Ok, so down 2-0, what do YOU do?

[nossagog]

_{Are you talking the crosscheck where Sid lost the tops of his teeth and that Moron Hitchcock it making diving motions on the bench like Crosby's trying to draw a penalty?}

Edited June 7, 2013 by nossagog

[radoran]

@radoran

You can say never, but there are countless teams in history, many of them Cup winners, who freely admit "we just weren't ready to play" and similar comments after bad starts to series'.

There's a difference between "ready to play" and "expecting to flow" - the latter seems to indicate that one is ready to play, but that one expects it to come; the former means that the team wasn't ready.

I can't think of a Cup winner in recent memory that wasn't "ready to play" in the Conference Final that went on to win the Cup. Happy to learn

[mojo1917]

@nossagog

with regard to Rask and Crosby,

This cannot be considered a shining example of Sid's leadership skills, that behavoir isn't what his team needs from him, ever.

He is essentially throwing gasoline on a fire in that situation, adding to the negative emotion rather than rounding his boys up to get into the locker room and talk about winning the game.

That whole situation between him and Rask did nothing to help his team.

It was not good leadership.

I posted more thoughts about this in this thead .

[nossagog]

@nossagog

with regard to Rask and Crosby,

This cannot be considered a shining example of Sid's leadership skills, that behavoir isn't what his team needs from him, ever.

He is essentially throwing gasoline on a fire in that situation, adding to the negative emotion rather than rounding his boys up to get into the locker room and talk about winning the game.

That whole situation between him and Rask did nothing to help his team.

It was not good leadership.

I posted more thoughts about this in this thead .

http://www.hockeyfor...-1/page__st__15

Yes, and he had breakfast that morning, that didn't help his team either, so what. And you seem to make it some big deal, it's not. He bumped Rask, Rask hooked him, we went back and pushed Rask, they had words and skated on. Total duration, what, 8 seconds? Maybe 10?

If you want to say that he's not living up to his abilities on the ice, and not putting up points, I'm all in agreement there. But to make the Rask thing some kind of statement of his leadership? I'm sorry, that's a hugh overreach to me..

[mojo1917]

@nossagog

I disagree, i think as long as he behaves like that the teams he captains will win diddly/pooh.

the Flyers did it to him last year, he did it to himself this year when the going got tough vs the broons.

When the leader is more interested in being tough than playing hockey that sets the tone for the rest of the guys int the room.

I think this type of behavior from him will continue to decrease the window for championships for your team.

[radoran]

@nossagog

I disagree, i think as long as he behaves like that the teams he captains will win diddly/pooh.

the Flyers did it to him last year, he did it to himself this year when the going got tough vs the broons.

When the leader is more interested in being tough than playing hockey that sets the tone for the rest of the guys int the room.

I think this type of behavior from him will continue to decrease the window for championships for your team.

Compare his demeanor to a Toews or a Tavares (staying in the same age range).

IMO, Sid lets things get to him too easily, that takes him off his game and the rest of the team frequently follows his example.

[nossagog]

Compare his demeanor to a Toews or a Tavares (staying in the same age range).

IMO, Sid lets things get to him too easily, that takes him off his game and the rest of the team frequently follows his example.

Wow, you sure you want to use Jonathan Toews? Have you watched him flop and complain the past two series? I'd pick someone else there.

@nossagog

I disagree, i think as long as he behaves like that the teams he captains will win diddly/pooh.

the Flyers did it to him last year, he did it to himself this year when the going got tough vs the broons.

When the leader is more interested in being tough than playing hockey that sets the tone for the rest of the guys int the room.

I think this type of behavior from him will continue to decrease the window for championships for your team.

The thing we disagree on is whether or not the Rask thing is even an issue. You look at it as a childish act, to me it isn't even worth mention.

[mojo1917]

I dunno @nossagog. Zetterberg did Towes pretty raw in that series...and Towes did get it together with the help of his coach, but to your point, Crosby has gotten it together since game two ended.

[radoran]

Wow, you sure you want to use Jonathan Toews? Have you watched him flop and complain the past two series? I'd pick someone else there.

I'm going with overall body of work rather than one year. I've argued Crosby's leadership problems cost them last year's Flyers series and now here we are again flopping in the ECFs after what just about anyone would describe as the easiest path of any of the Final Four.

And I did pick someone else. Tavares. Who has labored on the freaking Islanders and still held composure through a hard fought seven gamer against a heavily favored Pens squad.

That said, I haven't watched every minute of every Chicago series, but I've watched more than a few games and haven't noticed Toews' "excesses" putting his Blackhawks down 3-0 in the WCFs.

[nossagog]

I dunno @nossagog. Zetterberg did Towes pretty raw in that series...and Towes did get it together with the help of his coach, but to your point, Crosby has gotten it together since game two ended.

Sure, but the point is that he couldn't handle it. Look at how may penalties he took, and how many times he went down grabbing his face. He's doing exactly what every one complains that Crosby does.

[nossagog]

I'm going with overall body of work rather than one year. I've argued Crosby's leadership problems cost them last year's Flyers series and now here we are again flopping in the ECFs after what just about anyone would describe as the easiest path of any of the Final Four.

And I did pick someone else. Tavares. Who has labored on the freaking Islanders and still held composure through a hard fought seven gamer against a heavily favored Pens squad.

That said, I haven't watched every minute of every Chicago series, but I've watched more than a few games and haven't noticed Toews' "excesses" putting his Blackhawks down 3-0 in the WCFs.

So what "excess" has Crosby done that has helped put them down 3-0. Has he taken any silly retaliatory penalties? Has he taken himself out of plays that cost goals to hit someone no matter the cost? Has he flopped to the ice trying to take a penalty that cost the team? Give an example please where Crosby has "cost" the team.

[Polaris922]

There's a difference between "ready to play" and "expecting to flow" - the latter seems to indicate that one is ready to play, but that one expects it to come; the former means that the team wasn't ready.

I can't think of a Cup winner in recent memory that wasn't "ready to play" in the Conference Final that went on to win the Cup. Happy to learn

The Penguins in 2009 were the most recent Cup winners that come to mind, your own Flyers said the same thing before taking 4 in a row from Boston to move on, Pens coming back against Washington in '09.. Those are three series I can remember. History has a lot if 2-0 and 3-0 deficits in series but I'd be lying if I said I could remember which ones specifically said that any further back than those. It's happened enough. I'm sure I remember the Pens more because of the obvious. And who could forget Pens vs. Bruins in the conference final in '91 when Stevens promised we'd sweep them after losing the first two, and we did.

[radoran]

The Penguins in 2009 were the most recent Cup winners that come to mind, your own Flyers said the same thing before taking 4 in a row from Boston to move on, Pens coming back against Washington in '09.. Those are three series I can remember. History has a lot if 2-0 and 3-0 deficits in series but I'd be lying if I said I could remember which ones specifically said that any further back than those. It's happened enough. I'm sure I remember the Pens more because of the obvious. And who could forget Pens vs. Bruins in the conference final in '91 when Stevens promised we'd sweep them after losing the first two, and we did.

The Pens/Caps was the second round in 2009. The Flyers didn't win the Cup (and that was the second round, too).

True stories

I just went back through 1997 and there's not a time where a team goes down even 2-0 in the Conference Final where they advance, much less win the Cup.

In my opinion, the final rounds of the Stanley Cup playoff represent the highest level of competition in sport. If you don't show up for Game 1, you're in trouble. Get blown out in Game 2 (at home) and you're toast.

Lost Game 3? There's not a bottle big enough to contain enough lightning to make that happen.

[Polaris922]

The Pens/Caps was the second round in 2009. The Flyers didn't win the Cup (and that was the second round, too).

True stories

I just went back through 1997 and there's not a time where a team goes down even 2-0 in the Conference Final where they advance, much less win the Cup.

In my opinion, the final rounds of the Stanley Cup playoff represent the highest level of competition in sport. If you don't show up for Game 1, you're in trouble. Get blown out in Game 2 (at home) and you're toast.

Lost Game 3? There's not a bottle big enough to contain enough lightning to make that happen.

If you go back to my original comment :

"@radoran

You can say never, but there are countless teams in history, many of them Cup winners, who freely admit "we just weren't ready to play" and similar comments after bad starts to series'."

I never said just in Conference Finals. I said in series'. I think you added that criteria. I know coming back from 2-0 is rare, 3-0 even more so.. But I have faith that if a team on the ice these days can do it, it's this one.

[radoran]

If you go back to my original comment :

"@radoran

You can say never, but there are countless teams in history, many of them Cup winners, who freely admit "we just weren't ready to play" and similar comments after bad starts to series'."

I never said just in Conference Finals. I said in series'. I think you added that criteria. I know coming back from 2-0 is rare, 3-0 even more so.. But I have faith that if a team on the ice these days can do it, it's this one.

I said "Conference Finals" in the post you were replying to.

The point being that the later you are in the playoffs, the more difficult it is to come back. The 2009 Final was a classic seven-game, win-at-home, big seventh game.

For whatever reason, in recent memory the Conference Finals have been either more hard fought or pretty much a blow out.

[Polaris922]

@radoran

I agree it gets tougher, was just stating that a lot of teams move on after admitting to lazy starts. Wasn't singling out any particular round for it.

Alas... Not this time either.

[flyercanuck]

Yeah - ha ha. Funny photo.

Any examples? I'l give you swatting Voracek's glove away but even that....meh. Who cares. Clarkie does that an he's a legend. But I'll give it to you. That's one.

Anything else?

Don't be the "Fat Girl", FC. The "Fat Girl" is that 18-25 year old hefer who became a Bruins fan after their Cup run (and because Bergeron is wicked hot) who, if asked, will tell you Crosby whines and dives..not because she has hockey knowledge but because her boyfriend, Sully, said so one night while they were enjoying a date night over a wheel and some Sam Adams (she wore her Bergeron jersey that night; looked about 3 sizes to small). Sully knows Crosby dives because his boys, Petey and Schmiddy, said so...during daaaart night over some Sam Adams and a wheel. Of course, the "Fat Girl", Sully, Petey and Schmiddy don't know Bobby Orr from iron ore and think "Cam Neeley" is an car engine paaaart.

So....don't be the fat girl. Give me something.

If you're comparing me to someone who just started following hockey, I'd expect better of you. . I was watching Crosby play before 99.999999% of Pens fans had ever heard his name. There are plenty of youtube videos of Crosby showing his "I want a penalty and I want it NOW" bs that he still uses, though not nearly as much as he used to. For the games greatest present player, he's embarrassed himself plenty with that crap. Do I really need to post videos?

Edited June 8, 2013 by flyercanuck

[flyercanuck]

No, I think we're all seeing the same video, its just the spin on it.

Here, I'll give it a try, tell me what you think.

<Reality off>

Crosby, going towards a confrontation at center ice, ignores a clear red light at the center ice intersections, cuts in front of Rask and gives Rask a vicious elbow

to the chest that had to hurt more than the typical 95 mile/hr slap shot with a frozen rubber puck. Rask, falling

off balance due to the complete cheapshot by Crosby, accidently touches Crosby's leg with the end of his stick.

Crosby, being the dive artist that he is, tries to draw a penalty by stumbling.

Seeing that no penalty is going to be called, CryBaby Crosby then tries to break Rask's arm with a leaping crosscheck to the arm and

skates away with Rask writhing on the ice while yelling "Hey I'm Sidney Crosby, You can't do that to me!".

There, was that interpretation better?

<Reality back on>

But really, I won't disagree with your view of it. Crosby bumps him going by, didn't have to. But for people to say that it was an attempt to

intimidate Rask and throw him off his game? Really? With THAT? As you said, it was a lot of nothings. But here we are a week later

and people are still talking about it. With all crosschecks, slashes, facewashes . . . that go on during the playoffs between whistles

and after horns this is what we are talking about.

Here's a what if. What if you could not see the play, and could only read all the web accounts of it for the last week. Finally, at long

last, you can finally see a video of it. Do you think that it would live up to what you read about? I think most people would continue to

search YouTube because they couldn't believe THIS was what every one was talking about.

I never said Crosby was trying to take Rask off his game. I never made a big deal out of this incident. Just pointed out what REALLY happened.

[flyercanuck]

But But But . . . Didn't you see, before that face off, Crosby opened up his mouth and said something. OBVIOUSLY he was whining to the official, we all know that as fact.

And did you see, when he was hit there and fell down on the ice, it had NOTHING to do with the actual hit, it OBVIOUSLY was a dive because we all know he does that all the time.

Oh, and that penalty on him, OBVIOUSLY is was so undisciplined because he is such a baby, we ALL know that too.

And in the end they lost the game, so OBVIOUSLY its a failure of his leadership skills.

The Fan boys give him all the credit and none of the blame, the haters give him all of the blame and not of the credit. Somewhere there has to be a happy medium.

On the old Flyer board where most of us migrated from, the majority were in the Ovechkin corner when it was worth arguing. My opinion was always take OV if you want goals, take Crosby if you want to win. Is that medium enough for ya?

[flyercanuck]

I'm convinced now more than ever that this all goes back to the Hatcher game and the haters just won't let it go.

If you're referring to Hatchers crosscheck, I said at the time it was a stupid thing to do. You've now got the next great player in the leagues hate for the duration of his career.

[B21]

_{Are you talking the crosscheck where Sid lost the tops of his teeth and that Moron Hitchcock it making diving motions on the bench like Crosby's trying to draw a penalty?}

You didn't know he keeps these up his sleve and spits them out anytime a stick gets near his face?

[B21]

I'm going with overall body of work rather than one year. I've argued Crosby's leadership problems cost them last year's Flyers series and now here we are again flopping in the ECFs after what just about anyone would describe as the easiest path of any of the Final Four.

And I did pick someone else. Tavares. Who has labored on the freaking Islanders and still held composure through a hard fought seven gamer against a heavily favored Pens squad.

That said, I haven't watched every minute of every Chicago series, but I've watched more than a few games and haven't noticed Toews' "excesses" putting his Blackhawks down 3-0 in the WCFs.

That's kind of a convenient example. Tavares has not had one ounce of pressure on him since the Isles drafted him. Zilch. Taking the Pens to 4-2 was considered an accomplishment for that team. Anything less than the Stanley Cup finals is failed season for Crosby's team. No one goes to Isles games. Pens have sold out every game since Crosby was drafted. That kind of pressure cannot be underestimated. Tavares has no expectations. Crosby has more than any player in the league. By far. Switch them...and things change dramatically. There is no microscope on every...little...thing...Tavares does like there is for Crosby.

Every once and a while, a player cracks under pressure. Considering he won a Cup, been to a SCF and only lost in the 1st round twice (once being his rookie season), I'd say he's done OK. I don't absolve him for the team's uninspired play. He's #2 on that "fault" list after Bylsma. But that Rask incident had nothing to do with any of it. Mountain out of a mole hill....because it's Crosby.

[B21]

If you're comparing me to someone who just started following hockey, I'd expect better of you. . I was watching Crosby play before 99.999999% of Pens fans had ever heard his name. There are plenty of youtube videos of Crosby showing his "I want a penalty and I want it NOW" bs that he still uses, though not nearly as much as he used to. For the games greatest present player, he's embarrassed himself plenty with that crap. Do I really need to post videos?

You mean Juniors? Yeah - post those. How a 16-17 year old kid acted like a 16-17 year old kid and how that translates into his being a "spoiled brat" now.

NHL? Post those, too. Too many hats on the ice after OV's hat trick. Dubinsky. Tortorella. "I don't like them". Handshakegate. Likely seen them all...and argued them all and how if it is any other player....

Edit: Isn't what happens in Juniors supposed to stay in Juniors? See: Downie, Steve. Can't have it both ways if that is the direction you want to go with this.

.

Edited June 8, 2013 by B21

[nossagog]

On the old Flyer board where most of us migrated from, the majority were in the Ovechkin corner when it was worth arguing. My opinion was always take OV if you want goals, take Crosby if you want to win. Is that medium enough for ya?

I'd have been happy with the take Crosby if you wanted assists, but it will do.

[nossagog]

I never said Crosby was trying to take Rask off his game. I never made a big deal out of this incident. Just pointed out what REALLY happened.

Oh I know, I was just going off the deep end in the other direction. Sometimes it feels like the right thing to do, but I do feel dirty afterwards. Just a little.