Jump to content

Our 2012-13 Backup Backstop | Who's It Gonna Be?


Guest Irishjim
 Share

Recommended Posts

Created just now

by

Michael DeNicola

As the NHL's 2012 off-season is potentially one Los Angeles' win away from taking flight, we're all beginning to get pumped for the Entry Draft, Free Agency Frenzy Day and the inevitable off-season deals each Club will participate themselves in.

Just today, Bill Meltzer (an incredibly brilliant hockey-mind who writes for the Flyers column on HockeyBuzz.com) posted an

article covering backup goaltenders, and poses a question about our own #2 Netminder for next season; Who's it gonna be?

As Bill mentions, the Pittsburgh Penguins have already gone out and traded for Tomas Vokoun to bolster Marc-Andre Fleury's twine on his off-days, thus solidifying this League's potential best goalie tandem. Say whatever you want about MAF's performance against our Flyers in the QuarterFinals, he's still an amazing talent. One who could steal many games and a Series. And if Vokoun manages a bounce-back year next season, he'll take a handful of starts away from Fleury that might otherwise wear the Penguins star goalie down by the time Playoffs get underway.

In all, it was an outstanding move by Pittsburgh......I think I just threw up in my mouth a little.

It was yesterday (Monday, June 4th) that I had a conversation about this very topic; Backup goaltender.

There's no easy way to put this, so here goes; I am absolutely all for the Philadelphia Flyers moving Sergei Bobrovsky for defensive support or moving up in the 2012 Draft. I've been saying this ever since the Flyers acquired Ilya Bryzgalov. That's nothing against The Bob. There's no question Sergei has all the workings of becoming a solid #1 in net someday. But right now, on this Flyers team, given all the circumstances, it'd be best to give him that chance elsewhere and use the money we save from his

salary(3yr/$2.7-Million, $1.75 AAV) to strengthen our skating depth.

Meltzer's fine with giving Bobrovsky another season behind Bryzgalov. But 2012-13 is the last year on his contract before he becomes a RFA. By then our only option would be trading his

re-signing rights which doesn't hold nearly as much value as trading him now while he's still under contract. And I can't imagine Sergei would be interested in re-signing in Philadelphia given the fact he'd sit behind Bryz without his much-deserved chance to start.

Pushing Bobrovsky alone in a proposal would not get us much return, which is why I could see him packaged up with a lower round pick or two to get a 2nd round Draft pick (which we lost in our 2011-12 mid-season trades) or mid-pairing defensive support.

But that's neither here nor there. I'm getting off topic.

Hypothetically, let's say the Flyers do wind up trading Sergei for [blank][blank]. Here's a linked list of the upcoming UFA goalies this off-season ---> provided by

CapGeek.com.

Of those listed, here are a handful of names I wouldn't mind Flyers management taking an interest in, given they don't re-sign with their existing Clubs:

Each of those five are adept to take the reins, and I assume their asking prices would be reasonable. They each have respectable stats and would compliment a Bryzgalov tandem.

But I'm not even pushing that as my first suggestion on what to do about a #2 goalie.

Niko Hovinen.

Do you remember him? The 6ft, 7in Helsinki goaltender who dwarfs the twine behind him, and hasNiko%203.jpga wingspan that would make a handshake between Shaquille O'Neal and a condor look like two midgets playing Rock, Paper, Scissors.

Niko's been playing up in Finland for the Pelicans of the SM-liiga, a Finnish hockey league. He's currently under contract with the Philadelphia Flyers, and made a short trip out to Vorhees, NJ for last year's prospect camp. I was attending that day and saw Hovinen between the pipes.

A barefoot man standing at 6'7" is rather ridiculous to a 5'8" man like myself. But when that giant steps onto the ice with skates lifting his person even higher? Niko looked as if he could trim the fingernails of God standing on his tippy toes.

But enough about his height. He's tall. You get it.

Niko Hovinen's stats over the years have shown struggles in net. But his last two seasons have improved dramatically, despite occupying the cage for the worst team in his league. Just last year Niko started 41-games, racked a 2.26 GAA and finished with a .920 SV%.

His talent analysis (thanks to HockeysFuture.com) says this --

Standing at over 6'7, Hovinen is a towering presence even in butterfly stance. He is the biggest Finnish goalie of his generation but still its typical member as far as movement goes. Despite his immature but big body, he has what it takes to dominate shooters with a butterfly style. He is calm but timid in his style of play: He doesn't lunge toward the puck forcefully enough and surprisingly gets pushed around. His ability to read the game is still undeveloped, which also hinders his puckhandling. Hovinen has fantastic game-breaking ability and possesses tools for development with few boundaries for his potential.

His prospect profile (thanks to Matias Strozyk from EliteProspects.com) says this --

A tall and strong goalie who covers the net very well. Good posture, technique and movement. Saves initial attempts well, but sometimes struggles to recover after a save and is therefore vulnerable to rebounds. Excellent work ethic.

Niko%202.jpgLike any player, Niko's game has its adversity to conquer. But at age 24, Hovinen has tremendous upside with very little risk. It's about the only thing little about him, HEYOOO!

His NHL salary is $900K, and cap hit is $950K. His recent statistics point towards major improvement and the potential to be an effective netminder in the more talent-structured leagues like the AHL or NHL.

With both Michael Leighton and Johan Backlund entering free agency once the 2011-12 season is through, this could be just the chance Niko's waited for to penetrate the prominent hockey guilds.

Personally I am a Hovinen fan. So if the Philadelphia Flyers do decide to hang on to Sergei Bobrovsky one last season, I firmly believe his starting chance with the Adirondack Phantoms should be enacted. There he could work on using his size further to his advantage while up against more able adversaries.

And prior to the 2012-13 season's trade deadline, if the Flyers find themselves in need to improve via trade and it involves Bobrovsky, we'd have a better grip on how ready Niko Hovinen is and know whether to call him up from Glens Falls or not.

It's a win-win.

niko%20hovinen%20pelicans.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 68
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

NIKO HOVINEN

All the way!!!!

My reasoning is that he will know his roll as the back up to Bryzgalov. My only fear is if he falls flat on his face playing in the NHL, our hands are tied.

Bryzgalov is a workhorse that should get 60-65 starts a year, that leaves 22-17 starts for Hovinen. This to me is a great number to get accustom to the NHL style of play. Should he be successful over a 3-4 year grooming period then by all likely hood he would get an increase in starts and eventually take over for Bryzgalov.

I like the idea of a solid prospect, one in which can be truly developed by the organization. Bobrovsky should have been that guy, but they over played him in his rookie year when we all know he should have played for the Phantoms last year to get his game situated. Now that ship has sailed it is time to focus on developing a true #1 and not continually trade for one that costs an arm and a leg.

Go Niko Go!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i still don't see why the flyers would go with a kid as bryzgalov's backup. hovinen will be, what, 32 whn bryzgalov is done in philly? what's the point of accepting the risks and stumbles rookie goalies inevitably have for a guy who will long since be gone by the time the team is ready to go goalie looking again?

and, with the single exception of tukka rask, NHL goalies don't devlop by sitting on the bench for 3-4 years.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with Noodle/Aziz. I don't see a point in a young up and comer looking to develop as a back-up. A proven veteran who would know his role would be a much better option. They know their role and how to prepare for it. There wouldn't be any tension or frustration due to lack of playing time, in fact, they'd probably be happy just to still be playing. Kinda like Boosh that one season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Corey Schneider, Mike Smith, Brian Elliot, Jaroslav Halak, Craig Anderson, for starters.

do the math on them. perfect examples, thank you.

schneider = has spent 2 seasons in the NHL, and look how comfortable that situation is

mike smith = spent 1 1/2 season in the NHL before being sent to tampa to take over the starting job. and then got injured. perpetually.

brian elliot = spent 1 season going back and forth evenly between the NHL and AHL before taking the majority of starts (55) in ottawa. has been projected as a career backup since, until he made some kind of crossroads bargin this season.

jaroslav halak = 1 season in montreal as the backup before taking the majority of starts (45), and then moving to st louis as the starter.

craig anderson = journeyman backup who spent 5 years in the AHL before bouncing from backup gig to backup gig to starter-turned-backup gig to backup-turned-starter gig. who knows what the future holds for this 31 year old?

again, goalies do not develop sitting on the bench for 3-4 years

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@

You're assuming that Bryzgalov will ride his entire contract out; which, at this point, may be a fair statement. However, I am taking what you said in consideration and thinking that maybe in two years Hovinen will be ready to back up Bryzgalov. Maybe Hovinen gets two years in the AHL and then moves up to back up Bryzgalov for two (that would put him at 28). In any case, Boucher would be ideal, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. To me Bryzgalov will probably get 3-4 more years under his contract and then either be traded or go back to KHL. That is my take. From day one of his contract I never envisioned it going all the way to completion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe Hovinen gets two years in the AHL and then moves up to back up Bryzgalov for two (that would put him at 28). In any case, Boucher would be ideal, but I don't see it happening anytime soon. To me Bryzgalov will probably get 3-4 more years under his contract and then either be traded or go back to KHL.

sure, hovinen to the AHL makes sense. let him bake down there, and who knows what happens in the future. just don't think you put him in an NHL jersey and let him rot.

bryzgalov can't go back to the KHL, and hard to see him being traded. overpaid, ineffective and movement-restricted, not really a seller's dream.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@

bryzgalov can't go back to the KHL, and hard to see him being traded. overpaid, ineffective and movement-restricted, not really a seller's dream.

These damn facts always seem to get in the way of my dreams.... Oh well, how about Michael Leighton? He should accept a pretty steep discount being that he hasn't seen a puck on an NHL rink in over a year. Or even Josh Harding? My concern is that the back-up can't be good because that would be yet another distraction to Mr. Universe (insert sarcasm font on that last sentence).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bertmega

i like the josh harding idea.

also, i agree with what you said about the not-really-good backup thing, because it's true. i have a feeling bryzgalov is going to make us wish several times each season that someone else could take over, and a legitimate option sitting behind him is going to cause a problem. i don't know how you avoid that, though, unless you have one of those really really a backup guys sitting there. like boucher. or johnson formerly from pitt. or hedberg from a few years ago. or even leighton.

i get stuck, though, because a big part of me would still hold out hope that 2nd guy could force the issue and make management allow him the starting job, inspite of the long term issues that would represent.

so, i don't know what to actually hope for. for the best bryzgalov, get a crappy guy in there who will sit paitently. for the best flyers, get a harding who just migth step up and get bryzgalov paid for handing out water bottles.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't see any name above that I thought made more sense than bringing back Bob for another season. In particular, I think penciling in Hovinen, who has no North American experience, is a horrible idea.

I would not assume the Flyers have decided to move Bob. They may or may not have "gone after" Vokoun. If they did, they thought Vokoun made sense but that doesn't mean that they think a lot of other guys out there are a better alternative to Bob. I'm not even sure Vokoun would be a better alternative, not because I don't think he can play (he can) or because I don't like his willingness to speak his mind (I do). I'm just not sure our head case starter could deal with being on the same roster as Vokoun.

Edited by terp
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't see any name above that I thought made more sense than bringing back Bob for another season.

the problem is bob was bad last season. he really didn't do well coming off the bench, and any progress he made during the previous season was undone by just sitting there for so long. if the idea is to more consistently give bryzgalov time, bob will only get worse. beyond that, what was decent trade value in a surprising rookie goalie has already erroded to very little value.....

on the one hand, bob is not a stable and realible option to sit second string. on the other, his abilities are likely to continue to atrophy getting a couple starts every month. it seems to me it is a lose-lose situation for the flyers and bob himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a big part of the question....and one that I think is worth discussing...IF they trade Bob, what exactly is coming back(granted, I have no idea what his market value would be). I mean if we can package him and JVR, for say, Zdeno Chara(he he, but you get my point), then I think trading him makes a lot of sense. However, if it's a bag of pucks and a 6th round draft pick, to help save 500K on the cap for our backup goalie, then I say keep him, and ride let it ride into his RFA year.

I don't mean to hijack the thread, but Bob, a mid-to-high pick, and a solid player could yield a heck of a return for the Flyers, given the right trading partner. But that still leaves the question raised in the OP...who is the backup?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@

schneider = has spent 2 seasons in the NHL, and look how comfortable that situation is

Schneider, Berneir, Bob all the same. They all have completed 2 yrs as a backup. Chances are 2 of the 3 will be a back up next year.....still developing as their third year in the NHL.

craig anderson = journeyman backup who spent 5 years in the AHL before bouncing from backup gig to backup gig to starter-turned-backup gig to backup-turned-starter gig. who knows what the future holds for this 31 year old?

What has the 5 years in the AHL have to do with this. The fact is he has been a backup 3 years in the NHL and is still progressing a starter.

mike smith = spent 1 1/2 season in the NHL before being sent to tampa to take over the starting job. and then got injured. perpetually.

do your homework aziz, Smith was the backup in Dallas 2 years, then only played 42 games with the Lightening once, from 2006 to 2011-12 where he became the starter for Phoenix. I'd call that 3-4 years as a backup easily.

Chris Mason was a backup 3 yrs before he started the next two.

Harding has been a back-up for the last 4 years and is ready and proved in MN that he can be the starter.

The one thing you keep forgetting with back-up goaltenders is that the number of jobs available is less than the number of goalies available to fill them, especially with each year of quality goaltending entering the league.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Schneider, Berneir, Bob all the same. They all have completed 2 yrs as a backup. Chances are 2 of the 3 will be a back up next year.....still developing as their third year in the NHL.

i wouldn't be the least bit suprised to 3 all three elsewhere come next season. i'm not sure what your "chances are" is based on. we'll see, i guess, but kinda tough to use speculation as an argument, no?

What has the 5 years in the AHL have to do with this. The fact is he has been a backup 3 years in the NHL and is still progressing a starter

it has everything to do with it. the discussion is about taking a guy and begining his north american development as a benchwarmer. if a goalie played 5 years in the AHL, that is exactly not the situation being discussed. anderson developed in the american league, was identified as NHL backup-level talent, was used as such, and has suprised for brief stints as a starter. he wasn't given starting time until his 3rd NHL team, a paper thin colorado squad who had no better answers, and he shocked the league for half a season by playing well above his scouting report. he returned to form the next season, was suplanted on the depth chart, and is now trying to resurrect in ottawa. 31 year old journeyman craig anderson is not an analogy for a would-be rookie fresh from europe.

do your homework aziz, Smith was the backup in Dallas 2 years, then only played 42 games with the Lightening once, from 2006 to 2011-12 where he became the starter for Phoenix. I'd call that 3-4 years as a backup easily.

excuse me? homework? smith backed up in dallas for one full season (after, again, being developed in the AHL and ECHL for 4 years), and was then traded at the deadline the next. he did not finish a second season in dallas. tampa picked him up to be their starter, as they had relied on ultra-crappy johan holmqvist to that point, and smith started something like 13 of their last 20 games that season. he carried the load the next season until he was concussed and missed the second half, having played 41 games through the end of january. unsure of how he'd return after having missed 3 months of play, tampa brought niittymaki in the next fall, and the two were supposed to compete for the starting job. and neither won it. thus, roloson was eventually imported.

so, 1.5 seasons as a developing NHL goaltender in dallas. 1-ish seasons in tampa as the starter. 1.5 seasons spent competing with crappy goalies (niitty and ellis) for the #1 job in tampa, followed by half a season of ignominious backseating to roloson. and finally the starting gig in PHX. this was not "3-4 years" of developing as a #2 goalie. it was a season and a half of developing, and the rest struggling to maintain the job he was given halfway through that second season. not to mention the 4 seasons in the AHL before all of it.

Chris Mason was a backup 3 yrs before he started the next two.

chris mason? 36 yearold, drafted by the devils, played 6 years in the AHL/IHL, most recently a backup for the jets chris mason? what are we trying to prove with him? i think he's a horrible example, but if you really want to break it down, he spent 2 years as a backup for the predators before splitting time with vokoun and then ellis for another 2, and then getting the #1 gig in st louis for yet another 2. and is now back to being a backup. he was 27 in that first full year in the NHL. that's well past "developement" stage. i mean, look, sure, every now and then you're gonna have that guy who pops up out of nowhere and breaks the mold a little. generally for a short while, but still. anderson is the same. chris mason is and was a career backup at best who a couple teams took chances on, and then quickly thought better of it. boucher has gotten his shots, too.

Harding has been a back-up for the last 4 years and is ready and proved in MN that he can be the starter.

you know, this is the one that makes me think a little. first of all, this is another guy who was left to bake in the minors for a while, three years in the AHL. then again, he really has spent forever on the bench in MN, but *seems* to have the stuff for a #1 job. of course, he's never seen more than 34 games in a season, so he could just be the most perfect backup goalie ever. no one will know until he is given the chance to drive the boat, really.

look, this whole discussion has been about kids who are still learning the game at the professional level and whether or not those first several years are best spent on the bench in the NHL or starting 3 of 4 games in the AHL. each and every one of the goalies you have brought up were given those 3, 4, 5, 6 years in the minors before they were asked to watch quietly from the sidelines for a while in the NHL. each one. and the ones who showed real promise only spent a season or two at the NHL level before they were given starting jobs. harding being the one exception/questionmark. yes, you have the chris masons and craig andersons, but i argue that they did not show that promise, that they were designated backups by the pro scouting community, and were either given starting chances because of a desperate team or because they elevated their play dramatically at some point mid-career.

my opinion remains that initial exposure to the professional level of hockey being an extended stay on the bench is the single worst way to develop goaltending talent, and i have yet to see a single example to counter that. the most common theme through all of the goalies you have mentioned has been extended stays in the AHL (and ILH in mason's case). these are not anologous to bob/hoivonen.

edit:

The one thing you keep forgetting with back-up goaltenders is that the number of jobs available is less than the number of goalies available to fill them, especially with each year of quality goaltending entering the league.

are you refering to starting talent, or backup talent? because i look around the league and see teams with some pretty terrible solutions for both. there are spots available for someone talented enough to take them.

Edited by noodl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is bob was bad last season. he really didn't do well coming off the bench, and any progress he made during the previous season was undone by just sitting there for so long. if the idea is to more consistently give bryzgalov time, bob will only get worse. beyond that, what was decent trade value in a surprising rookie goalie has already erroded to very little value.....

on the one hand, bob is not a stable and realible option to sit second string. on the other, his abilities are likely to continue to atrophy getting a couple starts every month. it seems to me it is a lose-lose situation for the flyers and bob himself.

Bob has pretty marginal trade value right now and I don't think it took much of a hit because of his performance this past season. He's still seen as having a ceiling of "1A", tweener or what have you. Young goaltenders often don't develop linearly (Smith, Thomas, on and on). So we don't lose out by hanging on to him. In fact, unlike any of the backups that are available, he may develop into a goaltender with some actual value.

Also, in order to actually consider unloading him, you have to have an actual player in mind and not merely the notion that a veteran, former #1 would be a better fit. I agree that Vokoun would actually fill out this "notion" nicely. But he is more expensive than Bob and what's more, he's already gone. So who else? I think you are way to kind to Boucher at this point because while he's a great teammate, he was horribly inconsistent. Biron? I know you don't really mean that. My point is, show me a better back up and I'll show you a more expensive player who is at best a marginal improvement, if at all.

The Flyers are full of surprises so you never know but at least for now, I'd say it is more likely than not that Bob is with the team in training camp.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So who else? I think you are way to kind to Boucher at this point because while he's a great teammate, he was horribly inconsistent. Biron? I know you don't really mean that. My point is, show me a better back up and I'll show you a more expensive player who is at best a marginal improvement, if at all.

well, i don't know. 3.02/.899sv% and some serious focus questions last season, not sure that bob showed himself to be king of any hill. boucher's numbers were worse, but he played behind a WAY worse team than bob. you know what you are going to get with boucher: not many embarassing softies, but a steady stream of "wish he was better". which is, imo, the definition of a backup goalie. else, he would be a starter. same with biron. he isn't great, but doesn't have OMGUSUK moments often. not a difference maker, but steady average.

what worries me is that bob did have a bunch of those OMG moments last season. he really seemed to struggle with focus after extended bench time, and his technique regressed, if anything. making saves on plays during drills in practice is a very different animal from making saves in a live fire environment, and some goalies need game time to get and keep themselves sharp. bob strikes me as that kind of goalie. has showed he is that kind of goalie. maybe he can tighten that up and become a reliable off-the-bench backup over the next several years...but why hope for that eventually when you could just go out and get it now?

names, well... biron is UFA this summer, made $875k with NYR, so he's an option. boucher is under contract for another season in carolina for $950k, obviously you aren't going to spend big assets to get him, and really i wouldn't think carolina is motivated to move him for a 5th round pick or anything...don't know of any guy they have waiting in the wings. curtis sandford is UFA, and had a pretty ok season all things considered in columbus, and would be cheap. montoya in NYI is UFA. macdonald in detroit is cheap. i'd say the most interesting two are clemmensen and harding, both are UFA and both have shown themselves very comfortable with spot starts and relief appearances. i'd probably look most closely at those two. i have to think harding is going to want a shot at a starting job, so that might make negotiations a little rough, given the bryzgalov thing. i'd be pretty ok with clemmensen.

i mean, remember, the job is to start in 20-25 games, and to be available mid-game if something happens to the starter. you don't need a world beater, you just want a guy who is going to give a solid effort you can win in front of on short notice. you don't look at your backup to win games *for* you, you just don't want him to lose games for you. bob was unsteady last season, and that is a common thing for a young goalie. if you are trying to develop your starter of the future, you are willing to deal with that instability. if you have no intention of that guy being the man in the next couple years, though, why put up with a kid's growing pains? why not go with a stable and developed adult who, while posessing a lower potential ceiling overall, has a professional understanding and acceptance of what his role is and has the appropriate mindset/disposition to do it?

as for bob's value....i don't know. i think after his rookie year, there were a lot of people around the league who saw him and went, "hey, the kid could be great, did you see him for the first, like, 3/4ths of the season? we can work with that, he burned out, but hey, he'll grow into it," and would have valued him relatively high. with last season, though, i have to think the common view is, "ah, one of those, flashy entrance, and then flame out. we've seen that before, we see that every few years. pass." i could be wrong, but i think he's gone from being a worthwhile bet to a longshot really only interesting to teams in a bind. don't get me wrong, there are teams in a bind, i can see tampa sending something back for him. it's just that this time last season, they maybe would have sent a 2nd round pick for him, today we're talking about a 5th.

edit: and i have to disagree with the "we don't lose out by hanging on to him because goalies don't develop linearly" thing. you are, of course, correct, a lot of goalies pop their heads up at age 30 and are suddenly effective..but they were worthless prior to that. smith was waived by tampa, AND cleared re-entry waivers...no one in the league would take him for free with half the cap hit. thomas's rights went un-owned for 2 years before he signed with boston in 05. age 29-31 no one wanted to even add him to the deeps of their depth charts.

a ton of goalies make appearances in the league every year, a lot of them have exciting debuts. very few of them pan out. people are very used to seeing goalies who look great for a few months amount to nothing at all, and the value bob established out of the gate will fade fast. he was unknown before he showed up in the flyers' camp, and he is sliding back into unknown. another season like he had last, and it becomes a question if anyone signs him at all next summer, or he just heads back to europe like so many others have. where oh where is karri ramo, once one of the most highly touted goaltending prospects in the world? two unimpressive seasons in north america and he is now in the KHL.

the other thing we have to lose are the occasional starts that bob gets, and the iffy play he brings, should he respond to inconsistent ice time like he did last season. that counts, too.

Edited by noodl
Link to comment
Share on other sites

the problem is bob was bad last season.

This is a complete misnomer. Bob had a bad February (no worse than Bryz's actually) and was rarely played March / April until Bryz had some foot problems.

Up until the end of January, Bob was more than able (2.48 gaa / .917 sv pctg) AND was playing head and shoulders above Bryz's shakey play, despite not getting the call much.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Up until the end of January, Bob was more than able (2.48 gaa / .917 sv pctg) AND was playing head and shoulders above Bryz's shakey play, despite not getting the call much.

if you were actually comfortable with bob's starts last season, and felt like his game was solid...then we'll agree to disagree. he fought the puck all season long, imo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...