Luke Schenn next to go? (rumor)

[ruxpin]

I believe the Leafs signed him to that contract and the Flyers took it over when we traded JVR for Schenn. Still a bad contract for a non-proven D man.

Yeah, I knew he had that from the Leafs. Just don't understand it.

[ruxpin]

As with any potential deal, the question isn't "who should be traded" but "what's coming back."

Homer traded for that "inherited" contract... Traded a budding 30-goal scorer he previously used the 2nd pick in the draft to select and signed to a five year deal.

I can't criticize that trade.

No, really, I CAN'T. I wasn't a fan of JVR and am stunned that he's doing well. Really, I felt like it was a trade of a kid who was struggling for a kid who was struggling. I'll hang in there with it. I've been told defensemen take longer to develop than forwards, so maybe Schenn just isn't there yet.

[radoran]

Yeah, I knew he had that from the Leafs. Just don't understand it.

 

Two words: Brian Burke.

 

Who, if we're not careful, will be the next Flyers GM...

[radoran]

I can't criticize that trade.

No, really, I CAN'T. I wasn't a fan of JVR and am stunned that he's doing well. Really, I felt like it was a trade of a kid who was struggling for a kid who was struggling. I'll hang in there with it. I've been told defensemen take longer to develop than forwards, so maybe Schenn just isn't there yet.

 

Can, have and will.

 

Defensemen do typically take longer to develop than forwards. Trading a guy who was a 20-goal scorer in his second year in the league that you just signed to a rather reasonable five year deal and getting back an underperforming, overpaid young defenseman isn't a "great move" from where I sit.

 

YMMV.

[ruxpin]

Can, have and will.

 

Defensemen do typically take longer to develop than forwards. Trading a guy who was a 20-goal scorer in his second year in the league that you just signed to a rather reasonable five year deal and getting back an underperforming, overpaid young defenseman isn't a "great move" from where I sit.

 

YMMV.

 

I tend to agree.  You know why *I* can't criticize the trade, though.  Considering I railed on JVR for 2-3 years and tacitly supported the trade when it happened, if I suddenly criticized it I'd be just as bad as the yahoos who railed against Carle the entire time he was here but now include letting him go in the reasons to fire Holmgren.

[krasy]

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Eklund/Dallas-Others-Inquiring-About-Luke-Schenn/1/55396#.UnbnoFMQPOs

 

 

 

 

The play of defenseman Luke Schenn last season was one of the few bright spots for a massively disappointing Philadelphia Flyers club in the lockout-shortened season. This season: Well, the Flyers are off to another terrible start and Schenn has been part of the problem rather than part of the solution.

Yesterday in New Jersey, Craig Berube sent a message to Schenn by making him a healthy scratch. For the season, his average ice time is down from last year's average of 21:51 to an average of 15:36.

What got Schenn in the doghouse? It appears that he was one on the players that Berube (who has heavily emphasized skating since taking over from Peter Laviolette) was referring to when he said there were some players who had come to camp in good muscular shape but poor skating shape. Even before he got removed from the lineup, Schenn voluntarily took extra skating after practice, which is unusual for a non-rehabbing or non-scratched player to do. Unfortunately, Schenn's on-ice play has still not come around yet to where he or the team wants it to be.

Nevertheless, I found out today that there are clubs -- Dallas is one and another Western Conference club -- who have some interest in the big, physical defenseman. The source said that "although the optics of trading Schenn after acquiring him for JVR would look terrible" and the Flyers still have Luke's brother, Brayden, on the club, "the team is worried first and foremost about improving the team, regardless of the outside optics." That makes sense, because the Flyers have never cared what anyone outside the organization thinks.

 

At least Schenn is doing something to helps his game. If i am not mistaken last Flyers known for doing voluntary training was Jagr and his weight vest.

My point is what does team leaders and veterans do to improve their game, beside after game comments like - "we need to play 60 minutes" and "that was our best game so far, we are getting there" ?

[radoran]

I tend to agree.  You know why *I* can't criticize the trade, though.  Considering I railed on JVR for 2-3 years and tacitly supported the trade when it happened, if I suddenly criticized it I'd be just as bad as the yahoos who railed against Carle the entire time he was here but now include letting him go in the reasons to fire Holmgren.

 

The team has always coveted a 30-goal scorer from New Jersey. That was "Bobby Ryan."

 

Certainly looks like they traded one away.

 

I just see another case of the team being "disappointed" that he didn't leave UNH early enough, "disappointed" with his 20-goal sophomore season, "disappointed" that he got injured and then trading him for a lesser asset.

 

Now they're apparently considering trading that asset?

 

Again, this team managed to turn Vaclav Prospal and the pick that became Danny Briere into Adam Burt. Took a few trades, took a little wrangling - and we did get to watch Daigle and Falloon wear orange and black, so we have that going for us - but it's just amazing to follow what this team does with assets.

[isaiah520]

I can't criticize that trade.

No, really, I CAN'T. I wasn't a fan of JVR and am stunned that he's doing well. Really, I felt like it was a trade of a kid who was struggling for a kid who was struggling. I'll hang in there with it. I've been told defensemen take longer to develop than forwards, so maybe Schenn just isn't there yet.

the thing about the trade was that pwr forwards usually have a development curve similar to dmen, so i'm not surprised about JVR's success. that and the fact that JVR was a much more dynamic plyr w/ a higher ceiling. he earned the contract they signed him to by taking over during moments of the plyoff series vs BOS and then he struggled thru some injuries.

it's not like they acquired a plyr in schenn who was coming off peak performances. he was struggling to get mins in TOR and trade rumors were rampant that entire season. he was at best projected to be a stay at home guy who made a better than avg outlet pass, but he had zero O upside so he had a clear ceiling....a very poor value trade, which i hated then...even more now.

then they let go of carle and nothing made any sense. can't gamble w/ losing puck movers.

[ruxpin]

the thing about the trade was that pwr forwards usually have a development curve similar to dmen, so i'm not surprised about JVR's success. that and the fact that JVR was a much more dynamic plyr w/ a higher ceiling. he earned the contract they signed him to by taking over during moments of the plyoff series vs BOS and then he struggled thru some injuries.

it's not like they acquired a plyr in schenn who was coming off peak performances. he was struggling to get mins in TOR and trade rumors were rampant that entire season. he was at best projected to be a stay at home guy who made a better than avg outlet pass, but he had zero O upside so he had a clear ceiling....a very poor value trade, which i hated then...even more now.

then they let go of carle and nothing made any sense. can't gamble w/ losing puck movers.

 

 

I completely agree with you and rad in retrospect.  I'm only saying that it's hard for me to jump on that bandwagon at this point because most who have been here awhile would correctly yell "hypocrite!"

[jackhole]

team managed to turn Vaclav Prospal and the pick that became Danny Briere into Adam Burt

Hey!  Adam Burt was my favorite flyer!

[ruxpin]

Hey!  Adam Burt was my favorite flyer!

 

Mine too.  Glad someone else remembers him correctly.

[EightyEight]

Timonen and maybe Grossmann need to be moved though. Too slow. The heart and effort are there, but the body isn't cooperating.

 

I didn't see Timonen's heart or effort on the capitals break away goal on Friday night.  He really hesitated and was the reason the caps player was able to go in on Emery virtually uncontested.  Just my 2 cents.

[canoli]

ya he looked old and slow on that play no doubt. In his defense he *may* have figured (at least hoped) Gus was going to catch him, Gus being one of the speedier players in the league. IIRC he and Kimmo both had a shot at harassing Chimera but he left them both in the dust.

 

with JVR I think it's important we remember how he played in Philly. To most of us it didn't look like "learning curve" it looked like "lack of effort" for way too many nights. Consecutive nights - enough to get him benched how many times? I can't remember. He would turn on the jets once a month maybe and the rest of the time he was Mr. Invisible.

 

It's not hard to spot the difference between a kid struggling to find his way in the NHL - like Couturier or Schenn - as opposed to a kid who's just not working hard enough. That "disappointment" that Rad was talking about got conveyed to him and it looked to me like he let it fester; he turned it into a grudge against the Flyers and he'd be damned if he was going to give it his all for this fkng team (that's how it looked to me; of course i've no idea what he was really thinking), That one PO round where he lit it up...that was it.

 

So I saw it like Rux did - a struggling player for a struggling player, both who appeared to need a change of scenery.

[radoran]

ya he looked old and slow on that play no doubt. In his defense he *may* have figured (at least hoped) Gus was going to catch him, Gus being one of the speedier players in the league. IIRC he and Kimmo both had a shot at harassing Chimera but he left them both in the dust.

with JVR I think it's important we remember how he played in Philly. To most of us it didn't look like "learning curve" it looked like "lack of effort" for way too many nights. Consecutive nights - enough to get him benched how many times? I can't remember. He would turn on the jets once a month maybe and the rest of the time he was Mr. Invisible.

It's not hard to spot the difference between a kid struggling to find his way in the NHL - like Couturier or Schenn - as opposed to a kid who's just not working hard enough. That "disappointment" that Rad was talking about got conveyed to him and it looked to me like he let it fester; he turned it into a grudge against the Flyers and he'd be damned if he was going to give it his all for this fkng team (that's how it looked to me; of course i've no idea what he was really thinking), That one PO round where he lit it up...that was it.

So I saw it like Rux did - a struggling player for a struggling player, both who appeared to need a change of scenery.

So, for you, he "looked" like the rest of the team looks now?

To me he "looked" like a sophomore 20-goal scorer.

[DaGreatGazoo]

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on here.   

 

The VAST majority of Flyers fans felt it was a fair deal when it was made.  JVR was underwhelming here, and I don't think that's very debatable.  He has played very well in Toronto.  I've stated before that if he played this way for the Flyers, he would not have been traded.  They traded an underperforming forward(at the time), for what they thought they needed, a physical defenseman.    

 

I see the point about the 5 year deal, but IMO, that 5 year deal is what made JVR trade-able.  He was locked up-and had salary cap certainty for the obtaining team.  I'd like to argue that Homer signed him with the sole intent of trading him, but that would indicate some type of plan.  Which we all know is not the case.  

[radoran]

I think there's a bit of revisionist history going on here.

The VAST majority of Flyers fans felt it was a fair deal when it was made. JVR was underwhelming here, and I don't think that's very debatable. He has played very well in Toronto. I've stated before that if he played this way for the Flyers, he would not have been traded. They traded an underperforming forward(at the time), for what they thought they needed, a physical defenseman.

I see the point about the 5 year deal, but IMO, that 5 year deal is what made JVR trade-able. He was locked up-and had salary cap certainty for the obtaining team. I'd like to argue that Homer signed him with the sole intent of trading him, but that would indicate some type of plan. Which we all know is not the case.

I still think it was a mistake to pick up Markov for Williams.

Wait, this is a different underperforming winger for a physical defenseman?

Screw it, what did Williams ever amount to anyway?

[canoli]

good stuff Gazoo - right on the money.

 

@radoran

 

No I don't think these Flyers today look at all like JVR did back then. This team is trying, it's working hard, breaking a sweat. There are any number of things we could point to as problems for the Flyers but "lack of effort" is not one of them.

[isaiah520]

@DaGreatGazoo

you might get a kick out of this i posted on a forum the day of the JVR trade:

"Just heard- HORRID!

Pwr fwds often take as long as dmen to develop. Jvr has shown dynamic flashes in his game and he was moved for a guy w/ a clear ceiling- think Matt Greene w/ better outlet pass ability. Not the offensive puck moving force we needed and the jvr asset is gone.

... And it's not like we haven't had time to think about this either. As a 1 for 1 swap, If jvr is reasonably healthy, it's a slam dunk win for TOR."

"can't believe we couldn't get more for JVR. it's like the JVR asset was burning a hole in homer's pocket and he had to get rid of it fast. what started out as a good weekend for the team, has ended under somewhat of a cloud, imo.

for me, they still need a puck moving dman and now a 20 goal scoring pwr forward. "

yeah, i was pi$$ed that day, but i'll tell you this- if i posted all of my prognostications at any given moment, i' prob be freakin' embarrassed at least half the time. it's easier to just say, 'damn! was i wrong, lol'

let there be no doubt- i've had to say so too many times for me to remember (y)

[radoran]

good stuff Gazoo - right on the money.

 

@radoran

 

No I don't think these Flyers today look at all like JVR did back then. This team is trying, it's working hard, breaking a sweat. There are any number of things we could point to as problems for the Flyers but "lack of effort" is not one of them.

 

If a guy can score 20 goals as an unmotivated, disappointing sophomore in the league - one that showed what he had in the Boston series and you had just signed to a five year deal - your Best Choice for the organization is to trade him for an overpaid, unmotivated pylon defenseman?

 

Good luck with that.

 

"Effort" is in the eye of the beholder. And, often, that beholder is the one with the responsibility to do something about it.

 

"Punt" isn't my first choice. It is, however, the Flyers'.

 

So the Flyers (still) have an underperforming asset and the Leafs have a 30-goal scorer.

[canoli]

well the jury is still out on Luke Schenn so "congratulations!" may be a bit premature. JVR looks like he's found a home and his game is coming along nicely. Schenn has shown a range of possibilities as to where/what he'll end up but he's already a better defender than Green even wants to be. Schenn's skating may be such a liability that he'll never be trusted with more than 3rd pair minutes. OTOH if he can improve that one aspect of his game - and I grant you it's a big one that he can't completely control (some of it is talent, natural ability) - he can develop into a solid defenseman with good puck-moving skills and enough heft to sweep the crease. We'll see... at least I hope we'll see him develop in the O&B.

[radoran]

well the jury is still out on Luke Schenn so "congratulations!" may be a bit premature. JVR looks like he's found a home and his game is coming along nicely. Schenn has shown a range of possibilities as to where/what he'll end up but he's already a better defender than Green even wants to be. Schenn's skating may be such a liability that he'll never be trusted with more than 3rd pair minutes. OTOH if he can improve that one aspect of his game - and I grant you it's a big one that he can't completely control (some of it is talent, natural ability) - he can develop into a solid defenseman with good puck-moving skills and enough heft to sweep the crease. We'll see... at least I hope we'll see him develop in the O&B.

 

I always hope that players will develop in orange and black.

 

And then they get traded in their third seasons for being "disappointing" and "not living up to expectations" after putting up a fantastic playoff round and 20 goals as a sophomore.

 

Where was the patience with JVR? Where was the "let him develop" mantra then?

 

They gave up a guy who is a potential 30-goal scorer in this league for a guy you say "may be such a liability that he'll never be trusted with more than 3rd pair minutes" and you want to have patience not with the scoring winger drafted second overall but with the defenseman who is underachieving on his second team?

[canoli]

I'm dealing with reality here, what we have. If I could go back and change the past I would, but I wouldn't undo the trade for Schenn because JVR's problem wasn't "sophomore slump" it was the disappearing act he put on for months at a time.

 

There's a big difference between "learning curve" or "sophomore slump" and "lack of effort." I already gave examples comparing Couturier and Brayden Schenn versus JVR. If you don't see it then you don't see it but to me the differences are pretty obvious..

 

This wasn't Couturier going months of games without a goal, this isn't "Stone hands" Simmonds, it's not Brayden Schenn firing rockets from anywhere / everywhere. All 3 of them have their issues but none of them look like "lazy" or "uninterested" or "refusing assignments" are among them. JVR, for most of his tenure in Philly gave every appearance of not wanting to work hard for the Flyers.

[radoran]

I'm dealing with reality here, what we have. If I could go back and change the past I would, but I wouldn't undo the trade for Schenn because JVR's problem wasn't "sophomore slump" it was the disappearing act he put on for months at a time.

 

There's a big difference between "learning curve" or "sophomore slump" and "lack of effort." I already gave examples comparing Couturier and Brayden Schenn versus JVR. If you don't see it then you don't see it but to me the differences are pretty obvious..

 

This wasn't Couturier going months of games without a goal, this isn't "Stone hands" Simmonds, it's not Brayden Schenn firing rockets from anywhere / everywhere. All 3 of them have their issues but none of them look like "lazy" or "uninterested" or "refusing assignments" are among them. JVR, for most of his tenure in Philly gave every appearance of not wanting to work hard for the Flyers.

 

Just for the record, it was a "Junior" slump - JVR scored 21 as a soph.

 

And he had 11 in 43 as a "Junior" - on pace for... another 20-goal season. He finished with 29 goals (56 points) in 91 games that season.

 

IMO, there's a lot of hindsight into how "bad" JVR was and how "necessary" the trade was - because it's becoming readily apparent that the team made a really, really bad decision. "The grapes were probably sour anyway."

 

Happy to read anything about him "refusing assignments" as this is the first time I have heard this.

[jackhole]

Mine too. Glad someone else remembers him correctly.

 

I distinctly remember his goal.      (Naw..... I don't.  Did he score one?)

[DaGreatGazoo]

I think this is a pretty interesting read, given the topic at hand.  

 

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/49217-jvr-trade/?hl=%2Bjvr+%2Btrade

Edited November 4, 2013 by DaGreatGazoo