Reese changing Mason

[NRH]

I think Lavi realized it -- albeit too late -- last season when they won 10 of their last 15.  Once he stopped trying to play defensemen in roles they could not fill (Coburn is not Matt Carle and cannot be, for example) and closed the gap between the forwards and defense, they got a lot better.  That's with a depleted D corps, too.  If they go with the same defensive scheme with their regular 6, they can make some noise and make the playoffs.  I have no doubts.  This team has a 2007-08 sort of "feel" to it.

 Minus the lockout and with 82 games I think that last years team could have probably made the play-offs too.

[murraycraven]

I think Lavi realized it -- albeit too late -- last season when they won 10 of their last 15.  Once he stopped trying to play defensemen in roles they could not fill (Coburn is not Matt Carle and cannot be, for example) and closed the gap between the forwards and defense, they got a lot better.  That's with a depleted D corps, too.  If they go with the same defensive scheme with their regular 6, they can make some noise and make the playoffs.  I have no doubts.  This team has a 2007-08 sort of "feel" to it.

 

 

Fly,

 

I agree... I know Lavy said he was trying to tweak the system but without much practice time it is hard to implement a system jumping into the season as fast as they did post lockout.  My hope is there is more of a team defensive system this year but we will have to see...   Most importantly is the defense staying healthy this year...

[radoran]

Fly,

 

I agree... I know Lavy said he was trying to tweak the system but without much practice time it is hard to implement a system jumping into the season as fast as they did post lockout.  My hope is there is more of a team defensive system this year but we will have to see...   Most importantly is the defense staying healthy this year...

 

Five teams from the 2012 playoffs didn't make the playoffs in 2013:

Florida, New Jersey, Phoenix, Nashville and the Flyers.

 

Florida was the fluke SE conference team; Nashville lost most of its scoring and arguably its best Dman; Phoenix is, well, Phoenix; The Devils have been due for a swoon.

 

And the Flyers. Who had the same coach, playing the same system with a team that was more experienced ("made the second round!"). They also named a new captain and claimed to have upgraded the defense.

 

What "time" did they not have that the Rags, Sens, Broons, Caps, Pens, Canucks, Kings, Blues, Shahks and Blackhawks did have?

 

An argument can be made that in an 82-game season they could have come back and made a run at the end.

 

If only those other 29 nefarious owners hadn't conspired to lose half a season of hockey just to stick it to the Flyers!

[NRH]

Five teams from the 2012 playoffs didn't make the playoffs in 2013:

Florida, New Jersey, Phoenix, Nashville and the Flyers.

 

Florida was the fluke SE conference team; Nashville lost most of its scoring and arguably its best Dman; Phoenix is, well, Phoenix; The Devils have been due for a swoon.

 

And the Flyers. Who had the same coach, playing the same system with a team that was more experienced ("made the second round!"). They also named a new captain and claimed to have upgraded the defense.

 

What "time" did they not have that the Rags, Sens, Broons, Caps, Pens, Canucks, Kings, Blues, Shahks and Blackhawks did have?

 

An argument can be made that in an 82-game season they could have come back and made a run at the end.

 

If only those other 29 nefarious owners hadn't conspired to lose half a season of hockey just to stick it to the Flyers!

 

 

Since it wont let me outside of your quote box.

 

Out of all those teams I'd say Florida wasn't as big a fluke as it would seem, they did have the best overall record in their division regardless of how.

 

But the point wasn't that the they didn't have the same disadvantage as the other aforementioned teams. Even though the most of those teams have had mostly the same lines the last 4 years.

 

Every year seems to be a re-tool year for the Flyers lately, you never see the same first line from year to year. One year its Carter and Richards the next its Jagr Giroux Hartnell the following year its Giroux Hartnell Vora

 

The defense is much the same way and the constant "goalie woes" don't help build continuity for a team.

 

But, they were slowly righting the ship late in the season, wasn't in Boucher that sent the team to the play-offs in 2010 on the final game of the season in a shoot-out and then Leighton that saved them again at the brink of elimination?

Edited August 28, 2013 by NarrowRoadHeros

[murraycraven]

Five teams from the 2012 playoffs didn't make the playoffs in 2013:

Florida, New Jersey, Phoenix, Nashville and the Flyers.

 

Florida was the fluke SE conference team; Nashville lost most of its scoring and arguably its best Dman; Phoenix is, well, Phoenix; The Devils have been due for a swoon.

 

And the Flyers. Who had the same coach, playing the same system with a team that was more experienced ("made the second round!"). They also named a new captain and claimed to have upgraded the defense.

 

What "time" did they not have that the Rags, Sens, Broons, Caps, Pens, Canucks, Kings, Blues, Shahks and Blackhawks did have?

 

An argument can be made that in an 82-game season they could have come back and made a run at the end.

 

If only those other 29 nefarious owners hadn't conspired to lose half a season of hockey just to stick it to the Flyers!

 

 

Dude, relax Rad...  breathe deep my friend... we are all in this together

 

Obviously they had similar time to prep as everyone else.  My point was that if you are installing a new system (which Lavy claims they were) it is tougher to learn a new system on the fly than learning it in camp/practice.   The Rags played the same system bcTorts only knows and coachs one way to play.  I am not providing excuses for Lavy or the Flyers here - honestly.  They did not deserve to make it into the playoffs and frankly they **** the bed most nights.  I put most of last years debacle on the players and also put a bit on the Coach as well.   Why would you change the system in a shortened lockout season?  It makes no sense to me...  realistically, it was Lavy trying to make an excuse for a terrible year.

 

If they do in fact tweak the system (this year) to play more team defense I think it is a good thing.  Do I believe it will happen?  Absolutely not...  I was going on the premise that Lavy claimed to try and tweak the system last year on the fly - which he publicly stated numerous times.   I can only go on face value of what was reported last year.

 

Is it going to solve everything?  No, but if they actually install a team defensive system it is a good start IMO.  Anything to help this defense out is only going to benefit the team.  

[radoran]

I don't mean to jump on you, but the fact that the vast majority of the "excuses/reasons" that there are for last season were almost entirely the fault of the very people entrusted to "fix it" bugs me. I'm tired of giving out passes, I guess. 

 

I fundamentally believe that the Flyers' "rebuilding" should be a 6-8 seed in the playoffs and that's been true for decades. So, when they don't, I see it as a bigger problem. Especially from a team that was supposedly "more experienced" from beating the favored Pens and getting to the second round for the second season in a row.

 

Laviolette has never played anything even resembling a "defensive system." He's always been about outscoring his opponents - and it's often "feast or famine". Even when he won the Cup, the Canes scored 3.75 GPG in the four they won (15-6). In three games they lost they were outscored 10-1.

 

Against the Pens two years ago, they won 36-30. Against the Devils? Outscored 18-11 - and lost 4-1.

 

I don't know what "tweaks" he could make that would change the fundamentals of his overall philosophy. Nor what "tweaks" he might just identified in his fourth year coaching the team - now a tenure longer than any coach since Shero.

 

And, again, he has won a Cup doing it.

 

Anybody want to bet the farm on that again?

 

Flyer hockey.

 

 

 

(you can tell I just "love" hockey cliches, eh?)

[NRH]

Cam Ward saved that Canes team though, Is Mason or Emery of that caliber of goalie Heroics?

[jammer2]

@  "Is Mason or Emery of that caliber of goalie Heroics?"

 

 Question of the year right there!  For me, Cam Ward numbers are slightly better than average, if the Emery and Mason combo can provide that, we will at least have some interesting games next spring. Just average goaltending might put us out of a playoff spot, I really think we need to excell there, not just survive.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Cam Ward got "Kate Upton" hot at the right time, Lavy rode him and they won a Cup together.  Awesome for them.

 

Ward has done jack diddly **** since then.  I am not discounting the Cup AT ALL...but to hold Ward up as the 2nd coming of Marty B, is flat out wrong.  He had one awesome run for 12 weeks, at the perfect time.  Since then, there are 15 goalies I would take over him--At least. 

[jammer2]

@DaGreatGazoo  I get what you are saying about Cam Ward, but I have in my top 10. Carolina is not close to the same team without him. I like Cam more than Miller, Pavelec, Lehtonen etc, the guys usually associated with being in and around the #10 spot for goalies. But then again, I think Holtby is better than all of them also, and probably a lot of guys would not agree with that. Cam is consistently in the top ten of GGA, SV% and time played when he is healthy. 

[radoran]

@  "Is Mason or Emery of that caliber of goalie Heroics?"

 

 Question of the year right there!  For me, Cam Ward numbers are slightly better than average, if the Emery and Mason combo can provide that, we will at least have some interesting games next spring. Just average goaltending might put us out of a playoff spot, I really think we need to excell there, not just survive.

 

They are "slightly better than average. He's a career 2.78/.910 goalie.

 

"Goof Ball" is a career 2.55/.913.

 

Ward has the only trophy that matters (and the Conn Smythe) and Carolina has a goalie they're going to have a hard time getting rid of and Philadelphia would have chewed up and spit out three years ago.

[jammer2]

@radoran  Yeah, just from playing fantasy hockey I figured Cam came in around the "slightly" better than average slot.

[radoran]

@radoran  Yeah, just from playing fantasy hockey I figured Cam came in around the "slightly" better than average slot.

 

Wow, was just looking back - Carolina had five defensemen who were making at least their second Finals appearance (two with their third) and a captain who was making his third as well.

 

Eight guys were still around from the 2002 team (Brindy, Wesley, Hedican, Wallin, K Adams, Cole, C Adams, Vasicek) and added vets Recchi, Commodore, Tverdovsky and Stillman who also had Finals experience. And those eight guys were in pretty important positions on both teams.

 

The Flyers, by comparison, have six guys still around from 2010 and two of them (Gagne, Emery) have gone and back again (Coburn, Hartnell, Giroux, Timonen - Emery wasn't really with the team by the Final). I didn't count Pronger.

[jammer2]

@radoran  Yeah, even with a goalie on a torrid hot streak, you usually do not go far without having guys who have been there and done that. I'm a big believer in learning (through experience) how to win. There is no replacement for the trials and tribulations of the Conference Finals and the SC Finals. You gotta get through it, then apply the knowledge you gained.

[NRH]

@radoran  Yeah, even with a goalie on a torrid hot streak, you usually do not go far without having guys who have been there and done that. I'm a big believer in learning (through experience) how to win. There is no replacement for the trials and tribulations of the Conference Finals and the SC Finals. You gotta get through it, then apply the knowledge you gained.

Cam is the last Rookie to win a cup isn't he?(goalie)

[jammer2]

@  Yeah, pretty sure he was the last rookie to win. Quite the accomplishment when you think about it. Before Cam I'm thinking it was Ken Dryden? I know Steve Penny made the finals in his rookie year, but did not win.

[NRH]

@  Yeah, pretty sure he was the last rookie to win. Quite the accomplishment when you think about it. Before Cam I'm thinking it was Ken Dryden? I know Steve Penny made the finals in his rookie year, but did not win.

Actually, now that I think about it, Niemi was a rookie was he not?

 

Before Cam was Roy and then Dryden in the 70s.

 

Hextall would have had a cup as a rookie as well if it wasn't for Wayne's Oilers.

Edited August 29, 2013 by NarrowRoadHeros

[jammer2]

@NRH  Ahhh, forgot all about Roy being a rookie, and yeah, it looks like Niemi was a rookie also, he only played in 3 games the season prior to the Cup run. Maybe it was because he was a 26 year old rookie I didn't process it correctly...lol.

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

 

 I hope so. It's pretty apparent by the best teams in hockey (Chicago, Boston, LA) that team D is what makes them tick...not the firewagon river hockey pickup game Lavy preaches.

[aziz]

@murraycraven

I hope so. It's pretty apparent by the best teams in hockey (Chicago, Boston, LA) that team D is what makes them tick...not the firewagon river hockey pickup game Lavy preaches.

and yet... the flyers gave up relatively few shots.

I think maybe too much can be made of laviolette's "firewagon" approach. I do think last season saw an alteration to how he coached the team. there was way less gap between forwards and D on the back check, and the dmen were far more decerning on the forecheck. 7th fewest shots against in the league doesn't happen accidentally.

IMO, death for the flyers last season was 6 games early when the offense was completely ineffective, and 34 games after that when they received worst-in-the-league goaltending (by sv%). I think to look for things beyond those two is to test for pneumonia when the corpse has a gunshot wound to the head and one leg missing. we can see why he's dead, no need to keep digging.

I think if the flyers go into next season with essentially the same approach, all will be well. 82 games is enough for any short offensive slump to work itself out... the only question is in goal. and there... i just have to believe.

[murraycraven]

Dude, relax Rad...  breathe deep my friend... we are all in this together

 

Obviously they had similar time to prep as everyone else.  My point was that if you are installing a new system (which Lavy claims they were) it is tougher to learn a new system on the fly than learning it in camp/practice.   The Rags played the same system bcTorts only knows and coachs one way to play.  I am not providing excuses for Lavy or the Flyers here - honestly.  They did not deserve to make it into the playoffs and frankly they **** the bed most nights.  I put most of last years debacle on the players and also put a bit on the Coach as well.   Why would you change the system in a shortened lockout season?  It makes no sense to me...  realistically, it was Lavy trying to make an excuse for a terrible year.

 

If they do in fact tweak the system (this year) to play more team defense I think it is a good thing.  Do I believe it will happen?  Absolutely not...  I was going on the premise that Lavy claimed to try and tweak the system last year on the fly - which he publicly stated numerous times.   I can only go on face value of what was reported last year.

 

Is it going to solve everything?  No, but if they actually install a team defensive system it is a good start IMO.  Anything to help this defense out is only going to benefit the team.  

  No worries Rad and no offense taken...

 

I agree about the excuses with this club.  There should be no more excuses and people should be held accountable for putting this club in the same situation year and year out.   Again, I was just stating what I hear from Lavy in interviews, and I agree, it was total BS. 

 

Hell, at least we have something to talk about right now.  Otherwise, it would be terribly boring

[radoran]

and yet... the flyers gave up relatively few shots.

I think maybe too much can be made of laviolette's "firewagon" approach. I do think last season saw an alteration to how he coached the team. there was way less gap between forwards and D on the back check, and the dmen were far more decerning on the forecheck. 7th fewest shots against in the league doesn't happen accidentally.

IMO, death for the flyers last season was 6 games early when the offense was completely ineffective, and 34 games after that when they received worst-in-the-league goaltending (by sv%). I think to look for things beyond those two is to test for pneumonia when the corpse has a gunshot wound to the head and one leg missing. we can see why he's dead, no need to keep digging.

I think if the flyers go into next season with essentially the same approach, all will be well. 82 games is enough for any short offensive slump to work itself out... the only question is in goal. and there... i just have to believe.

 

Unless I'm reading the stats wrong (Yahoo's "Opp Team Stats") - http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/stats/byteam?cat=oppteamstats&conference=NHL&year=season_2012&cut_type=0&sort=423

 

The Flyers were 12th in the league in shots against. Boston had two more shots on goal against than the Flyers did last year.

 

The major difference was the .923 SV% for da Broons vs. .899 for the Flyers.

 

LA gave up 173 shots less (3.6 per game) and Chicago gave up 73 less (1.5 per game). Again, the difference was a .923 SV% for the Blackhawks. LA's rather middling .905 might be a solid reason they didn't repeat.

 

Regardless, I'm not so sure than an extra 3.6 or 1.5 shots per game makes all that much difference. It's also where the shots come from and whether or not the team is forcing the shots they want instead of giving up the shots the other team wants. That's on the team "system."

 

As you note, if the offense had taken advantage of Bryz's actually not bad play in the first six games, the next 34 after that don't really matter (adding up the 40 games, that next 34 would also include Mason's first two... which he lost.). So, paradoxically, the problem was not scoring enough at that point.

 

I expect this team to make the playoffs. I expected it last year. There's no excuse for the way this team spends and operates for their "down years" to not be a 6-8 seed.

 

That said, there's also little evidence that their approach will lead to a Cup.

 

We just have to believe.

[aziz]

@radoran

right, 12th in shots against. sorry, not sure where I got 7th from. still, not like the team was getting shelled. while you're right, shot totals don't have anything to say about the specifics of the shots against, one would expect an actually poor defense team to give up a ton. like buffalo or Edmonton or Washington. upper have of the league says opponents only got but so many looks per game, and the doesn't track with the narrative of a completely porous defense.

as for little evidence that their approach will lead to a cup... what would count as evidence outside of having actually won a cup? I mean, obviously there is evidence that Boston's and LA's and Chicago 's approach can win cups. anyone else? Detroit and Pittsburgh are different enough, roster-wise, from their cup teams... is there evidence they can win? I'd say St Louis will be an interesting team for the next few years, but I don't know there is evidence supporting them, exactly.

[radoran]

as for little evidence that their approach will lead to a cup... what would count as evidence outside of having actually won a cup? I mean, obviously there is evidence that Boston's and LA's and Chicago 's approach can win cups. anyone else? Detroit and Pittsburgh are different enough, roster-wise, from their cup teams... is there evidence they can win? I'd say St Louis will be an interesting team for the next few years, but I don't know there is evidence supporting them, exactly.

 

By "approach" there is "build a solid core and add experienced NHL vets" a la Carolina in 05-06, when they had eight guys from their 2002 team and added four more with Finals experience - nearly half the roster (and five of six defensemen) had Finals experience.

 

One might say that LA, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Chicago and Boston all took similar approaches - adding pieces to an established core without fundamentally changing that core.

 

Seems like a pretty time tested, solid approach.

 

I'm looking for the one where the lineup basically turns over every 2-4 years and the experienced guys who helped take you to a Finals you then trade away for younger, less playoff-tested guys - the one where that strategy wins.

 

Hoping it does, obviously... Flyers have six guys from their last Finals appearance, while two of them (Gagne, Emery) have gone and come since then (and Emery wasn't even on the team in the Final). That leaves Giroux, Hartnell, Timonen and Coburn.

 

Hope springs eternal.

[jammer2]

@radoran  WAAAAAITTTTT a damn minute here, you mean you *can't* win the cup by changing 1/3 of your roster each and every year....who woulda thunk it!?!?!