Impact of Berube's "Mini-Camp"?

[aziz]

This week, they're giving Berube the opportunity to run a week-long mini camp and think that will simply right the ship. They are seriously THAT delusional.

Why is that delusional? Seems like the exact medicine for a new coach and his shambles team. Edited October 20, 2013 by radoran
split

[ruxpin]

Why is that delusional? Seems like the exact medicine for a new coach and his shambles team.

It's what they're supposed to do when they've just had a coaching change and they have a break in the schedule. It's delusional if anyone thinks it's going to do a damn bit of good.

[canoli]

exactly my reaction. "Why is that delusional?"

 

I don't know if it's what they need or not but it's what they have. They have some time. They also have one other thing that apparently Rux discounts completely: they can all play the game and play it well.

 

@ruxpin

I know you think Coburn "sucks" or "is useless" or whatever. That's fine but you're in the minority. Maybe not here on a fan message board when the team is 1-7 (ask them once the Flyers are winning again) but around the NHL Coburn is considered a good D-man. Maybe not a top pair guy like I want(ed) to believe but a perfectly serviceable defenseman. Obviously right now everybody is seeing his braincramps and wondering like we are WTF is wrong with him. But in general he's pretty well respected.

 

I bet it's the same deal with most of the Fyers. All except Hartnell. I bet if you asked GMs or HCs about Harntnell you'd hear everything from "a total stiff, pass" to "valuable, tough, we could use him."

 

Leaving aside Hartnell and the younger guys who are obviously question marks this team has plenty of talent to win hockey games. Frankly I'd like to hear you post more about what you were saying a few days ago, how it's not the players themselves so much it's the mix, the makeup that doesn't work. You're probably on to something there but lord knows I can't figure it out.

[aziz]

It's delusional if anyone thinks it's going to do a damn bit of good.

Ok, but again... Why? I know the roster isn't all - world, but it isn't THIS bad. Middle of the pack, but not bottom of the barrel. if it isn't the roster itself, then it is the way the roster is playing. And if that is the case, then I would thing a week long mini camp with a new coach may very well do some good. If not that, then what does?

[ruxpin]

Ok, but again... Why? I know the roster isn't all - world, but it isn't THIS bad. Middle of the pack, but not bottom of the barrel. if it isn't the roster itself, then it is the way the roster is playing. And if that is the case, then I would thing a week long mini camp with a new coach may very well do some good. If not that, then what does?

I'll give you two reasons--both opinion, of course

1) the roster sucks. You could give this defense 7 months rather than 7 days and it will still suck. The forwards are too slow and simply don't go together.

2) the new coach sucks and has no business being a head coach in the NHL.

TO @canoli. I think you're either smoking something funny or eating "special" brownies on Coburn. If other GMs think Coburn is a 24 min./gm. first line defenseman, they're smoking some seriously contaminated hash. He's barely second pair and I think best suited for third. A couple other teams have asked about him, but the reason he's still here is that those teams are offering compensation for a third pairing/fill-in second pairing defenseman but our ridiculous GM has him way overvalued.

I haven't liked him since about a week or two after his arrival. I think he plays with the brains of a walnut and is too stupid to know he's big.

Seriously, if what you say about other GMs were true, Coburn wouldn't still be here.

[ruxpin]

Ok, but again... Why? I know the roster isn't all - world, but it isn't THIS bad. Middle of the pack, but not bottom of the barrel. if it isn't the roster itself, then it is the way the roster is playing. And if that is the case, then I would thing a week long mini camp with a new coach may very well do some good. If not that, then what does?

I missed a very important part of your post the first time:

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be dead last and should be middle of the pack---but the lower middle that just misses the playoffs. While I guess some people may call that a difference, I'm not one of them...except that it's the difference between a very good draft pick and a "could maybe be good."

[aziz]

Yes, I agree that we shouldn't be dead last and should be middle of the pack---but the lower middle that just misses the playoffs. While I guess some people may call that a difference, I'm not one of them.

 

to me, it is the difference between "blow it up and start over", where basically everyone gets shipped out, and "roster needs work but is a workable starting point".  

 

if the core of giroux/schenn/voracek/simmonds/couturier/schenn/grossman/mason/read are a calgary flames level of collective suck, then each one needs to moved for whatever and wipe the slate clean.  if they are capable of carrying the team to the .500 level, then that's something to build on.  it isn't enough, but it's a start.

 

so, yes, i'd call it a difference.  

[ruxpin]

to me, it is the difference between "blow it up and start over", where basically everyone gets shipped out, and "roster needs work but is a workable starting point".  

 

if the core of giroux/schenn/voracek/simmonds/couturier/schenn/grossman/mason/read are a calgary flames level of collective suck, then each one needs to moved for whatever and wipe the slate clean.  if they are capable of carrying the team to the .500 level, then that's something to build on.  it isn't enough, but it's a start.

 

so, yes, i'd call it a difference.  

 

I don't know.   I completely get what you're saying and am willing to agree.  There are probably more differences, but I guess I was referring to ultimate result this year.

 

I think you're wise to be viewing it in terms of next year and beyond, though, and in that case you're certainly right.   

 

In terms of this year, the difference between finishing out of the playoffs barely and finishing last is screwing up your draft pick.  Because both results end up with golfing in mid-April.

 

I wonder, though, if even Calgary Flames suckage gets the core you mentioned blown up.   It may, however, finally get Holmgren shitcanned.  I know you're not supposed to cheer against your team, but I'm kind of hoping for ugly suckage this year just to get the Holmgren canning accomplished.  I view that as cheering for my team's best interest long-term but I can understand why some would consider that backwards cheering.

 

I guess I just don't see enough in this team -- or the new coach, for that matter -- that 6-7 days of minicamp will accomplish much.  At least when they first come back they'll be playing against another horribly under-performing team and might be rewarded with some reward for working hard this week.  For the most part, though, I don't expect to see much difference after this week.

[PHI Flyers10]

I will also agree that Coburn is useless. He hasn't looked good since he got injured from that puck to the face. He's gotten worse every season since then and while you can't point fingers when the whole team is playing as badly as it is, Coburn just flat out sucks now. Grossmann is also overrated but that's a different conversation.

[aziz]

In terms of this year, the difference between finishing out of the playoffs barely and finishing last is screwing up your draft pick.  Because both results end up with golfing in mid-April.

 

true.  i've never been too swayed by the idea of lottery picks (have you heard the weirdness going on with yakupov recently?), i'd just as soon see some wins to go with the embarrassment.  and again, it gives you a better idea of what the team actually has and what it actually needs.

 

my secret hope is that holmgren is already done.  that snider has already said, "you obviously aren't working towards any plan here, you've been throwing random crap at the wall for years now to see which bits don't stink, and i've had enough.  you'll stay on for the season, and then you'll announce your resignation the day after the season ends.  any moves you want to make will be cleared through me, and after i've had mr hextall review them, i'll let you know if they are ok.  you are in lame duck mode, let's hope you can end your tenure with at least a little pride.  but it is out of your hands, now."

 

as for after next week...we'll see.  i can't get my head around this kind of play from these players for too too long.  i mean, giroux was a point per game player for two years, he has to get back at least close to that again at some point, doesn't he?  vorcek, simmonds, read...this team shouldn't be any worse than last season, right?  better, really, if only because they are actually getting solid goaltending.  things *have* to turn around at least a little bit.  maybe not 180 degrees, but...45 degrees....don't they?  i dunno.  like i said, end of season positioning be damned, i'd like to see at least some decent hockey this season.

[ruxpin]

as for after next week...we'll see.  i can't get my head around this kind of play from these players for too too long.  i mean, giroux was a point per game player for two years, he has to get back at least close to that again at some point, doesn't he?  vorcek, simmonds, read...this team shouldn't be any worse than last season, right?  better, really, if only because they are actually getting solid goaltending.  things *have* to turn around at least a little bit.  maybe not 180 degrees, but...45 degrees....don't they?  i dunno.  like i said, end of season positioning be damned, i'd like to see at least some decent hockey this season.

 

I can't disagree with any of that.   I, myself, would like to see some damn hockey by people wearing orange and black.

 

Somewhat different topic but you touched on it above so I'll ask:   What do you think the deal is with Giroux and Voracek, in particular?   I'll add Simmonds to that question, I guess, but I think Read is doing what Read has done.   He seems to be a streaky player to me who goes through stretches of funk and stretches that gets him to keep his job and get new contracts.   I like Read, but he's always seemed to be a hot/cold player.  And boy is he cold right now.   Not the only one, of course, but man he's cold.

 

And yeah, the "shouldn't be any worse than last season" is a good point--although they really would have been competing for the basement if they didn't go on a little run at the end.

[aziz]

@ruxpin

 

re: giroux and voracek.....no idea.  vaguely, i think giroux's doing too much and voracek isn't doing enough.  giroux is trying to make everything happen by himself and voracek seems to have no desire to have the puck on his stick.  equally as vague, the forecheck for the entire team is stale.  there isn't any team-wide or even line-wide plan everyone is working on to get the puck into scoring areas.  they look to me to be executing a system for the sake of executing a system, with no creativity, no response to the flow of the game around them.  get the puck in deep, cycle it around the boards, eventually work the cycle to the halfwall, dish to a dman for a one time shot.  there is nothing surprising, no variation, no opportunism.  they aren't even looking for it.  it's like they are lost if the puck isn't pinned against the boards by at least 5 skates.

 

remember last season when giroux started finding hartnell in that soft spot just above the faceoff dot, fling the puck from the boards to hartnell who'd do that awkward but bizarrely effective one-time sweep of the puck at the net?  how many goalies did they catch sleeping with that one?  there isn't anything like that right now.

 

which is why i have some small hope for this down time.  if berube can wake them up, if only by introducing some new math to how the forecheck will work, things might change a good bit.  going through the motions you've been working on for years...maybe that explains at least some of what we're seeing.  if so, new motions maybe bring new attentiveness.  maybe.  you're right, they were bottom feeders last season until the end, but the one place they were successful was goalscoring.  within the top 10 in the league.  they were scored on even more, but still.  this roster *should* be among the top third of the league offensively.  if something can wake them back up to that level, that level we've seen them operate at....  put that along with way better goaltending and at least marginally better defense, and the whole picture changes.  45 degrees, at least.

[radoran]

true.  i've never been too swayed by the idea of lottery picks (have you heard the weirdness going on with yakupov recently?), i'd just as soon see some wins to go with the embarrassment.  and again, it gives you a better idea of what the team actually has and what it actually needs.

 

my secret hope is that holmgren is already done.  that snider has already said, "you obviously aren't working towards any plan here, you've been throwing random crap at the wall for years now to see which bits don't stink, and i've had enough.  you'll stay on for the season, and then you'll announce your resignation the day after the season ends.  any moves you want to make will be cleared through me, and after i've had mr hextall review them, i'll let you know if they are ok.  you are in lame duck mode, let's hope you can end your tenure with at least a little pride.  but it is out of your hands, now."

 

as for after next week...we'll see.  i can't get my head around this kind of play from these players for too too long.  i mean, giroux was a point per game player for two years, he has to get back at least close to that again at some point, doesn't he?  vorcek, simmonds, read...this team shouldn't be any worse than last season, right?  better, really, if only because they are actually getting solid goaltending.  things *have* to turn around at least a little bit.  maybe not 180 degrees, but...45 degrees....don't they?  i dunno.  like i said, end of season positioning be damned, i'd like to see at least some decent hockey this season.

 

Thing is, if Holmgren has any pride under those circumstances, he walks out right then and there.

 

But, you are right, he would rather be vice president in charge of hockey advancement.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

What mini camp?  They took the weekend off.  What f u c k in mini camp????????????????????????????

[doom88]

I will also agree that Coburn is useless. He hasn't looked good since he got injured from that puck to the face. He's gotten worse every season since then and while you can't point fingers when the whole team is playing as badly as it is, Coburn just flat out sucks now. Grossmann is also overrated but that's a different conversation.

Yes! I have no doubt that exact situation changed Coburn. Just sucks for the guy, as he really had a high ceiling before that moment. Rarely, you'll see that angry-Coburn creep out with a solid hit or hard shot on net, but overall, he's never coming back.

[doom88]

What mini camp? They took the weekend off. What f u c k in mini camp????????????????????????????

The next game isn't until Thurs, at home. I've suggested this before, but letting them get away and reset their minds could be a good thing. They have the time, why not? I'm sure they will be worked and coached up the next three days off.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

The next game isn't until Thurs, at home. I've suggested this before, but letting them get away and reset their minds could be a good thing. They have the time, why not? I'm sure they will be worked and coached up the next three days off.

 

So you think the team is going to get better by not working, not skating?  They're only 8 games into the season!!!  There is no freakin way they need to get away from the game for a while!  They just had 5 months off!!

 

 "Practice...We talkin about practice? 

[Bakanekimiwa]

the team doesn't seem to have any idea how they're going to enter the offensive zone with or without the puck, so i can only see this as a plus. it seems they are kinda trying to play a new system and when that doesn't work... revert to the old one. in other words... it's a cluster phuck. maybe a mini camp gets them all on the same page again. 

[Philly29]

So you think the team is going to get better by not working, not skating?  They're only 8 games into the season!!!  There is no freakin way they need to get away from the game for a while!  They just had 5 months off!!

 

 "Practice...We talkin about practice? 

That is what a mini camp is ...skating, working, strategies...Doom even said it in his post

Edited October 21, 2013 by Philly29

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

That is what a mini camp is ...skating, working, strategies...Doom even said it in his post

 

What part of THEY TOOK THE WEEKEND OFF do you not understand.  Let me outline their mini camp schedule for you:

 

Friday Oct 18:  Day off

Saturday Oct 19:  Day off

Sunday Oct 20:  Lecavalier & Hartnell Skate.  Team outing at the Eagles game.

 

Now tell me how that equates to "skating, working, strategies"?  Help me out here!! 

[Philly29]

What part of THEY TOOK THE WEEKEND OFF do you not understand.  Let me outline their mini camp schedule for you:

 

Friday Oct 18:  Day off

Saturday Oct 19:  Day off

Sunday Oct 20:  Lecavalier & Hartnell Skate.  Team outing at the Eagles game.

 

Now tell me how that equates to "skating, working, strategies"?  Help me out here!! 

They have 7 DAYS OFF what part of WEEK OFF and PLENTY OF TIME  to get things done don't you not understand!! See I can make capital letter also

 

Watching the Eagles probably made them feel better about themselves...

[aziz]

What part of THEY TOOK THE WEEKEND OFF do you not understand. Let me outline their mini camp schedule for you:

Friday Oct 18: Day off

Saturday Oct 19: Day off

Sunday Oct 20: Lecavalier & Hartnell Skate. Team outing at the Eagles game.

Now tell me how that equates to "skating, working, strategies"? Help me out here!!

And if the next three days go skate hard mornings, video afternoons, that's something.

I'm not loving that they took three days off (did they really do a team outing to the Eagles game?), but a lot can be accomplished in the next three days.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

They have 7 DAYS OFF what part of WEEK OFF and PLENTY OF TIME  to get things done don't you not understand!! See I can make capital letter also

 

Watching the Eagles probably made them feel better about themselves...

 

The thing is, they don't have plenty of time.  They have the worst record in the league.  They're playing like crap and (8 games into the season) I'd be willing to bet they lead the league in days off!  The Phoenix Goalie has more goals than 14 Flyers (only 2 Flyers have more goals than Smith). They need to be on the ice working and the bottom line is, they're not. 

 

And if the next three days go skate hard mornings, video afternoons, that's something.

I'm not loving that they took three days off (did they really do a team outing to the Eagles game?), but a lot can be accomplished in the next three days.

 

Three days is like a normal break between games.  They've squandered three days already.  Practice for three days and then take a day off, if needed.  It tells me that the systems (or lack thereof) that Berube is using are not much, if at all different than Lavy's.  More of the same...

 

I usually don't get this worked up over this team, but this whole situation is pissing me off.  @Philly29, no offense intended in my posts.

[doom88]

The thing is, they don't have plenty of time. They have the worst record in the league. They're playing like crap and (8 games into the season) I'd be willing to bet they lead the league in days off! The Phoenix Goalie has more goals than 14 Flyers (only 2 Flyers have more goals than Smith). They need to be on the ice working and the bottom line is, they're not.

Three days is like a normal break between games. They've squandered three days already. Practice for three days and then take a day off, if needed. It tells me that the systems (or lack thereof) that Berube is using are not much, if at all different than Lavy's. More of the same...

I usually don't get this worked up over this team, but this whole situation is pissing me off. @Philly29, no offense intended in my posts.

I think you are prematurely overreacting, that's all. Calm down and see where the week takes us?

You don't cure mental issues with burying guys in the same thing they can't figure out. You let them step back, reassess, and then work hard at a new perspective. Getting away from hockey may have helped them more than a few video sessions and a bag skate. They know they suck, they know they lack confidence, and in sum that's a downward spiral. You break that first, then claw back with everything you've got.

Just temper the anger with a little patience and faith. The coach might do things differently than you'd like, but he's actually paid to get the job done. Let's see how it plays out. Then, pitchforks and torches if necessary.

[Philly29]

It is all good Alaska no offense taken. I hear your brotha your frustrated because you love this team, your a die hard fan I understand believe me but just as in any bad situation the last thing you want to do is panic...Lets see what happens Thursday and we go from there.