Around The League - Ex Flyers and Non Flyers News & Comments

[GrittyForever]

I don't think we have a thread for this sort of thing so I'm starting one. Just a reason to talk hockey even when there's nothing Flyers to talk about. Seems fitting to start with this:

 

 

[Podein25]

39 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I don't think we have a thread for this sort of thing so I'm starting one. Just a reason to talk hockey even when there's nothing Flyers to talk about. Seems fitting to start with this:

 

 

 

REPORTED!

[hmc687]

Hakstol in Seattle really makes me wonder about his time here with Philly.  Was it Hakstol that refused to do certain things?  Or was it Hextall forcing Hakstol's hand?  I'll be the first to confess I don't watch Seattle play at all other than the boxscore, but they've really put something solid together there.  And with Berniers and Wright they have a decent-good future.

 

Hextall allegedly ignored all scouts/executives (per Clarke) and chose Patrick over Makar or Heiskanen, etc.  And we know Hextall is horrific as a GM based on his time here and in Pittsburgh...so its entirely plausible that Ron forced his hand during Dave Hakstol's tenure here.

 

This entire post is pure speculation and I'm glad for Hakstol to find such success in Seattle.  That franchise showing early indications of grooming and developing a prospect the right way which is good news for Wright.

 

Anyhow, here's to hoping Frost becomes a bona-fide 2C and Flyers still somehow finish worst in the league this year XD

[ruxpin]

32 minutes ago, hmc687 said:

Hakstol in Seattle really makes me wonder about his time here with Philly.  Was it Hakstol that refused to do certain things?  Or was it Hextall forcing Hakstol's hand?  I'll be the first to confess I don't watch Seattle play at all other than the boxscore, but they've really put something solid together there.  And with Berniers and Wright they have a decent-good future.

 

Hextall allegedly ignored all scouts/executives (per Clarke) and chose Patrick over Makar or Heiskanen, etc.  And we know Hextall is horrific as a GM based on his time here and in Pittsburgh...so its entirely plausible that Ron forced his hand during Dave Hakstol's tenure here.

 

This entire post is pure speculation and I'm glad for Hakstol to find such success in Seattle.  That franchise showing early indications of grooming and developing a prospect the right way which is good news for Wright.

 

Anyhow, here's to hoping Frost becomes a bona-fide 2C and Flyers still somehow finish worst in the league this year XD

 

I was among those who thought Hakstol was terrible here and wanted him run out of town.

 

@hf101 was, I think, the lone voice in the wilderness that objected to the prevailing "wisdom" and argued in support of Hakstol.   Probably the only one here unsurprised by his success so far out in Seattle.

 

I'm glad for him.  He always seemed like a good guy who was in over his head.   Turns out I was only right about the good guy part.

 

 

Conversely, I always supported Hextall here and wasn't happy when they canned him.  I really thought it was 100% palace politics.   I still think it was palace politics, but the passage of time and hindsight hasn't shown a favorable light on his job here.   And coupled with his time in Pittsburgh, while arguably not a fantastic hand, it's hard to argue with the "horrific as a GM" statement.

[hmc687]

41 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I was among those who thought Hakstol was terrible here and wanted him run out of town.

 

@hf101 was, I think, the lone voice in the wilderness that objected to the prevailing "wisdom" and argued in support of Hakstol.   Probably the only one here unsurprised by his success so far out in Seattle.

 

I'm glad for him.  He always seemed like a good guy who was in over his head.   Turns out I was only right about the good guy part.

 

 

Conversely, I always supported Hextall here and wasn't happy when they canned him.  I really thought it was 100% palace politics.   I still think it was palace politics, but the passage of time and hindsight hasn't shown a favorable light on his job here.   And coupled with his time in Pittsburgh, while arguably not a fantastic hand, it's hard to argue with the "horrific as a GM" statement.

 

I never liked Hexy.  He got rid of fan favorites in Hartnell and Schenn and replaced them w literal plugs.  He also wanted to end the "broad street bullies" identity which has left the team without identity or culture or anything.   And that's still a problem for this team to this day, years or even a decade later.  And Hexy also signed awful contracts like Voracek, Weise, JVR, ...in addition to not going after quality UFAs.

 

When Hextall wouldn't fire Hakstol I started suspecting Ron was behind the nonsense (partially or fully we'll never know).

Edited July 19, 2023 by hmc687

[ruxpin]

40 minutes ago, hmc687 said:

 

I never liked Hexy.  He got rid of fan favorites in Hartnell and Schenn and replaced them w literal plugs.  He also wanted to end the "broad street bullies" identity which has left the team without identity or culture or anything.   And that's still a problem for this team to this day, years or even a decade later.  And Hexy also signed awful contracts like Voracek, Weise, JVR, ...in addition to not going after quality UFAs.

 

When Hextall wouldn't fire Hakstol I started suspecting Ron was behind the nonsense (partially or fully we'll never know).

I didn't really have a problem with the moves you mention. I liked a Hartnell and was sad to see him go, but he was downhill and it was a cap move. Probably to sign Voracek to a "market contact," (lol) so it's not all good. Voracek wasn't quite as annoying until later (I hated him by the end, so you may have just been ahead of me), but still a disaster contract.

 

I didn't like Schenn and wasn't upset to see him go. But I didn't hate him, either. My favorite moment was him and Crosby.  It was a brilliant trade IF we didn't piss away the resulting picks.  It resulted in Frost and Farabee.   The problem with this was a gross miscalculation in the Nolan Patrick draft.  Had they drafted Makar instead, they don't create the center glut they thought they had and probably don't make that trade.

 

Schenn has been a much better player in St. Louis than he was in Philly.  It's hard to prove the negative, but I wonder if he has the same career arc if he'd stayed in Philly.  Let's just say I'm doubtful.

 

I've always maintained that JVR was directed from above Hextall. It just seemed out of his norm at the time and had the smell of Holmgren interfering to fix his own perceived mistake. (His trading JVR was never the problem; just the piss poor return).  I'm less likely to hang my hat on the theory as I used to be, but not entirely convinced it's bunk.

 

My biggest problem with Hextall is the knowledge of how bad many of the draft picks turned out. A little bit too much of the self perceived smartest guy in the room syndrome, especially at the draft.  And even if I'm only partially right about JVR, it's still his name on it, so no passes.

 

 

[hmc687]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I didn't really have a problem with the moves you mention. I liked a Hartnell and was sad to see him go, but he was downhill and it was a cap move. Probably to sign Voracek to a "market contact," (lol) so it's not all good. Voracek wasn't quite as annoying until later (I hated him by the end, so you may have just been ahead of me), but still a disaster contract.

 

I didn't like Schenn and wasn't upset to see him go. But I didn't hate him, either. My favorite moment was him and Crosby.  It was a brilliant trade IF we didn't piss away the resulting picks.  It resulted in Frost and Farabee.   The problem with this was a gross miscalculation in the Nolan Patrick draft.  Had they drafted Makar instead, they don't create the center glut they thought they had and probably don't make that trade.

 

Schenn has been a much better player in St. Louis than he was in Philly.  It's hard to prove the negative, but I wonder if he has the same career arc if he'd stayed in Philly.  Let's just say I'm doubtful.

 

I've always maintained that JVR was directed from above Hextall. It just seemed out of his norm at the time and had the smell of Holmgren interfering to fix his own perceived mistake. (His trading JVR was never the problem; just the piss poor return).  I'm less likely to hang my hat on the theory as I used to be, but not entirely convinced it's bunk.

 

My biggest problem with Hextall is the knowledge of how bad many of the draft picks turned out. A little bit too much of the self perceived smartest guy in the room syndrome, especially at the draft.  And even if I'm only partially right about JVR, it's still his name on it, so no passes.

 

 

 

All that plus his destruction of the team identity/culture...something 40 years in the making.  Its damaged the fan base and most fans (myself included) have either checked out or are in limbo.  I dont know what style of hockey this team plays because they rotate coaches and roster so often.  Those energy guys (Schenn, Hartnell, Simmonds, etc.) might not be the best on-ice product but they are lockerroom guys and they add something to the fanbase.  Voracek never did that.  JVR never did that.  Weise never did that.  RJ Umberger never did that.  Jori Lehtera never did that.  And none of Provorov, Sanheim, or Hagg accomplished that.  Konency wouldve fit in w the old Flyers grind and wear n' tear regime because he's a gutsy player whose also talented, but he's also the most likely player to be traded out today...

 

Was optimistic when Hexy arrived and that quickly soured once he started dumping fan favorites for RJ Umberger or Lehtera.  The info about him ruining #2 OA selection only sealed the deal for me.

[GrittyForever]

10 hours ago, hmc687 said:

Hakstol in Seattle really makes me wonder about his time here with Philly.  Was it Hakstol that refused to do certain things?  Or was it Hextall forcing Hakstol's hand?  I'll be the first to confess I don't watch Seattle play at all other than the boxscore, but they've really put something solid together there.  And with Berniers and Wright they have a decent-good future.

Hakstol is a better coach now then he was. They learn from their mistakes too. But, maybe the Flyers team he coached just wasn't as good as people thought it was? 

[SCFlyguy]

15 hours ago, hmc687 said:

Hextall allegedly ignored all scouts/executives (per Clarke) and chose Patrick over Makar or Heiskanen, etc. 

You'll forgive me if I don't believe the word of Clarke, after the fact, that he would have chosen a defenseman over the big Western Canadian Center.

14 hours ago, hmc687 said:

He also wanted to end the "broad street bullies" identity which has left the team without identity or culture or anything.   And that's still a problem for this team to this day, years or even a decade later. 

Hextall was right to want to end it.  That "identity" is what has been holding back the team for the last 20 years.  The idea that the Flyers reload instead of rebuild.  Vengeance Now.  Just absolute marketing with nothing behind it.  When the Tampa Bay Lightning have more Cups in their short history than you do, maybe it's time to reexamine that identity and get a new one.

[hf101]

17 hours ago, ruxpin said:

f101 was, I think, the lone voice in the wilderness that objected to the prevailing "wisdom" and argued in support of Hakstol.   Probably the only one here unsurprised by his success so far out in Seattle.

 

I'm glad Hakstol has been given the 2nd chance in Seattle.  It's quite possible that his role in helping draft the team played a part in gaining player types that best fit his coaching strategy, which is more similar to selecting HH players for his North Dakota collegiate team.  In Philly he had a team in place to join and make work.  It's all possible that it was the combination of Hextall and players that didn't mesh with his game plan.  And as said above, good coaches learn from their mistakes too.  

[radoran]

1 hour ago, hf101 said:

In Philly he had a team in place to join and make work. 

 

A team that was simply never good enough, built around a duo who weren't good enough, and who failed under several different coaches, some of whom have gone on to success elsewhere.

 

IT WAS THE PLAYERS

 

The players were not good enough. The organization* tragically overvalued them and spent a decade of mediocre hockey trying to prove that they were right after all.

 

They were not right.

[radoran]

15 hours ago, hmc687 said:

All that plus his destruction of the team identity/culture...something 40 years in the making.

 

Hextall? The guy they fired five years ago?

 

The entire identity of the team was allegedly destroyed under the longest serving captain in team history and the GM they fired five years ago was the problem?

 

A) I don't entirely buy the marketing slogan that the team culture was "destroyed"

 

B) Fletcher did far more damage to the team than Hextall ever did, and Hextall made some really bad choices (ahem, Voracek).

 

[radoran]

4 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

You'll forgive me if I don't believe the word of Clarke, after the fact, that he would have chosen a defenseman over the big Western Canadian Center.

 

A defenseman committed to an American college and intended to play there.

 

This was a team looking to get a 2C to fill out their "definitely a playoff team" roster.

 

There's less than zero chance Clarke makes that Makar pick.

[hmc687]

4 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

You'll forgive me if I don't believe the word of Clarke, after the fact, that he would have chosen a defenseman over the big Western Canadian Center.

Hextall was right to want to end it.  That "identity" is what has been holding back the team for the last 20 years.  The idea that the Flyers reload instead of rebuild.  Vengeance Now.  Just absolute marketing with nothing behind it.  When the Tampa Bay Lightning have more Cups in their short history than you do, maybe it's time to reexamine that identity and get a new one.

 

One team wins the Cup every year and 31 other teams dont.  Odds are most teams wont win the cup which is fine because sports are entertainment.  The goal is to entertain and winning can be entertaining...so, too, can an entertaining style of play.  The Flyers used to be a fun team to watch.  The Flyers Penguins playoff series of 2012 was legitimately one of the best playoff series I can recall in the past decade.  And that Flyers team was far from a Cup contender.  Since that point in time they've gotten away from broad street bullies and not only been awful but been awful to watch.

 

A team can lose in style or just lose and since 97% (31 out of 32 teams) will lose I'd at least like the team to make it fun.  

[SCFlyguy]

 

39 minutes ago, hmc687 said:

The Flyers Penguins playoff series of 2012 was legitimately one of the best playoff series I can recall in the past decade. 

It was more than a decade ago now and for the Flyers' there hasn't been much to compare it to.  It was exciting not because the hockey was good, but because the goal tending (on both sides) was terrible.  Next you'll be talking about "the shift".  Yawn.

 

43 minutes ago, hmc687 said:

Since that point in time they've gotten away from broad street bullies and not only been awful but been awful to watch.

Sorry, bread and circuses don't do it for me.

[hmc687]

On 7/20/2023 at 2:01 PM, SCFlyguy said:

 

It was more than a decade ago now and for the Flyers' there hasn't been much to compare it to.  It was exciting not because the hockey was good, but because the goal tending (on both sides) was terrible.  Next you'll be talking about "the shift".  Yawn.

 

Sorry, bread and circuses don't do it for me.

 

That 2012 series was the most entertaining series of Flyer hockey since 2000.  Only other remarkable series was 2010 Bruins comeback and that was a completely different type of entertainment.

[thegx.ca]

Pretty boring off season...especially for Flames fans it's downright depressing...

[GrittyForever]

Bergeron officially retires. Bruins will begin their fall now. 

 

https://www.nhl.com/bruins/news/a-statement-from-patrice-bergeron/c-345429764

 

[radoran]

On 7/25/2023 at 2:14 PM, GrittyForever said:

Bergeron officially retires. Bruins will begin their fall now. 

 

https://www.nhl.com/bruins/news/a-statement-from-patrice-bergeron/c-345429764

 

 

The average age of their forward corps is 29. Defense is 28.

 

Pastrnak is 27. McAvoy is 25.

 

They have one guy signed for $11.5M (Pesto) and one at $9.5m (McA). Lindholm is the contract and player we wish Sanheim was. They don't have anyone else over $5.25M (Coyle).

 

All in all da Broons look set up pretty well and have a projected $31M cap space in 24-25 (pending Swayman).

 

Moreover the team has the up and down the lineup identity and team mentality that is embodied in the guy we'd all be thrilled if Scott Laughton was, Brad Marchand, and the aforementioned Coyle with Pastrnak and McAvoy doing a good job taking it to the next generation.

 

If the Flyers are where they are in 3-4 years I think we'd be saying we're ready to add and seriously compete.

 

What am I missing?

[GrittyForever]

48 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

The average age of their forward corps is 29. Defense is 28.

 

Pastrnak is 27. McAvoy is 25.

 

They have one guy signed for $11.5M (Pesto) and one at $9.5m (McA). Lindholm is the contract and player we wish Sanheim was. They don't have anyone else over $5.25M (Coyle).

 

All in all da Broons look set up pretty well and have a projected $31M cap space in 24-25 (pending Swayman).

 

Moreover the team has the up and down the lineup identity and team mentality that is embodied in the guy we'd all be thrilled if Scott Laughton was, Brad Marchand, and the aforementioned Coyle with Pastrnak and McAvoy doing a good job taking it to the next generation.

 

If the Flyers are where they are in 3-4 years I think we'd be saying we're ready to add and seriously compete.

 

What am I missing?

They have no 1C. They have no real 2C (Zacha is a maybe only). DeBrusk is going to want a payday if he stays and Marchand is well past it and near retirement himself. Two fake hips remember. So just who is going to score goals for them besides Pasternak???

 

I agree they have a decent D (although it fell apart under Florida's pressure so maybe over rated) and good goaltending, but the forward group and the prospect pool is nothing but fringe players and 3rd/4th liners aside from the aforementioned. I see a fall unless they perform free agency miracles next year. 

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I see a fall unless they perform free agency miracles next year. 

 

They're not going to be the well-oiled machine of last year, but I don't see them necessarily bottoming out.

 

They have the cap space to go after a top flight FA and shouldn't need to be spending capital to get Bergy "his last shot."

 

I think they drop out of the elite. I think they remain in the playoffs picture and need to avoid the risk of becoming a bubble playoff team that can get in and "anything can happen."

 

Once that happens, they're done.

 

So they're several steps ahead of the Flyers in the "rebuild" area.

 

But, honestly, they have two Finals and one Cup under this group over 12 years. It's not like they've been a dominant team. They've been a very good team that has used team depth and character to make the runs they made.

 

They need to make a move. They need to acquire a big piece.

 

We'll hopefully be talking about this for the Flyers in a couple years.

[GrittyForever]

17 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

They're not going to be the well-oiled machine of last year, but I don't see them necessarily bottoming out.

 

They have the cap space to go after a top flight FA and shouldn't need to be spending capital to get Bergy "his last shot."

 

I think they drop out of the elite. I think they remain in the playoffs picture and need to avoid the risk of becoming a bubble playoff team that can get in and "anything can happen."

 

Once that happens, they're done.

 

So they're several steps ahead of the Flyers in the "rebuild" area.

 

But, honestly, they have two Finals and one Cup under this group over 12 years. It's not like they've been a dominant team. They've been a very good team that has used team depth and character to make the runs they made.

 

They need to make a move. They need to acquire a big piece.

 

We'll hopefully be talking about this for the Flyers in a couple years.

Well, like I said, if they perform free agency miracles maybe but otherwise they will fall. It's the price you pay for years of buying at the deadline. They have only one decent NHL prospect coming up and he's another D man. They might sneak in this year and then just miss next, but after that it's downhill without any brakes. We are near bottom, but now, finally, we are getting prospects. We will get better, it's just a question of how much and how soon. 

[radoran]

4 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

Well, like I said, if they perform free agency miracles maybe but otherwise they will fall.

 

Sure, but they have the cap space to make something happen.

 

We'd be happy to be where they are.

 

They have 1sts in 2 of the next three and gave up 2nds setting an NHL record for regular season points.

 

I do need to recount what the Flyers gave up in pursuit of being where they are.

 

I think we'd all be happy to have this declining Bruin's squad.

 

To be clear, I don't like building around wingers. Wingers unless they are a Forsberg or Ovechkin level aren't your core player. Pastrnak at $11.5M may not be a great thing.

 

But I'll take $20M in cap space after next season and see what's what.

[GrittyForever]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Sure, but they have the cap space to make something happen.

 

We'd be happy to be where they are.

 

They have 1sts in 2 of the next three and gave up 2nds setting an NHL record for regular season points.

 

I do need to recount what the Flyers gave up in pursuit of being where they are.

 

I think we'd all be happy to have this declining Bruin's squad.

 

To be clear, I don't like building around wingers. Wingers unless they are a Forsberg or Ovechkin level aren't your core player. Pastrnak at $11.5M may not be a great thing.

 

But I'll take $20M in cap space after next season and see what's what.

I don't know why you keep thinking they have all this cap space. Sure, if they don't sign any of their UFAs they will have a ton of cap space, but they will also have to sign half a roster with it. 9 UFAs and 2 RFAs and one of those UFAs is DeBrusk who likely will want a hefty raise. They will also have 1.3 owed to Reilly's buyout. So if they sign DeBrusk for 6 and one better FA for 6ish that'll leave about 15 or 16 million for 9 roster spots. Can't fill it with rookie contracts and stay good as they don't have good prospects so even if you sign 2-3 million type FAs you run out of that money pretty fast. 

[GrittyForever]

Bruins might already have their doubts about JVR as they signed Chiasson to a PTO. Maybe they sat down in the summer here and watched some JVR game film from last season