Is Coburn or Mez worthy of being a #1 D-man on other teams?

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

Like I said, you remove Pronger, Meszaros and Carle and Coburn or Timonen or anyone is going to suffer. You can say you like Orpik, but remove Letang, Martin and Niskanen and see how good he looks. Anyone looks better surrounded by quality depth. Take it away and it's going to hurt.

[flyerrod]

Do you realize what you've done?!?! You've put Timonen as a #5 defenseman! When I suggested that would be where he'd play on a lot of other NHL teams I got hell for it! Just sayin'... LOL

A HEALTHY Timmonen you would be hard pressed to put below top 2 pairings on any team. That said, I think he is showing this year that he has lost a step after the surgery he had in the off season. Most of the remarks made about Timmo had the caveat of his recovery from surgery before judging him. Coburn looked great when paired with Hatcher but I don't think he has the smarts to be a true number one or leader. He will excel when paired with a strong d-man as Therien did with Desjardins . If Mez can every stay healthy long enough to play a stretch of games, I think he will show that he has the skills to be a top 4 guy but like Coburn, he lacks the fire to be a real leader on the ice.

[canoli]

Ha! great follow-up Doc from the chat room the other night.

I have a handful of disagreements with your list, the most obvious one being the Canadiens - Markov vs Coburn. Since it's been 4 years since Markov has played more than 40-odd games in a season you have to hand "toughness" or "resiliency" to Coburn. Positionally I'd call them equal, ability to defend their net. I only watched 1 Canadiens game this year so I'm going on memory somewhat but I'd say Coburn and Markov are both "legit" 1/2 guys; Markov scores a lot of points whereas Coburn does not but if we're talking Defense it's a pick-em imo.

Regarding P.K. Subban - I don't get the justification for putting him ahead of Coburn or Meszaros, or a lot of NHL d-men for that matter.

couple other quick ones -

Letang is not better defensively than Coburn. Not saying he sucks, just not any better than Coburn. Paul Martin? Eh, maybe yes maybe no, I'd say about equal defensively.

Ryan Suter - never been a fan of Suter. Without Weber as his partner he's not exactly the "difference-maker" people were expecting when they were clamoring for him last summer.

Talinder / Greene - yeah they both look good, though less so lately now that Hedberg is getting the starts. Hmm...wonder if Brodeur has some effect on the quality of D the Devils usually get...

Thanks for the leg work - good chart, good analysis. I quibbled with a few but the bigger point, that the Flyers could use some better D men is not lost on me. Still, on that note I'd repeat what I said in chat the other night - "better D would not have won the game" (vs Pens). When your team fails to score even ONE goal in 40 minutes - in consecutive, division-rival games no less - you may have other issues besides defending your net.

[pilldoc]

@canoli

thanks for the positive feedback. Nah don't worry about the few quibbles. I don't claim to be the most knowledgable fan on all the players in the league.

Edited March 9, 2013 by pilldoc

[Polaris922]

@flyercanuck

Not arguing how you got there, just that that's where you are.

@flyerrod

I disagree on Timmonen. I started trying to tell you guys how he'd been slowing down consistently before any surgery, and I stand by that. Yes he had a routine surgery in the off season, but surely you see just how much he's lost. Was once a great d-man but his time has past.

[Mad Dog]

I disagree on Timmonen. I started trying to tell you guys how he'd been slowing down consistently before any surgery, and I stand by that. Yes he had a routine surgery in the off season, but surely you see just how much he's lost. Was once a great d-man but his time has past.

And you know what? After watching the last several games, I would have to side with you, as painful as it is. Slowly he is becoming more of a liability than help.

[Polaris922]

And you know what? After watching the last several games, I would have to side with you, as painful as it is. Slowly he is becoming more of a liability than help.

Sorry bud it always sucks to watch a player in decline. Defense is brutal on guys too. He's still serviceable just not top pairing material, and if paired with a physical defender could still help your cause from a lower pairing.

[Polaris922]

Ha! great follow-up Doc from the chat room the other night.

I have a handful of disagreements with your list, the most obvious one being the Canadiens - Markov vs Coburn. Since it's been 4 years since Markov has played more than 40-odd games in a season you have to hand "toughness" or "resiliency" to Coburn. Positionally I'd call them equal, ability to defend their net. I only watched 1 Canadiens game this year so I'm going on memory somewhat but I'd say Coburn and Markov are both "legit" 1/2 guys; Markov scores a lot of points whereas Coburn does not but if we're talking Defense it's a pick-em imo.

Regarding P.K. Subban - I don't get the justification for putting him ahead of Coburn or Meszaros, or a lot of NHL d-men for that matter.

couple other quick ones -

Letang is not better defensively than Coburn. Not saying he sucks, just not any better than Coburn. Paul Martin? Eh, maybe yes maybe no, I'd say about equal defensively.

Ryan Suter - never been a fan of Suter. Without Weber as his partner he's not exactly the "difference-maker" people were expecting when they were clamoring for him last summer.

Talinder / Greene - yeah they both look good, though less so lately now that Hedberg is getting the starts. Hmm...wonder if Brodeur has some effect on the quality of D the Devils usually get...

Thanks for the leg work - good chart, good analysis. I quibbled with a few but the bigger point, that the Flyers could use some better D men is not lost on me. Still, on that note I'd repeat what I said in chat the other night - "better D would not have won the game" (vs Pens). When your team fails to score even ONE goal in 40 minutes - in consecutive, division-rival games no less - you may have other issues besides defending your net.

I think the mistake you're making is comparing them solely on defensive work, and not their complete impact on the team. I felt Coburn was your best d-man in the playoffs last year. He plays physical and is defense first.

Having said that, he's not the defender Letang or Martin are. Coburn can't move the puck and he's not a guy who can skate the puck out of trouble.

Subban I can't stand, but he does everything Coburn does yet moves the puck and shoots the puck as well. That opens the gap over Coburn exponentially, just like Letang and Martin.

Talinder and Green are both above average but I'm not of the thinking they're great. I think they do benefit from the play of Brodeur, but they're solid d-men. I'd say fairly on par with Coburn defensively but both can move the puck a little better.

I think Coburn is a good second pairing guy. For him to make the leap to first pairing you're gonna need a true #1 guy who can bring out a little more from Coburn.