Kronwall hit on Voracek

[terp]

I know but do you really think this one was ** that ** obvious? If so, then my point is N/A to you.

I think so. The players saw Kronwell, who has a reputation for dubious hits, and their teammate unable to rise after taking a head shot. They aren't going to wait to see the replay.

I agree that it shouldn't be that every legal hard check has to be followed by scrums and fights but don't think it applies to this instance.

[926]

I am a huge wings fan, love players like Kronwall and Pronger, Scott Stevens, Neidermayer, Konstantinov.

You forgot Claude Lemieux in your love fest.

[terp]

You forgot Claude Lemieux in your love fest.

Lemieux was a real "competitor". Just ask Chris Draper.

I think the comparison of Kronwall to Stevens is a good one. He always hit to injure, sometimes within the rules, sometimes not, and always got away with it. Fittingly, Stevens too retired because of lingering concussion symptoms.

[926]

@terp - for sure, and the backward precision of his hits reminds me of Kasparitis. And I'm sure last night's victory reminds Wings fans of Talbot.

[yave1964]

Big difference between Pronger and Lemieux. Pronger with the Blues was a thorn in our side, hard hitting, give no quarter brutal on us in the playoffs I swear he scored 10 goals a year and it always seemed like he scored five of them against us. Then with Edmonton he carried the Oilers past us in a huge first round upset. Then 2007 the ducks, his destroying Homer on the side wall, I hated playing him, you knew he was gonna be one of the top two or three players on the ice and he was one of the few who gave Stevie Y no quarter, he hit him as much as anyone and never backed down. But I loved his game, always secretly wished he was in a wings uniform and I am crushed that this ultimate warrior is felled by a concussion, in some ways I feel worse about it than Crosbys. I went from hating him, to grudging respect to admiring him to watching him teach your flyers how to win and dang near take out the blackhawks, truthfully I rooted for Philly because of Pronger and my wifes favorite underdog Brian 'dont call me Bobby' Boucher that post season. I wish nothing but the best for Pronger and his family.

As far as Lemieux, if he was on the side of the road on fire, I doubt I would pee on him to help him out. Big difference between a turtlin flopper crybaby and a good solid take no quarter hockey player. I respect what Lemieux did as a player winning cups with three organizations but he was cheap. Voracek said the hit was clean and blamed himself. Jagr said it was clean and said if you take that type of hit out of hockey it turns into basketball. Hope Voracek is okay, hope he learns a lesson and wish you guys good luck, you will probably get the Pens in the first round, be nice to see Jagr and Talbot score about seven against them.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

The players saw Kronwell, who has a reputation for dubious hits, and their teammate unable to rise after taking a head shot.

Kronwall has the reputation of hitting players who are in vulnerable positions. There's a new hit every week or two from him (see all the youtube clips in this thread). You don't see other players with the same hit over and over and over again. Kronwall has gotten very good at "legally" head hunting.

[JackStraw]

Maybe where you're from the sheep "bleat," but not mine. Bleed maybe, but not bleat.

REPORTED!

[JackStraw]

“I think it was clean,” he said. “I had my head down…..I saw him standing on the blue line and I was kind of naive and thought he was going to back up. It was a tough hit to take, but I think it was a clean hit from my side. It was my bad, and I think those hits should stay in the game.”

- Jakub Voracek

http://www.philly.co...s-doubtful.html

Seriously, end of story.

Edited March 8, 2012 by JackStraw

[Phillygrump]

@926

I said before that I think Kronwall even lures these forwards into dipping their heads by backing off and when they become vulnerable he launches himself into them and. like you said, disguises his hits well. I think he is the dirtiest kind of player. If the guy played for Florida he'd have been suspended 4 times by now and he'd be playing AHL hockey.

I've spent too much energy and anger writing about this and now that the whiskey is out I'm going to stop.

[terp]

“I think it was clean,” he said. “I had my head down…..I saw him standing on the blue line and I was kind of naive and thought he was going to back up. It was a tough hit to take, but I think it was a clean hit from my side. It was my bad, and I think those hits should stay in the game.”

- Jakub Voracek

http://www.philly.co...s-doubtful.html

Seriously, end of story.

Sure. I'm sure none of the Flyers have any ill will toward Kronwall. None of them will have anything more to say to him and they won't go out of their way to drill him next time the two teams play. End of story, not.

[JackStraw]

Well, the Flyers are a different story.

[terp]

Well, the Flyers are a different story.

I don't think they are lying through their teeth but you know they don't like it and they hate Kronwall. Should be a barn burner next time they play.

[JackStraw]

I don't think they are lying through their teeth but you know they don't like it and they hate Kronwall. Should be a barn burner next time they play.

I'm sure they don't like it, but they're pros and I doubt they hate Kronwall. Maybe they hate that he's not on their team. I know I do.

[Phillygrump]

Haha. Sure. Kronwall on the Flyers would be like if Rinaldo had a hatchet on the end of his stick. He'd be arrested and thrown in shackles outside the Wells Fargo Center.

No thanks.

[terp]

I'm sure they don't like it, but they're pros and I doubt they hate Kronwall. Maybe they hate that he's not on their team. I know I do.

OK, maybe they don't hate him but they are going to act like they hate him next time they play the Wings.

Also, be careful of what you wish for. Homer is likely to sign him when he's 36.

Edited March 8, 2012 by terp

[JackStraw]

Also, be careful of what you wish for. Homer is likely to sign him when he's 36

Sad but quite possibly true. Hopefully the next time the Flyers play the Wings they play like they hate the whole team. In a nice way of course.

[SpikeDDS]

It also appears that Kronwall lunged and left his feet a little bit so that his shoulder would make contact with the head. Voracek should not have been skating with his head down in that position but it should have been a penalty and should earn a short suspension. Maybe 2 games if there is any justic at all. If Voracek were Crosby it would have been a penalty, a match penalty, and a lengthy suspension.

No. Watch the slo-mo. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the technique. The announcers on one of the clips actually NOTE Kronwall's vertical body position--that he didn't lunge with his shoulder. The shoulder hits first, because the head is down. Otherwise it would have been body-to-body (the Flyers logo, actually). Technically speaking, the ONLY thing wrong with the hit is that the head is the primary point of contact, which I admit is sufficient reason for this hit to be reviewed by the league.

I hold a different point of view on this the you do, for sure. If you're skating forward with the puck and your head is down, and someone checks you from DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF YOU i.e. not a blind side hit (see hit on Savard), without charging i.e. leaving your feet prior to the check (see Ovechkin's hit on Michalek), without lunging at your with their shoulder TARGETING the head (ala the Rinaldo hit on Ericcson), without bringing the elbows up (Cooke on McDonough), without boarding being involved (numerous examples), if he hits you and your head happens to be the first point of contact, you are significantly responsible for putting yourself in that vulnerable position that Rule 48.1 says should be taken into consideration when evaluating the hit to the head.

We can argue about this until we are blue in the face, but we're gonna have to agree to disagree. What we BOTH will agree upon is that the league is remiss in NOT reviewing this hit and explaining WHY they consider the player putting himself in a vulnerable position on this hit as significant as compared with others where it should also be considered. This is a PERFECT example of a hit that can help define the rule.

If they did review the hit and gave Kronwall a game, I wouldn't like it, I wouldn't agree, but I could accept the call. I could very easily accept a judgment of a legal hit also, as Voracek IMHO was GROSSLY negligent for keeping his head down as long as he did. It was careless and stupid, and when you play carelessly, there are consequences. Voracek HIMSELF admits to his own irresponsibility and takes blame for the hit.

In either case, the league should use this opportunity FOR THE GOOD OF THE GAME, to render judgment and then explain their answer, whatever it is to help make the rulings more understandable as far as balancing the spirit and the letter of the law, because by the letter of the law in Rule 48.1, Philly's got a beef. However, it is noteworthy that the Flyers organization is NOT making much of a big deal about the lack of a ruling on the hit. Nonetheless, the league is remiss for not clarifying how that rule will be enforced using this as a case study.

[SpikeDDS]

Shanahan has been suspending guys all season for hits like that so I don't see him getting mired in "did Voracek's have his head down" all of a sudden.

Please provide a video example with your own assessment of a hit "like that," meaning as clean as that one, but only with the head as the first point of contact. Show me ONE.

[Phillygrump]

[Phillygrump]

[Phillygrump]

Both defenseless players.

[jackhole]

Here's the thing, and the reason why this particular play/injuries will continue to happen. The winger picking the puck off the board HAS TO visually check in with the puck. I don't care how good a stick handler you are, you have to gather that puck first. Its a fraction of a second, sometimes more.

You could see with jake perhaps the puck wouldn't come due to snow build up or whatever, took him longer. The winger has to get that puck, or turn it over at the blue line "I don't know any coaches teaching that". You can argue the legality of the hit, it really doesn't matter. Its a dangerous overzealous play. Does he legally have to let up, many say no. Its unsportsman like, simple matter of respect. Take the player out of the play, not the game, he'll get the message "Oh, I got to watch out in that situation. I might argue its closer to a 'charging' penalty, but when there is a wake full of injured players due to a habitual 'within technical legality' move, it needs to be addressed.

[SpikeDDS]

I can't even believe you are trying to equate this with Kronner's hit. In this hit, the head is the ONLY point of contact, and the hitter actually contorts his body to ensure that his shoulder makes contact with the head. This is similar (although not as bad) as the Savard hit.

If this is the best you can do, further discussion will be fruitless. If you can't see the OBVIOUS differences between this hit and Kronner's, you're blind.

[doom88]

@aziz

Nice collection of vids. Kind of makes me angrier, but it's good to know I'm not crazy.

[SpikeDDS]

This one is closer. But look at the STARK differences. In this hit, the shoulder is the ONLY part of the body that contacts the other player, and the PPOC is the head, so much so that the victim actually rotates in the air before falling. This is admittedly a better comparison than your previous attempt (which was sad, BTW). But unlike Kronner's hit, this is not a body-to-body hit. This is upper body-to-head. His hip doesn't even contact the victims body at all. It's a "clip" if you will.

Look, in contrast to what parts of Kronwall's body are used in his hits. He uses his whole body. He's not "clipping" the head area. He's hitting the whole player, including the head. His body hits Voracek's body SQUARELY!

Let me say it a different way to make sure I'm properly communicating my point. Look at both of the hits and imagine that the victim's head isn't there. In your example, the other player will hardly be hit, because the head IS the primary target. In Kronwall's hit, without the head in the way, body would hit body SQUARELY. Kronner still would have DESTROYED Voracek.

I still can't believe you equate these two hits. You're making my argument for me.