If Pens lose series..Is Blysma fired?

[DaGreatGazoo]

I think the Rangers screwed up the Rangers. They had a squad that got to the ECFs and they did some major surgery to it so they could bring in Rick Nash (who has never won anything).

I don't see how you blame it all on Tortorella. I was very surprised they fired him. Happy, even.

Lost the true blue-collar guys in Prust and Dubinski. Those loses can't be over-stated to that team.

[nossagog]

Torts behind the Pens bench. Hummm, no,no,no,no,no,no,no, wait let me count, that was 7, no,no,NO. Torts took what I thought was a team with talent and tried to make it into the New Jersey Devils. Bore them to death, and hope your score while they are asleep. That plus I could not stand his pouting face every time a penalty is called against his team.

[ruxpin]

Did you really have an issue when he brought these guys in? I don't recall anyone...forum, media, fans...saying Shero blew this one by adding these guys. If the team Shero put together was not a heavy favorite, being down 0-2 is what should be expected then, right?

I think this is correct. You said it at 0-2 and it's now 0-3, but it's still correct.

Look, the Flyers went into the 1997 SCF as similar favorites. It was extremely painful to go through. It wasn't that the GM put together a team that wasn't very very good. And the coach really didn't mis-coach. The team just for whatever reason was missing an ingredient to beat a clearly better Detroit team that showed up. If it wasn't readily apparent then, history will show that Detroit team ended up being pretty damn good.

And the Flyers' GM didn't lose his job. I don't remember there being any discussion. And if Terry Murray doesn't use the "choke" phrase to the national media, he probably keeps his job as well. Because I don't think he lost that room until he said that.

So, the talk about Shero is kind of silly, IMO. The Pens had a very good team and he went and added to it with very good players without really losing anything. It's true the coach then has to gel them together, but he did lose what precious little time he had when his precious little captain got hurt (had to). Not Crosby's fault--clearly--sometimes fate just rears its head. So they went ino the playoffs with very little time to blend three substantial acquisitions to an already very good team. And it's not really Pepto Bylsma's fault that his #1 goalie flaked out. Could you see it coming? Yeah, probably. But he still has to go with him to start the playoffs based on the regular season. And he made the gutsy--but necessary--call to switch to the backup. All good.

Yeah, I don't hang either Shero or Bylsma just because things didn't go as planned.

If anyone wants to blame someone, blame the Bruins. They are a very good team that is actually probably over-performing right now even for being a very good team. Sometimes the Cup is about having a very good team AND simply having fate on your side.

[ruxpin]

That plus I could not stand his pouting face every time a penalty is called against his team

Yeah, but penalties don't get called against the Pens so it should all be good, right? That's what I heard anyway.

[ruxpin]

I think that chemistry is a valid point, but this IS the Eastern Conference Finals. Very Odd place for it to suddenly rear its ugly head.

I actually think it's possible that it reared its ugly head in the first round. It's just there wasn't enough talent on either opponent in the first two rounds for it be fatal. It made for a couple ugly losses in round one, though. And Ottawa was only there because they drew Montreal--possibly the worst playoff team in recent memory.

Just saying it's possibly that in the first two rounds they were able to win on talent without chemistry. When it came to the final four and playing against teams with the talent level to take advantage of the chemistry thing, it proved fatal.

I'm not sure I completely support this argument, just kind of throwing it out there as possible.

[nossagog]

Yeah, but penalties don't get called against the Pens so it should all be good, right? That's what I heard anyway.

That's what people keep telling us.

[ruxpin]

But you must admit he screwed up the Rangers this year.

You know what? Not just this year. I have to agree with you on this one because I really think even getting to only the ECF was under-performance and probably due to Torts getting in the way. On paper--and I know the argument about paper--they have been a better team (a VERY better team) than their results have shown. They have squandered very good goalie seasons and have had very good players suddenly turn "eh" under Torts.

I don't like Glenn Sather. I think he's a putz. But I think he's had some decent teams put together. Just the wrong coach.

[B21]

I think this is correct. You said it at 0-2 and it's now 0-3, but it's still correct.

Look, the Flyers went into the 1997 SCF as similar favorites. It was extremely painful to go through. It wasn't that the GM put together a team that wasn't very very good. And the coach really didn't mis-coach. The team just for whatever reason was missing an ingredient to beat a clearly better Detroit team that showed up. If it wasn't readily apparent then, history will show that Detroit team ended up being pretty damn good.

And the Flyers' GM didn't lose his job. I don't remember there being any discussion. And if Terry Murray doesn't use the "choke" phrase to the national media, he probably keeps his job as well. Because I don't think he lost that room until he said that.

So, the talk about Shero is kind of silly, IMO. The Pens had a very good team and he went and added to it with very good players without really losing anything. It's true the coach then has to gel them together, but he did lose what precious little time he had when his precious little captain got hurt (had to). Not Crosby's fault--clearly--sometimes fate just rears its head. So they went ino the playoffs with very little time to blend three substantial acquisitions to an already very good team. And it's not really Pepto Bylsma's fault that his #1 goalie flaked out. Could you see it coming? Yeah, probably. But he still has to go with him to start the playoffs based on the regular season. And he made the gutsy--but necessary--call to switch to the backup. All good.

Yeah, I don't hang either Shero or Bylsma just because things didn't go as planned.

If anyone wants to blame someone, blame the Bruins. They are a very good team that is actually probably over-performing right now even for being a very good team. Sometimes the Cup is about having a very good team AND simply having fate on your side.

Rux,

I agree with most of what you said. I don't want to dismiss checmistry but I do think there was enough time for whatever chemistry was needed to develop for this Broons series. Add to that, even lines and defense pairings not affected by these aquisitions are struggling. Perfect example....on the ice when Crosby's turnover led to Marchand's goal 0:23 in....Crosby, Kunitz, Dupuis, Letang, Niskanen (I think). I just think that by this point, it's not the chemistry. Crosby's line especially....still in tact.

I don't blame the goalie situation on anyone. In fact, I see that as a feather in Shero's caps. No coach is going to make the Fleury situation better. But Shero was smart enough to see that a Fleury flame out was possible so he gets an experienced back-up in Vokoun. Probably....no, did....save the Pens in the Isles series.

Agree 100% on the Bruins. Have to give them credit. Pens played their best game on the playoffs in Game 3....and still lost.

[ruxpin]

I don't blame the goalie situation on anyone. In fact, I see that as a feather in Shero's caps. No coach is going to make the Fleury situation better. But Shero was smart enough to see that a Fleury flame out was possible so he gets an experienced back-up in Vokoun. Probably....no, did....save the Pens in the Isles series.

Agree 100% Absolutely was very good GMing by Shero in getting Vokoun. Another lesser GM might have signed Michael Leighton (although at the moment I can't come up with an example of a GM criminally stupid enough to do that). And the coach was smart enough to play the card he had.

I also agree that the chemistry thing is overblown but also think it shouldn't be overlooked either. Goalie aside, something has not quite clicked the whole playoffs. The Pens clearly are good enough to beat most teams in the league even when not clicking on all cylinders. But they've run into a very good team that is playing better than they (the Bruins) are.

I'm glad I didn't bet on this series because I would have lost a heap of money.

[brelic]

So, the talk about Shero is kind of silly, IMO. The Pens had a very good team and he went and added to it with very good players without really losing anything.

I am being facetious about firing Shero. I was just trying to say that if anyone is to blame, you might want to look at Shero *before* Bylsma. The team was 2nd overall in the NHL, 1st in the conference before those moves. Why were they made?

Yes, Shero brought in all-star players, former captains. But was there any evidence that it was needed? Was there some big hole that really needed to be filled? Or did Shero just make trades because, well, that's what people do at the deadline. The illusion that one big piece (three, in this case) will put the team over the top.

But this Penguins team looks like the parts are larger than the whole. And Boston looks precisely the other way around.

And, at the end of the day, the playoffs almost always come down to the team with better goaltending. And that is clearly Boston.

So maybe neither Shero nor Bylsma are to blame.

The one year that the we got to face a team with shi**y goaltending for the SCF, ours was worse!

[nossagog]

Through his whole career, Fleury's play has been like a light switch, its either totally on or totally off. I've never been a fan from day one. I think his days are done in Pittsburgh. Get a bag of pucks for him and dump the salary.

Personally, the "Its the chemistry" argument doesn't wash with me. Didn't see much of game two, but the Pens ARE getting their chances, they are just not getting them in the net. Rask is the big reason for it. He has played such a solid series, constantly in the correct position, that he's making the saves look easy. Neal and Iginla are getting the same one time chances as that have been scoring on in the past, but with Rask's quick feet, he's always in position and it hits him in the chest.

I'm not totally depressed about the way that they are playing, they are playing the quick paced game that they are known for. Defensively the B's have just been outstanding.

[ruxpin]

I am being facetious about firing Shero

Oh, I know. I understood the context you were saying it. It made sense. Ultimately, I read it as you arguing that neither should be fired but--to you (and I agree)--Bylsma should be SO safe that even a safe GM should go before him.

[B21]

I am being facetious about firing Shero. I was just trying to say that if anyone is to blame, you might want to look at Shero *before* Bylsma. The team was 2nd overall in the NHL, 1st in the conference before those moves. Why were they made?

Yes, Shero brought in all-star players, former captains. But was there any evidence that it was needed? Was there some big hole that really needed to be filled? Or did Shero just make trades because, well, that's what people do at the deadline. The illusion that one big piece (three, in this case) will put the team over the top.

But this Penguins team looks like the parts are larger than the whole. And Boston looks precisely the other way around.

And, at the end of the day, the playoffs almost always come down to the team with better goaltending. And that is clearly Boston.

So maybe neither Shero nor Bylsma are to blame.

The one year that the we got to face a team with shi**y goaltending for the SCF, ours was worse!

That's fair. I do think Morrow, Murray and Iginla were upgrades over who they replaced and, give the cost (or lack of) I don't blame Shero for the moves.

I'm still in the "fire Bylsma" camp (might be the only one). It's not losing...it's how they are losing.

[brelic]

That's fair. I do think Morrow, Murray and Iginla were upgrades over who they replaced and, give the cost (or lack of) I don't blame Shero for the moves.

I'm still in the "fire Bylsma" camp (might be the only one). It's not losing...it's how they are losing.

Absolutely! Those three guys are clear upgrades over those they replaced. And you can't blame him for the cost.

But is it a grass is greener mentality? Rick Nash is clearly an upgrade over Dubinsky and Prust... but are the Rangers better for it? Maybe it's not a valid comparison, but the point is the same. The Rangers were a strong(er) team *before* the Nash move... so why did they do it?

I would still be surprised to see Bylsma fired, but yeah, if the Pens want to shake things up, that's the obvious choice.

What about Fleury? Do you keep him for a few more years until his contract expires? Or do you try to move him? He might fetch a decent return... of course, provided you guys have a viable option in goal.

[nossagog]

That's fair. I do think Morrow, Murray and Iginla were upgrades over who they replaced and, give the cost (or lack of) I don't blame Shero for the moves.

I'm still in the "fire Bylsma" camp (might be the only one). It's not losing...it's how they are losing.

See for me, I liked the Murray trade, because it fit a need in a big defensive defenseman. I won't argue against the Iginla trade either, I think that was a good move and solidified a merry go round as the sixth top forward. But I still would rather have seen Beau playing instead of Morrow, that's the only one I disliked.

[nossagog]

What about Fleury? Do you keep him for a few more years until his contract expires? Or do you try to move him? He might fetch a decent return... of course, provided you guys have a viable option in goal.

I'm in the "drop him like a hot potato" camp. Really, save the $5M cap hit with a reasonable replacement. His game is just too inconsistent, and has always been. Get what you can, even if you do not get full market value, and move on. If they lose this round(pretty good chance), I think that Shero and Mario may rethink the way that they built the team, and some big moves may occur. They've become a great regular season team, but its the cup that's the goal.

[B21]

Absolutely! Those three guys are clear upgrades over those they replaced. And you can't blame him for the cost.

But is it a grass is greener mentality? Rick Nash is clearly an upgrade over Dubinsky and Prust... but are the Rangers better for it? Maybe it's not a valid comparison, but the point is the same. The Rangers were a strong(er) team *before* the Nash move... so why did they do it?

I would still be surprised to see Bylsma fired, but yeah, if the Pens want to shake things up, that's the obvious choice.

What about Fleury? Do you keep him for a few more years until his contract expires? Or do you try to move him? He might fetch a decent return... of course, provided you guys have a viable option in goal.

I think the Fleury ship has sailed. I'd trade (not expecting fair value in return) or buy out. Vokoun is your starter next year. Bring in the best back up you can for a 60/30 split or groom Zatkoff or Hartzell w/ Vokoun (almost certainly Zatkoff who would be replaced in WBS by Hartzell). That cap space may help you keep Malkin and Letang assuming Letang does not want Karlsson money (7MM+).

[B21]

See for me, I liked the Murray trade, because it fit a need in a big defensive defenseman. I won't argue against the Iginla trade either, I think that was a good move and solidified a merry go round as the sixth top forward. But I still would rather have seen Beau playing instead of Morrow, that's the only one I disliked.

Another thing about Bylsma that annoys me...doesn't trust rookies. See: Depres, Simon as well as Bennett, Beau.

Both HAVE to step into regular roles next year.

[radoran]

I think the Fleury ship has sailed. I'd trade (not expecting fair value in return) or buy out. Vokoun is your starter next year. Bring in the best back up you can for a 60/30 split or groom Zatkoff or Hartzell w/ Vokoun (almost certainly Zatkoff who would be replaced in WBS by Hartzell). That cap space may help you keep Malkin and Letang assuming Letang does not want Karlsson money (7MM+).

I really wonder some times if Malkin wants to stay in PIT. Purely spitballing here, but he was the Conn Smythe winner for the Cup run, he's got the Hart, Art Ross, etc. trophies.

And it's still always "Sid's team."

He'll get a top dollar offer from someone and if it is a genuine competitor, I think he might take it.

Of course, now he'll extend for $2M per

[B21]

I really wonder some times if Malkin wants to stay in PIT. Purely spitballing here, but he was the Conn Smythe winner for the Cup run, he's got the Hart, Art Ross, etc. trophies.

And it's still always "Sid's team."

He'll get a top dollar offer from someone and if it is a genuine competitor, I think he might take it.

Of course, now he'll extend for $2M per

That's more than a spitball. It's a real possibility. No hard feelings here if that is how he feels...it's the same as Staal without the brother connection. He's not getting more than $8.7 million in Pittsburgh. Just ain't happenin'. However, with a $70 million cap, $8.7 million is below market value for Crosby and Malkin. With a $63 million cap, I think $8.7 million is market value for Crosby and Malkin. Might mean less teams willing to pony up $9 million plus but all it takes is 1. There are plenty of teams that will still have boatloads of caps space and the need for a big name to draw fans.

I will say this (not a guarantee but 99.5% sure it would play out this way)....if he wants more than $8.7 million, he will not be a Penguin by the time the 13-14 season starts.

[nossagog]

I really wonder some times if Malkin wants to stay in PIT. Purely spitballing here, but he was the Conn Smythe winner for the Cup run, he's got the Hart, Art Ross, etc. trophies.

And it's still always "Sid's team."

He'll get a top dollar offer from someone and if it is a genuine competitor, I think he might take it.

Of course, now he'll extend for $2M per

NFN but I think he would like to stay in Pittsburgh partly BECAUSE its Sid's team. Malkin is still very uncomfortable talking to the media and such, Sid protects him from this. Money wise, its hard to say with players, you would think that $8.7 would be enough.

That being said, I would be sad to see him go, but not devastated. I think too much finesse may not be a great thing.

[ruxpin]

I think the Fleury ship has sailed. I'd trade (not expecting fair value in return) or buy out. Vokoun is your starter next year. Bring in the best back up you can for a 60/30 split or groom Zatkoff or Hartzell w/ Vokoun (almost certainly Zatkoff who would be replaced in WBS by Hartzell). That cap space may help you keep Malkin and Letang assuming Letang does not want Karlsson money (7MM+).

You could always trade him to the NYI. It's been a week or two since Snow traded for a goalie.

[radoran]

Fleury - modified NTC. Can provide a list of teams he would accept trades to

I'm thinking:

Philadelphia

New Jersey

New York Rangers

Boston

Vancouver

Los Angeles

Montreal

Detroit

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

Fleury in philly....could you imagine him trying to handle the pressure?

[mojo1917]

@radoran

Fleury in philly....could you imagine him trying to handle the pressure?

yes.

that guy is stil pretty young, he has the tools physically, if he can get his mind right he'll be at worst second tier if not elite but certainly good enough to backstop a championship team again.

I think he needs a different coach , or change of scenery , but something needs to change with the way he's preparing. heck i'd even say maybe he just needs to go to the eye doctor.

it doesn't help him that the team in front of him doesn't help him all that much when the puck is in their zone either. I would really be hesitant to sell low on him or buy him out, I think he'll turn it around.