Jedi SanFilippo: This is not the goaltending problem you are looking for

[aziz]

while i'm doing memory lane

Lindros hitting ulf Samuelsson as a penguin. and bonus: tommy soderstrom in net. with his big egg helmet.

[sarsippius]

@doom88

well, since you asked

crappy quality, crappy music, but......it's hexy. not the best goalie ever, but damnit it he was fun to watch. no one has ever cared about their job like he did, ever.

Exactly why he's my favorite Philly athlete ever (well, tied with #16 anyway). Gave everything he had, every time, and he wore it on his sleeve.

[ruxpin]

Lastly, I'm not going to debate the Cechmanek thing again

You had to know that simply mentioning his name was going to inspire debate. Right? I know commenting is probably the same as debating but here goes anyway: I'll acknowledge the point you're making but just say I really disliked Cechmanek. I'll begrudgingly agree he wasn't necessarily the problem on those teams in terms of play but he wasn't exactly the answer either.

I do agree with you--unsurprisingly--that Flyers fans have become conditioned to ultimately hate their goalies. I'm not sure which came first, the chicken or the egg (bad goalie play or goalie hate), but it is at this point a self-perpetuating condition. I've said it before and I'll say it again since it's again relevant: If Bryzgalov is bought out this summer, by November or maybe December Mason will be the most hated man in Philly not playing quarterback for the Eagles. If Bryz is NOT bought out and Mason is considered to be the back up, we'll all give Mason the keys to the city by December.

[ruxpin]

Cechmanek wasn't the problem, nor was Bob. I didn't mind Boosh either. That's about it though, not good.

We remember him for ultimately flaking out, but Esche was very good for stretches too. I think you and radoran probably have a more even-keeled perception.

While we haven't had a Brodeur or a Roy, with the glaring exception of 2010 we had goaltending sufficient to do good things if it wasn't for the fact the team they were behind wasn't ultimately fundamentally flawed in some other way or simply ran into a team that was better over seven games (Detroit 1997). We didn't lose to the Devils in the Stevens/Lindros series because of goaltending--Brodeur notwithstanding. We didn't lose to Tampa because of goaltending. We didn't lose to Buffalo because of goaltending (yes, the other goalie was very good but that team was an example of being otherwise fundamentally flawed).

I haven't been a real huge fan of our goalies and have usually thought we could do better. You want your goalie to "be able to steal games" when you know on some level that the rest of the team just isn't going to be able to win otherwise. But with very rare exceptions (2010), it really hasn't solely been on the goalies. I keep throwing 2010 at the goalies but the reality is that despite the circus that was our goaltending those playoffs, there were several games we don't win if the goalies hadn't played above their heads.

[doom88]

I'm going to say goalie poor play came first, relatively anyway. Fans compare to what they have seen, Parent for some, Pelle for others. Hexy is loved for his passion, which is always going to be a fan favorite: also see Lappy and Rinaldo. Truth is, subsequent goalies haven't met the benchmarks. At that point though, many seem to jump to 'that guy sucks', instead of 'he's alright'.

Goalies who actually suck: Bryzaster, Michael *****g Leighton

Goalies who were alright: Cechmanek, Bob, Boosh, Emery

Just my opinion, as usual.

[canoli]

well if Flyers' fans have been "conditioned to hate goalies" the reason is because 90% of them have been reject retreads or verging on retirement when we picked them up. A team that buys the services of Jeff Hackett is simply not serious about the position, likewise Biron, or Beezer after too many years, Esche....who I liked enough but was obviously not a very talented goalie...well it's a long list. A few notable exceptions can't pretty-up the picture of ~40 years of barely-legit-NHL goaltenders as Flyers #1s.

I don't know about Mason becoming hated if he's our #1 this year - as Rux seems to imply it'll be automatic, regardless how he plays. If he stinks he'll get the razz, if he's good he won't. What's so hard to understand?

Hell I'd say in recent years it's been just the opposite, people have supported obviously crap goalies for no other reason than they were/are our #1 guy. Christ look at the excuses people make for Bryzgalov - still! If we polled this board and asked "Who was the worst Flyer this year?" it would not be unanamous - Bryzgalov is seen by a lot of you as "not the problem," which boggles my mind.

We all know it's a team sport and no one man is responsible for a loss or a win, but let's face facts here somewhat. Leighton melted down when the Final began. Bryzgalov has always sucked. When we finally do get somebody with talent, youth, great attitude...everything that makes a winner - we kick him to the curb in favor of a "name." So if anyone is responsible for Flyers' fans turning on their goalies look no further than the Flyers themselves!

[ruxpin]

@canoli

Actually, Biron is a fairly good example of what I'm talking about. People were almost unanimously happy about getting him. He is a case where people actually turned on him before the true suckage started. And he never sucked as bad as people tried to make out. He wasn't the second coming of a porsche driver so he was turned on.

The thing is that even while he was here he was adequate. The team in front of him wasn't, however.

I do agree that there are people that will defend some of these goalies, but even 33% of this country will support a tea party candidates. So there's moron outliers on every subject. Like you pointed out, you have people who watch the last two years with Bryz and say "he's not the problem" with a straight face. Empty face, but a straight one.

My prediction requires that Bryz be bought out but if he his take a handful of cash--doesn't have to be alot since this is an experiment--and find someone and bet them the town (Philly) in general will HATE Mason by January 1. I think it will be before then, but it buys you some time just in case. You can buy me a six pack with part of your winnings.

[radoran]

So if anyone is responsible for Flyers' fans turning on their goalies look no further than the Flyers themselves!

Don't worry. They'll get it right next time...

[OccamsRazor]

not the best goalie ever, but damnit it he was fun to watch

Till 1997!!!!!!!

Made me nauseous!!!!!!

[canoli]

Actually, Biron is a fairly good example of what I'm talking about. People were almost unanimously happy about getting him.

I was one of the hopeful ones about Biron at first but that was only because I didn't know enough about him. I "turned on him" once I realized how many chances he'd already had in Buff to be a #1. I guess I directed my anger at the wrong person: I should've never expected Biron could carry a team. But the Flyers....what's their excuse for not knowing? Actually I'm sure they knew, they just cheaped out on the goalie position - once again.

I can't blame Flyers' fans for being jaded about goaltending; the Flyers brass set the tone and it basically boils down to 1 of 2 things: it's either "Eh, good enough" or else it's "now this guy he's the REAL DEAL, he's going to change everything." I suppose the "real deal" thing only applies to Bryzgalov lately, but Beezer was given that treatment too. And of course Hextall. Otherwise it's been one long parade of "eh, good enough."

[doom88]

I hated Biron, but I also never wanted him in the first place too. I didn't like him in Buffalo at all, and was hoping Briere would fail at recruiting.

[ruxpin]

I was one of the hopeful ones about Biron at first but that was only because I didn't know enough about him. I "turned on him" once I realized how many chances he'd already had in Buff to be a #1. I guess I directed my anger at the wrong person: I should've never expected Biron could carry a team. But the Flyers....what's their excuse for not knowing? Actually I'm sure they knew, they just cheaped out on the goalie position - once again.

I can't blame Flyers' fans for being jaded about goaltending; the Flyers brass set the tone and it basically boils down to 1 of 2 things: it's either "Eh, good enough" or else it's "now this guy he's the REAL DEAL, he's going to change everything." I suppose the "real deal" thing only applies to Bryzgalov lately, but Beezer was given that treatment too. And of course Hextall. Otherwise it's been one long parade of "eh, good enough."

I think we agree on all of that. The parts we don't seem quite square on are probably just shades of nuance, because in your recounting of it I can't disagree on a single point.

[ruxpin]

I hated Biron, but I also never wanted him in the first place too. I didn't like him in Buffalo at all, and was hoping Briere would fail at recruiting.

I didn't know enough about him to have had anything that could be called an "educated" opinion on him in Buffalo. I liked him in Buffalo but in retrospect, he's probably exactly the kind of guy you want as your dependable 15-25 game backup or who could step up and fill-in for a stretch if your starter goes down for a period of time. I thought if we put enough in front of him he would be enough. And because of WHEN we got him, "enough" meant playoffs not Cup (for me).

It was too much, I guess, to ask him to come in as a starter--no matter how much he wanted to be one--and especially in a town like Philly. His GAA wasn't that great either year here, but his SV% was actually respectable (I would not say spectacular). I think it's fair to say that he was a stop-gap, but he did okay for that ("eh, good enough").

I think maybe the problem is that the fan base in general--obviously a large minority of exceptions on each individual case--has expectation that are too high coming in. Some of that is created by the ownership/front office. I mean, Biron was something like a $2M goalie or something? And a career backup. And the front office tried to sell him --and many drank from the Kool Aide gleefully---as some great thing. Same with Beezer. Same with others. Arguably with Bryz but his $$$ puts him in a different category. And then when it turns out that they play exactly as they reasonably should have been expected to, they're run out.

[radoran]

Biron played in 72 games in one season for Buffalo and put up 2.22/.915

He followed that up with back to back 50+ appearance seasons averaging just over 2.5/.910

He gave way to Ryan Miller, widely regarded at the time as the best goalie in the United States.

His worst sv% as a full time starter in Philadelphia was .915

Maybe it wasn't just the goalie.

[ruxpin]

Biron played in 72 games in one season for Buffalo and put up 2.22/.915

He followed that up with back to back 50+ appearance seasons averaging just over 2.5/.910

He gave way to Ryan Miller, widely regarded at the time as the best goalie in the United States.

His worst sv% as a full time starter in Philadelphia was .915

Maybe it wasn't just the goalie.

Stats don't mean anything, rad. What about that other game against New Jersey or the one against the Senators when he allowed some goals. He was horrible. How can you give him a pass and not like Vandermeer?

[canoli]

haha - ya. "what about that time....?"

classic!