.

Voracek didn't put himself in a dangerous position "at the last second" He was vulnerable and Kronwall made contact to his head first. That is EXACTLY what the NHL says its trying to eliminate. Hits to the head on defenseless players. Kronwall targeted the head, hit the head, followed through with his arm trying to "blow up" Voracek. He didn't accidentally hit Voracek in the head. Come on.

[JackStraw]

That's not the way I saw it.

[Phillygrump]

Look, you guys can defend this hit all you like and you're entitled to your opinion, but under the new NHL and their standards for "protecting players" (yeah right) that hit is no longer legal. Because Kronwall is Shanahan's boy he will be allowed to continue doing it and players will continue to get hurt. There is a double standard. Kronwall has had worse hits and got nothing as well. He's going to either end someone's career or someone is going to hunt him and end his. Either way, maybe then the NHL will be consistent instead of managing discipline with the good old boy network.

I'm losing love for this sport. Its a real disappointment watching it go like this.

[aziz]

Voracek's leading with his head. There's no way that a 6'0" defender can make contact with his 6'2" frame without hitting the part that is leading - the head.

I can't tell you how many times I've said exactly the same thing when I disagreed with a suspension. the response has always been, "doesn't matter, you can't hit players in the head." the idea has been that if the only available contact involved contact to the head, then the hitter couldn't make contact.

I just wish the logic you put forward above was how the league navigated this issue from the start. I far prefer the game called to that standard. it just isn't the one that had been used to this point.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Legal or not. Score close doesn't matter. Somebody should have returned the favor to kronwell or to one of their star players. I was disgusted there was nothing done

[radoran]

Voracek didn't put himself in a dangerous position "at the last second" He was vulnerable and Kronwall made contact to his head first. That is EXACTLY what the NHL says its trying to eliminate. Hits to the head on defenseless players. Kronwall targeted the head, hit the head, followed through with his arm trying to "blow up" Voracek. He didn't accidentally hit Voracek in the head. Come on.

In delivering a check to the body one is taught to target the crest on the uniform.

Can you explain to me how Kronwall is supposed to target the crest on Voracek's uniform and avoid the head at the same time?

The rule is actually quite clear:

48.1 Illegal Check to the Head – A hit resulting in contact with an opponent's head where the head is targeted and the principal point of contact is not permitted. However, in determining whether such a hit should have been permitted, the circumstances of the hit, including whether the opponent put himself in a vulnerable position immediately prior to or simultaneously with the hit or the head contact on an otherwise legal body check was avoidable, can be considered.

I am asking how Kronwall is supposed to deliver an otherwise legal body check without hitting the head in that circumstance.

[xganarchy]

Legal or not. Score close doesn't matter. Somebody should have returned the favor to kronwell or to one of their star players. I was disgusted there was nothing done

I agree, I felt almost "disappointed" after the game, even with the win. I was hoping someone on the Wings would get laid out. Revenge for that hit was needed. With the stupid instigator rule our hands are tied if we're not willing to give up multiple powerplays. How about some of those B.S. penalties called on the Flyers right after the hit though? We ended up shorthanded anyway, might as well have run Kronwall.

[mkscrewy]

Legal or not. Score close doesn't matter. Somebody should have returned the favor to kronwell or to one of their star players. I was disgusted there was nothing done

You should have heard the Wings announcers' hand wringing every time we gave Kronwall a chop or an extra shot after that hit. It was pathetic.

[xganarchy]

In delivering a check to the body one is taught to target the crest on the uniform.

Can you explain to me how Kronwall is supposed to target the crest on Voracek's uniform and avoid the head at the same time?

The rule is actually quite clear:

I am asking how Kronwall is supposed to deliver an otherwise legal body check without hitting the head in that circumstance.

I think Kronwall COULD have let up a bit and still prevented Voracek from getting by him. Not that difficult. I've always been on the side of the old rules, guys should play with their heads up, etc. But is our team supposed to abide by these "new" rules of letting up only to be hammered when OUR guy is the one with his head down?

[radoran]

You should have heard the Wings announcers' hand wringing every time we gave Kronwall a chop or an extra shot after that hit. It was pathetic.

The pathetic part is that Kronwall wouldn't be whining and complaining and likely doesn't really want them bleating like sheep on his behalf.

He knows what it is - "hockey."

[radoran]

I think Kronwall COULD have let up a bit and still prevented Voracek from getting by him. Not that difficult. I've always been on the side of the old rules, guys should play with their heads up, etc. But is our team supposed to abide by these "new" rules of letting up only to be hammered when OUR guy is the one with his head down?

I think the NHL's decision making process is a joke. I said in chat last night that Rinaldo would have been executed and Giroux suspended as a penalty to the Flyers if Rinaldo had made that same hit.

I do think "Kronwall as a Flyer" would get different discipline than "Kronwall as a Wing"

That doesn't mean I want that hit taken out of that game.

"Could" Kronwall have "let up" on that hit? Probably. Do you train your defensemen to "let up" on hits?

Because I don't know of any NHL coaches that do.

[Podein25]

bleating like sheep

Maybe where you're from the sheep "bleat," but not mine. Bleed maybe, but not bleat.

Or maybe I just haven't taught them how to bleat yet....