Mason?

[canoli]

@toughfighter83

you're one of few remaining "the goalie isn't the problem" observers then; by now everyone else who talks hockey realizes Bryzgalov has just not been good enough.

[edit: just in case ... "so he thinks the team is just fine" - no my friend hardly that. Nobody denies the Flyers need help in other areas.

For the Flyers the absolute best you can say about Bryzgalov is he's been uneven. That doesn't sound too terrible but there are degrees of uneven - ups and downs right? Well let's face it his "ups" aren't exactly phenomenal and his "downs" are about as bad as you'll ever see in the NHL. Once upon a time maybe...runner-up Vezina, top-whatever Hart finalist... but now he's not even close to returning what his cap hit costs the team. Even the kindest assessment ends with Recommend: Amnesty Buyout.]

Edited April 8, 2013 by canoli

[ruxpin]

it is the defense for god sakes, you call players standing around bryz, constant breakdowns great defense? why cant you just admit this team stinks, im tired of the finger pointing at the goalie when this team flat out sucks, this team is what it is, you cant point fingers at the goaltending, the team is bad so is the goalie, the goalie can only do so much until he breaks down, they have been bad since the season started im watching it, the team is flat out terrible.

you can bring bob, bernier, howard etc, it will not solve this team's poor effort, it's the coaching, team, and gm. if you want to believe another goalie will change this team like every other year, then you are clearly in denial. this team is bad whether you like it or not.

It's the defense. Explain the numbers. Not once in that do you address the numbers. You say "everyone is finger pointing at the goalie when this team flat out sucks." Defend this. You don't.

I'll type this as slowly as I can: 7th fewest shots against. That means that goalies on 23 teams see MORE shots per game than Bryz. That means 23 team defenses allow MORE shots than the Flyers team that sucks. Again, we're talking "team" defense here, not the six defensemen (I don't do enough drugs to argue Gervais is good). But 23 teams play worse defense, by the numbers, than the Flyers. There is some argument to be made regarding the quality of the shots, but that's difficult to quantify. If someone has access to stats as to how many 2 on 1's or how many break aways each team gives up, I'd find that interesting.

But shots allowed vs. shots allowed, the Flyers team defense stacks up. So does its offense.

What does not stack up is the save percentage. Canoli said this is a team stat. I disagree. Goals against average is clearly a team stat in addition to the goalie, but there are 25 teams with better. The save percentage in this case is particularly interesting. Canoli, I disagree that this is about team. Again, there is an argument to be made regarding quality, so that does play some. But when a goalie is facing fewer shots but giving up a higher percentage of them--the Flyers have the 29th worst save percentage while giving up the 7th fewest number of shots--this says something about the goalie.

Toughfighter: I have great suspicions about whether you finished junior high. I usually let the incredibly poor writing and utter lack logic go and will continue to, but don't put words in my mouth either. At no time did I say this defense was great. Have someone help you with the high school reading comprehension if you need to. I didn't say this defense was great and I didn't say this team was good or any other of the idiocies you came back with. What I did say is that the numbers don't lie and the people trying to blindly give Bryz a pass need to do nothing more than look at the numbers or watch the game and have the slightest idea what they're looking at to know that Bryz is as much a part of the problem as anything. And when it's 7th best shots against and 2nd worst save percentage--that adds up to the goalie being a LARGE part of the problem.

[toughfighter83]

It's the defense. Explain the numbers. Not once in that do you address the numbers. You say "everyone is finger pointing at the goalie when this team flat out sucks." Defend this. You don't.

I'll type this as slowly as I can: 7th fewest shots against. That means that goalies on 23 teams see MORE shots per game than Bryz. That means 23 team defenses allow MORE shots than the Flyers team that sucks. Again, we're talking "team" defense here, not the six defensemen (I don't do enough drugs to argue Gervais is good). But 23 teams play worse defense, by the numbers, than the Flyers. There is some argument to be made regarding the quality of the shots, but that's difficult to quantify. If someone has access to stats as to how many 2 on 1's or how many break aways each team gives up, I'd find that interesting.

But shots allowed vs. shots allowed, the Flyers team defense stacks up. So does its offense.

What does not stack up is the save percentage. Canoli said this is a team stat. I disagree. Goals against average is clearly a team stat in addition to the goalie, but there are 25 teams with better. The save percentage in this case is particularly interesting. Canoli, I disagree that this is about team. Again, there is an argument to be made regarding quality, so that does play some. But when a goalie is facing fewer shots but giving up a higher percentage of them--the Flyers have the 29th worst save percentage while giving up the 7th fewest number of shots--this says something about the goalie.

Toughfighter: I have great suspicions about whether you finished junior high. I usually let the incredibly poor writing and utter lack logic go and will continue to, but don't put words in my mouth either. At no time did I say this defense was great. Have someone help you with the high school reading comprehension if you need to. I didn't say this defense was great and I didn't say this team was good or any other of the idiocies you came back with. What I did say is that the numbers don't lie and the people trying to blindly give Bryz a pass need to do nothing more than look at the numbers or watch the game and have the slightest idea what they're looking at to know that Bryz is as much a part of the problem as anything. And when it's 7th best shots against and 2nd worst save percentage--that adds up to the goalie being a LARGE part of the problem.

lol

Edited April 8, 2013 by toughfighter83

[ruxpin]

lol

Gotta say. That actually made me smile. Well-played.

[canoli]

he Flyers have the 29th worst save percentage while giving up the 7th fewest number of shots--this says something about the goalie.

Flyers at 7th with 27.6 - TB 21st at 29.8. Worst team Buff at 33.

sorry rux these are waaaay too close to say the ratty Save% is all on the goalie. We're talking a difference of 2 shots over 60 minutes between the 7th place team and the 21st place team. But since we're talking about Bryzgalov and I have watched the games I know it's mostly on Bryzgalov.

When you told FF to "just watch the game" you're saying your point is basically common sense right? Pretty much anyone who watches the game will see what you see? But it's also common sense that the goalie's Save% is partly a team stat, which is what I said.

"partly" covers my ass i this world and the next and anyone who disagrees oughta do us all a favor and "watch the game."

[canoli]

he Flyers have the 29th worst save percentage while giving up the 7th fewest number of shots--this says something about the goalie.

Shots Against:

Flyers in 7th with 27.6

TB 21st at 29.8.

Worst team Buff at 33.

Jersey is best giving up 24.4

Save%

OMG Bryzgalov is on the LAST PAGE at nhl.com! Good grief no wonder...lol.

Anyway ..sorry rux but those ShotsAgainst numbers are waaaay too close to blame the ratty Save% all on the goalie. We're talking a difference of 2 shots per game between the 7th place team and the 21st place team. But all it takes is a little common sense to understand how the goalie's Save% is partly a team stat (which is what I said) and you know "partly" covers my ass in this world and the next.

[ruxpin]

Flyers at 7th with 27.6 - TB 21st at 29.8. Worst team Buff at 33.

sorry rux these are waaaay too close to say the ratty Save% is all on the goalie. We're talking a difference of 2 shots over 60 minutes between the 7th place team and the 21st place team. But since we're talking about Bryzgalov and I have watched the games I know it's mostly on Bryzgalov.

When you told FF to "just watch the game" you're saying your point is basically common sense right? Pretty much anyone who watches the game will see what you see? But it's also common sense that the goalie's Save% is partly a team stat, which is what I said.

"partly" covers my ass i this world and the next and anyone who disagrees oughta do us all a favor and "watch the game."

First of all, LMAO @ "partly" covering your ass. I like it. Simple. Easy to remember.

I understand the point you're making that the numbers are close on the shots allowed. When you're talking the difference between a .890 and a .910 save percentage, that's not actually a very long walk either. So the devil isn't actually in the difference between 27.1 and 27.8 shots against.or whatever (actually, the difference between the 27 and the 33 is pretty big when you're talking about 2 more shots per period. Breaking it down to just 2 isn't that big of a deal, but it does make a big difference).

But the point, Canoli, is that by the numbers you can't blame the poor GAA or the poor Save% on the defense when they are actually doing AS well or better than most other teams. As I said in the other post, I do have to allow for "quality" as compared to the other teams. I personally can't quantify this. Just from anecdotal memory, I remember Bryz being hung out to dry with boneheaded defensive breakdowns quite a bit.

This hasn't turned into appreciably more shots against, though. It actually is less. Are the boneheaded breakdowns more or less than other goalies face? I don't know. Because it seems like an absurd amount of breakdowns just when compared to the Flyers last year, I would have to guess the Flyers breakdown are more often than other teams. But I can't quantify this. You know? Maybe if someone could find a stat that lists teams and how many 2 on 1s or breakaways each have given up, we could at least measure that. There may be such a stat. I don't know. But I highly doubt there's a stat out there for how many times a team has bobbled a breakout pass or both dmen covered the same guy, etc. But one thing I do know is those things haven't translated into a higher shot total--the only thing I can quantify at this point.

The other thing I can quantify is offense. Looking at the numbers, I can see the Flyers are in the top 3rd in both goals and goals/game. This is admittedly deceiving. I haven't done the work, but I know--and I know you do, too--that if you took just 5-on-5 goals that the Flyers are probably woeful. The numbers I'm citing include power play goals, etc. So the offense argument is undermined a bit by this. But overall, the flyers are scoring sufficiently that while it's part of the overall package in terms of problems with this team, the offense is not the crux of the issue.

My initial reason for posting in this thread--a thread initially about Mason--was once again the claim that this isn't about the goalie; it's about the defense. My point was that this claim is dishonest and not supported by numbers. My numbers weren't intended to acquit the defense of any culpability. Once again, any claim that a defense that includes Foster and Gervais is decent would take large amounts of mind-altering drugs. The real point was that if you WATCH the game--and I know YOU have--you have seen a goalie DUCK out of the way of a shot that went in, you've seen him on the wrong side of the goal post, you've seen him way too deep in his net, you've seen him with very bad angles, you've seen him give up horrible rebounds (repeatedly), etc. etc. Canoli, I know none of this has escaped your attention; you've commented on the very same.

I didn't defend the defense. What I did say--and I think when it boils down to it that you will support this--is that defending Bryz and giving him a pass while blaming this all on the defense (implying that Bryz is not at fault--something I'm not accusing YOU of doing) is not honest and is not supported either by the numbers nor by actually watching the games.

Yes, defensive breakdowns. But "could another goalie have done better?" I'm sorry, but the answer to this is a resounding yes. Could another goalie have done "well?" Probably not. Better? Yes. I will say this: I don't think I've ever seen Marty Brodeur or any of the other goalies mentioned DUCK A SHOT. I don't care how bad Bruno Gervais is. He didn't make Bryz DUCK. Thus my "watch the game." You don't see the "duck" in the stats, so you have to watch it and see it to believe it. It wasn't directed at you.

[ruxpin]

Shots Against:

Flyers in 7th with 27.6

TB 21st at 29.8.

Worst team Buff at 33.

Jersey is best giving up 24.4

Save%

OMG Bryzgalov is on the LAST PAGE at nhl.com! Good grief no wonder...lol.

Anyway ..sorry rux but those ShotsAgainst numbers are waaaay too close to blame the ratty Save% all on the goalie. We're talking a difference of 2 shots per game between the 7th place team and the 21st place team. But all it takes is a little common sense to understand how the goalie's Save% is partly a team stat (which is what I said) and you know "partly" covers my ass in this world and the next.

First of all, I did allow for the "partly" with my mention of QUALITY.

When you bring it down to per game, the one or maybe two shot difference is not that big of a deal. (except, despite the difference between 33 and 24 is only 3 shots per period, that IS actually a pretty big difference). The sole point was you can't blame amount of rubber on the goalie as the reason for the poor save percentage. I think that was actually made clear in my first post. Nit-picking that "2 shots are not a big deal" completely misses my point.

I'm not sure what the following proves exactly, but check this out (I found it interesting and I'm not sure why):

The Pens have played 39 games, have given up a total of 1123 shots against (28.8 spg) have a save percentage of .916 and have given up 95 goals and have scored 127.

If you multiply Bryz' save percentage against their shots, you end up with 124 goals against (a difference of 29) and, most importantly, their goal differential goes from +32 to +3. It's only a 1 shot/game difference, 1123 - 1076 total (projected to 39 games for the flyers from their 38 game total)= 47, but the goal difference (29) is deadly because of the save percentage.

Again, I'll take your "partly" since it was my initial point (DON'T GIVE BRYZ A PASS ON THE "PARTLY" BECAUSE "PARTLY" INDICATES THE OTHER "PARTLY" IS THE GOALIE!!!). But of the two stats, Bryz has NOTHING to do with number of shots. That's completely on the team defense, and on that they're holding their own. The part that really sucks is the part that the defense is only PARTLY responsible for.

[Polaris922]

@ruxpin

Your anecdotal evidence is accurate. I watched a lot of video early on of your Flyers and Bryz was just being hung out to dry three or four goals a game. That's when I was really going after Timonen and missing Carle's puck moving.

I haven't watched as much since then but what I've seen the D has improved a little while Bryz has regressed slightly. The man has GOT to be exhausted by now! Maybe Mason can get him some rest.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

Your anecdotal evidence is accurate. I watched a lot of video early on of your Flyers and Bryz was just being hung out to dry three or four goals a game. That's when I was really going after Timonen and missing Carle's puck moving.

I haven't watched as much since then but what I've seen the D has improved a little while Bryz has regressed slightly. The man has GOT to be exhausted by now! Maybe Mason can get him some rest.

Yeah, you know I've been defending Bryz most of the year. I completely buy the exhausted thing. We can't all have a brilliant GM who realizes the fact that you cannot go into a season without a backup and so goes and gets not only a backup but a pretty darn good one.

I think your post is spot on. But I now see a lot of what I saw last year from him when he wasn't as tired but had the excuse that it was a new city, etc. My patience with him has evaporated. I guess fatigue doesn't explain the reflex action of DUCKING a shot, either.

I just think the contract is ridiculous and they have a chance (albeit an expensive chance) at a do-over. They oughta do it.

[fan4ever]

@ruxpin

Love your new avatar!!

[flyercanuck]

You know your goalie is the problem when you've got Pens fans sticking up for him and pleading with us not to buy him out.

[ruxpin]

Um, no. If a goalie faces ten shots from the blue line, and another goalie faces ten shots from uncovered forwards right in front of the crease, who do you think will have the better save pct?

By no means am I saying Bryz is awesome, buy him out? Fine with me. But defensive zone coverage has been abysmal, turnovers deep in the Flyers zone are the norm for this team. Save pct is most definitely not all on the crazy goalie.

Yeah, "solely" was overstated. But it's the only stat, along with GAA, that he is responsible for. He's not responsible for number of shots, etc., which actually isn't bad.

[canoli]

@ruxpin

Honestly I don't know if we're disagreeing or what (!) but I got a radical idea. What would you say to just getting rid of Bryzgalov, take our chances with a new goalie?

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

Honestly I don't know if we're disagreeing or what (!) but I got a radical idea. What would you say to just getting rid of Bryzgalov, take our chances with a new goalie?

I'd say we agree to disagree about agreeing but while we're disagreeably agreeing to disagree about agreeing that I agree we should not disagree to agreeing about getting rid of Bryz.

[canoli]

I agree we should not disagree to agreeing about getting rid of Bryz.

Agreed. No more disagreements then, either about agreeing or disagreeing. Bryzgalov agrees to go and even if he disagrees he still goes. And we all agree Bryzgalov is one disagreeable goaltender.

(previous 2 posts from rux and canoli excerpted verbatim from U.S. Congress floor speech, April 8, 2013)

[flyercanuck]

My head hurts.

[LegionOfDoom]

I seen a good amount of games, some I would like to take back those wasted hours of watching to do something more productive, like taking out the trash. But in all these posts, the underlying answer is that the defensesive breakdowns (sucks) and the goalie one on ones (sucks), and positional plays (sucks G,D), clearing attempts (sucks), terrible line changeing (sucks), team blitzing on one opponent with the puck (sucks, Jersey's good at that usually) Team defense (sucks) 60 minute efforts (sucks). Professionalism on the ice (sucks), supporting puck carrying offense(meh)

Stating who let the flys in the house and argueing that one person left the door open and the other person left the window open with no screen, doesn't matter anymore.

Steve Mason looks like the Fly Swatter.

Go Flyers.

[Polaris922]

You know your goalie is the problem when you've got Pens fans sticking up for him and pleading with us not to buy him out.

I fully expect a buyout... Any reasonable GM would want to dump that contract. Hell any reasonable GM would never sign that contract! So... Hmm... Strike what I said about expecting a buyout.

[LegionOfDoom]

Mason reminds me of a little of the best parts of certain goalies, grant it. it's quite immature at the moment but looking into the oven I see Bob's reflexes, Hextall/Brodeur like puck control, and believe it or not one thing I liked about Leighton to a degree is that he looked big in net, but other than that part, nothing like Leighton.

Now grant it, this is just to new to take out. One thing I wonder is, if he has sharpened up on, letting in of soft goals; maturity hopefully and calmness will shore that up.