How much worse does it have to get? Is Homer in Sochi?

[caluso]

i am not grumpy, just realistic. 

 

it's the same garbage every year. like colorado al posted, the effort simply isn't there and, like it or not, brayden schenn is one of those players who takes way too many shifts off. 

 

to say schenn is a top 6 forward "because he is," is nuts. let's face it, schenn didn't earn that spot - he was gifted a top 6 spot because Gomer gave up a lot to acquire him. schenn doesn't play like a top 6 forward and his stats show, that on any other team, he would be no better than a third liner. schenn is on pace to score 49 points in 82 games. mediocre, at best, and certainly not top 6 numbers! schenn was given every opportunity to prove himself and has failed time and time and time again to do so. 

 

as for couturier, i really like his moxie, but his skating is so poor that i wonder how high his ceiling really is?

[jammer2]

i am not grumpy, just realistic.

 

it's the same garbage every year. like colorado al posted, the effort simply isn't there and, like it or not, brayden schenn is one of those players who takes way too many shifts off. 

 

to say schenn is a top 6 forward "because he is," is nuts. let's face it, schenn didn't earn that spot - he was gifted a top 6 spot because Gomer gave up a lot to acquire him. schenn doesn't play like a top 6 forward and his stats show, that on any other team, he would be no better than a third liner. schenn is on pace to score 49 points in 82 games. mediocre, at best, and certainly not top 6 numbers! schenn was given every opportunity to prove himself and has failed time and time and time again to do so. 

 

as for couturier, i really like his moxie, but his skating is so poor that i wonder how high his ceiling really is?

 

  Good Lord, the guy is 22 freaking years old!  Third year in the league and scoring at a 0.6 pts per game, that is not mediocre, that is respectable. All players develop at different speeds. Some rip it up to start, most gain momentum for the first 2-3 years before exploding.

 

 Player A

Year 1  GP 56  G7 A 13 PTS 20

Year 2  GP 76  G23  A 12  PTS 35

Year 3  GP 78 G 22  A 24  PTS 46

Year 4  GP 80 G45  A 33  PTS 78

 

 Player B

Year 1  GP 54  G 12  A6 PTS 18

Year 2  GP 47  G8  A 18  PTS 26

Year 3 averaged out to 82 games

 GP 82  G 22  A  26 PTS 48 PTS

 

 

 Player A = Reggie Leach

 Player B= Brayden Schenn

 

 Not saying Brayden will be a Reggie Leach, but ya gotta admit, the career trajectories are striking similar to this point. I have no problem believing Brayden breaks out BIG TIME next year.  Schenn has scored some big goals this year, game winners, game tying goals, OT goals, we have not seen the best of this kid, not even close.

[caluso]

  Good Lord, the guy is 22 freaking years old!  Third year in the league and scoring at a 0.6 pts per game, that is not mediocre, that is respectable. All players develop at different speeds. Some rip it up to start, most gain momentum for the first 2-3 years before exploding.

 

 Player A

Year 1  GP 56  G7 A 13 PTS 20

Year 2  GP 76  G23  A 12  PTS 35

Year 3  GP 78 G 22  A 24  PTS 46

Year 4  GP 80 G45  A 33  PTS 78

 

 Player B

Year 1  GP 54  G 12  A6 PTS 18

Year 2  GP 47  G8  A 18  PTS 26

Year 3 averaged out to 82 games

 GP 82  G 22  A  26 PTS 48 PTS

 

 

 Player A = Reggie Leach

 Player B= Brayden Schenn

 

 Not saying Brayden will be a Reggie Leach, but ya gotta admit, the career trajectories are striking similar to this point. I have no problem believing Brayden breaks out BIG TIME next year.  Schenn has scored some big goals this year, game winners, game tying goals, OT goals, we have not seen the best of this kid, not even close.

do you think schenn plays hard? schenn is 22. at 22 there is no excuse for taking shifts off. if you don't play hard when you are new to the league, when will you?

 

also, there are dozens of players in this league who are younger than schenn yet are out - playing, outscoring him. if he's not ready for the big time at 22, then maybe he shouldn't be here.

 

also, do you think schenn has the offensive prowess of leach? right now, he is playing with simmonds (who never takes a shift off) and hartnell who create tons of space and opportunities for him. yet, most of the time, i am left wondering where schenn is.

 

i hope that couturier and schenn turn out to be superstars in this league. i really do. however, i have serious doubts about both players and if those doubts turn out to be true, then the flyers will be stuck in the mud for several more years.

 

time will tell.

Edited January 24, 2014 by caluso

[murraycraven]

you should be sorry to break it to us that schenn is a top 6 forward. only on this team would that be possible.

and, what are you basing your assessment of schenn on? his play off the ice? he disappears for weeks on end even though he is playing with 2 guys who create tons of space out there for him. you say he should play with "a jagr type or a briere type". he did - and that didn't turn out so well for him. i know schenn's young but he doesn't work hard enough out there, and effort has nothing to do with experience.

as for Couturier, he has an active stick and tries hard, but his skating is very, very poor.

 

come on man....   Schenn has played well and you are nuts if you think he would not be a top 6 on other teams in the NHL.   Stop it w the Cooter skating BS.  When exactly have you see his skating be an issue?  

[fanaticV3.0]

not out of line at all...   I think it is a fair assessment.  

 

I agree. He doesn't look like top 6 so far, but definitely top 9 and an important shorthanded player.

[fanaticV3.0]

My question is, "Was Couturier ever drafted to be a top 6 forward?"   Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't the buzz about him on draft day being a "Jordan Staal type" defensive first, shutdown 3rd line center with some offensive upside?   I'd say he's pacing himself to be that kind of player. 

 

I could have sworn when he was drafted all the talk about him was his offensive production in juniors. Then somewhere along the ling it turned into the Jordan Stall type, which I agree he's looking like, and I agree I'll take that. Gladly. I appreciate a good role player.

[caluso]

come on man....   Schenn has played well and you are nuts if you think he would not be a top 6 on other teams in the NHL.   Stop it w the Cooter skating BS.  When exactly have you see his skating be an issue?  

come on man, look at the numbers and take your o and b goggles off. schenn has been given every opportunity to succeed and his numbers are what they are: mediocre. i am not making his stats up and i am not blinded by my loyalty to the flyers. he is on pace for 49 points and yet you think he would be a first or second liner on every team. come on, man, wake up! with the exception of the devils, there isn't one other team in the east where schenn would be a top 6 guy. 

 

when have i seen coots' skating be an issue?  umm, every game. having said that, i love the way couturier plays the game. he cares. but let's be honest, his play this year has been wildly erratic and his reputation as a shutdown defender is taking a serious hit lately. just look at the numbers and put emotion aside: 23 points, minus 2. 

 

as i said, the future of this team is tied to these two guys and i hope they perform well. thus far, i have been disappointed

[fanaticV3.0]

Schenn is a top six forwar folks. Sorry to break it to you.

Coots gets no respect. The dude is a monster defensively. The way he plays is HUGE. In ways that Shemn will simply never be. The fact that he's feeling his oats offensively a bit now is just a great sign. Even when he's not scoring he's showing a lot more initiative.

Recently I feel like I've even started seeing him using his size and feeling confident enough to generate some speed.

He's a good player already and is only getting better.

Schenner needs consistency. It would be great if he could play with a jagr type or a Briere type. It's too bad VLC got hurt and appears to be coming back slowly, or I think Brayden would be learning a lot from him.

Right now I wouldn't make a trade unless it was for draft posioning AND the only if there was someone I really wanted.

Nonine's trading us weber before the Olympics, so there's no immediate hole to fill. The hole is time and experience.

Now that hey have mason and razor, they actually can rebuild. This is the deal. This is what it looks like. It ain't pretty when you play the "get ba to get good" card, but that's what we're playing so we gotta own it.

 

 

No he isn't. Not right now at least. He's not good enough offensively to warrant bumping anyone. I'm perfectly content with him as the prototypical 3rd line center. It suits his skill set and what he's shown us (so far) to a T.

[murraycraven]

come on man, look at the numbers and take your o and b goggles off.

 

Most that know me around here would say I am not the O&B kool aide type but whatever.

 

Schenn is still young and he has been one of the best forwards on the team.  I am not even a fan of BS but he is 4th on the team in points and is  a +4.   The 3 ahead of (jake, wayne and g) are all minus.   Oh yeah, and he is tied for the most GWG on the team as well (w /G).  I get that he goes MIA but a lot of young players do he same.

 

As for the skating issues w/ Cooter you are way over-exxagerating the case.  The kid is the best two way forward on the team who plays the PK.  His skating is a non issue.   You cant play the PK if you are a bad skater.   When has his skating been an issue? 

[fanaticV3.0]

All do respect fanatic what more veteran presence do you need? We have Timo, Grossman, Coburn is up there now, VL, Streit, Hartnell....we have enough vets already. 

 

This team is going to take its lumps they are still a growing team...I say we need more youth on defense...I would like the see the Flyers get some young run and gun kids on the defensive side because it is very slow right now. Better shooting from the point and better outlet passing.

 

They need a legit #1 defenseman and a winger for top line. Not someone who could be one one day, but someone who is one right now (or just starting to hit it). That doesn't mean the player has to be old, he just needs to be an established, proven player who has an impact. Bourdon is not the answer. Laughton is not the answer. They need someone who is in the league right now and playing at a high level of play.

 

There were rumors Subban wanted out of Montreal, and I would have loved to have him, but those rumors are gone. He's one example of I'm thinking of. He's an established player, who happens to be young. But if they go after someone who is 28-30 and still playing very well, I'm not complaining about that either.

[radoran]

They need a legit #1 defenseman and a winger for top line. Not someone who could be one one day, but someone who is one right now (or just starting to hit it). That doesn't mean the player has to be old, he just needs to be an established, proven player who has an impact. Bourdon is not the answer. Laughton is not the answer. They need someone who is in the league right now and playing at a high level of play.

 

There were rumors Subban wanted out of Montreal, and I would have loved to have him, but those rumors are gone. He's one example of I'm thinking of. He's an established player, who happens to be young. But if they go after someone who is 28-30 and still playing very well, I'm not complaining about that either.

 

Right, do you have any suggestions beyond Subban?

 

Because there aren't a lot of teams looking to rid themselves of a legit #1 defenceman and/or top line winger.

[murraycraven]

and a winger for top line

 

you mean like JvR

[fanaticV3.0]

Right, do you have any suggestions beyond Subban?

 

Because there aren't a lot of teams looking to rid themselves of a legit #1 defenceman and/or top line winger.

 

Then I guess they should just call it quits now then, eh?

[OccamsRazor]

The young kids are a huge part of the problem.

 

 i'm ok with the progression of the young kids....it's this blueline and watching their performance that scares me more than anything.

 

Still having to watch the braindead play of Coburn who seems like has been with this team for it seems a decade, yet he plays still like a rookie...

 

...then after having played with a great leader type in Kimmo and shown zero growth...for most of his time here this guy has all the tools but he needs to go because his mental game has shown no growth in years just dumb play after dumb play.

 

At least with Luke he is still young and bad too but Braydon is suppose to be a blueline corner stone yet....THAT IS THE PROBLEM...you're laying your foundation on a turd....time to ship him out after or with Mezz.

 

Let some of these young kids come up and maybe gain experience hell they easily can be cheaper and make just as dumb plays as Braydon and hell who knows they make actually show some growth cause God knows Coburns has flatlined for years out there....

 

i know i wasn't wanting to make a drastic trade but after last nights game i'm open to trading anyone and everyone on the current blueline....besides the young draft picks Morin, Hagg, Ghost and other the other so called vets trade em if ya can if anyone wants them....

[fanaticV3.0]

you mean like JvR

 

you mean like JvR

 

Meh. I'm not big on revisionist history or Monday morning quarterbacking. JVR was soft as **** here and I had no issue with moving him because of that. I can't assume he turns into the player he is right now without being traded.

 

A different environment can completely change a player. Jovanovski was thought of as a flop by the time his contract expired in Florida (the first time) and was thought as a much better player after that. Mark Bell and Kyle Calder were having themselves nice little careers until they left Chicago.

[fanaticV3.0]

Right, do you have any suggestions beyond Subban?

 

Because there aren't a lot of teams looking to rid themselves of a legit #1 defenceman and/or top line winger.

 

Sorry, I left my list of upcoming FAs or "who is unhappy with who" players in my other pants.

 

I don't follow other teams the way I used to and would have to bone up a little bit. What I do know is what this team needs and it's not inexperienced players or potential. Now if Bourdon and Laughton happen to make the team next year, there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't want a couple of established players though. I don't see why you couldn't do both. Truthfully, I think that's the approach they  need. You just throw a bunch of kids out there and they get torched.

[caluso]

Most that know me around here would say I am not the O&B kool aide type but whatever.

 

Schenn is still young and he has been one of the best forwards on the team.  I am not even a fan of BS but he is 4th on the team in points and is  a +4.   The 3 ahead of (jake, wayne and g) are all minus.   Oh yeah, and he is tied for the most GWG on the team as well (w /G).  I get that he goes MIA but a lot of young players do he same.

 

As for the skating issues w/ Cooter you are way over-exxagerating the case.  The kid is the best two way forward on the team who plays the PK.  His skating is a non issue.   You cant play the PK if you are a bad skater.   When has his skating been an issue? 

 

let's look at schenn's numbers in a different light: he is tied for 95th overall in the nhl. 

 

you still think he is a second line center on every team?

 

and, if you believe that schenn has been one of the best players on the team, we really have to agree to disagree. 

[radoran]

Sorry, I left my list of upcoming FAs or "who is unhappy with who" players in my other pants.

 

I don't follow other teams the way I used to and would have to bone up a little bit. What I do know is what this team needs and it's not inexperienced players or potential. Now if Bourdon and Laughton happen to make the team next year, there's nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean I still wouldn't want a couple of established players though. I don't see why you couldn't do both. Truthfully, I think that's the approach they  need. You just throw a bunch of kids out there and they get torched.

 

Here, let me google that for you: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/

 

But if only there was some place that could break that down by just who is a UFA and by position: http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=D&fa_type_id=2

 

I was seriously asking, because I haven't gotten a credible answer on that from anybody. The point is, I concur with your identification of their "needs" but that doesn't mean there is an immediate "fix" available.

 

Which has been the Flyers' problem. They have been insistent that the solution to their immediate problem was right in front of them for years.

 

Need a #1 Center? Sign him to an eight year contract, give him a NMC and then complain he's not performing as a wing two years later when the two centers you had just drafted were pushing for 1/2 line duty. Buy him out.

 

Need a goalie? Sign a guy to a nine-year, $56M deal with a no movement clause. Blow up your team to allow the cap space to work. Be amazed things are a disaster two years later when you buy the goalie out.

 

Need a puck moving defenseman? Sign a 35-year-old to a four year deal. After resigning your 38-year-old defenceman for $6M (with a NMC). 

 

Have a top six winger and top pair defenceman coming up as a UFA? Let them walk and chase after two guys who said they didn't want to come here. Then throw $68 Million in signing bonuses at an RFA. Come away with nothing.

 

I'm not asking "who" to be a jerk about it, I'm asking because that's the next step in the discussion. We all agree that they need a true #1 D. I don't know anyone who doesn't believe that.

 

But stating the problem is a lot easier than answering it.

 

When it comes to a Top Six forward. Honestly, I don't know where VLC fits into the lineup  They simply don't need him at center and he simply isn't a wing. But he's here and we'll have to get used to it.

 

http://www.capgeek.com/free-agents/?year_id=2014&team_id=-1&position_id=F&fa_type_id=2

 

Do they throw the bank at Vanek? Will they take a shot at an Iginla or Heatley? Moulson?

 

Danny Cleary will be available...

[doom88]

The Flyers can't add a number one defenseman now, as none are available. They need to double down on development, and hope someone pans out or surprises.

[aziz]

also, there are dozens of players in this league who are younger than schenn yet are out - playing, outscoring him. if he's not ready for the big time at 22, then maybe he shouldn't be here.

 

i count...11 players the same age or younger outscoring b schenn.  

[mojo1917]

@aziz so is that a canadian dozen ?

 

certainly not "dozens"

[aziz]

@mojo1917

 

you know, i get his frustration with the effort side of things, but his idea that age is completely irrelevant mystifies.  the kid is a work in progress, the fact that he isn't a complete package, utterly solid roster player at 22 only means that he has work to do.  he is better this season than last, and was better last than the one before that.  the trend is in the right direction.

 

i think he really thinks there are 30 or 40 20 yearolds in the league playing like 30 yearold vets, scoring at a point per game and always knowing exactly what they are supposed to do.

[doom88]

@mojo1917

you know, i get his frustration with the effort side of things, but his idea that age is completely irrelevant mystifies. the kid is a work in progress, the fact that he isn't a complete package, utterly solid roster player at 22 only means that he has work to do. he is better this season than last, and was better last than the one before that. the trend is in the right direction.

i think he really thinks there are 30 or 40 20 yearolds in the league playing like 30 yearold vets, scoring at a point per game and always knowing exactly what they are supposed to do.

I think several people would fall into that culture. Well stated Aziz.

[murraycraven]

let's look at schenn's numbers in a different light: he is tied for 95th overall in the nhl.

you still think he is a second line center on every team?

and, if you believe that schenn has been one of the best players on the team, we really have to agree to disagree.

I never once said he was a second line center on every team so not sure what you are talking about. But, you keep referring stats and he has the 4th best on the team...

[jammer2]

@mojo1917

 

you know, i get his frustration with the effort side of things, but his idea that age is completely irrelevant mystifies.  the kid is a work in progress, the fact that he isn't a complete package, utterly solid roster player at 22 only means that he has work to do.  he is better this season than last, and was better last than the one before that.  the trend is in the right direction.

 

i think he really thinks there are 30 or 40 20 yearolds in the league playing like 30 yearold vets, scoring at a point per game and always knowing exactly what they are supposed to do.

 

 That was the true underlying message when I compared Leach's early stats to Schenn's....he is trending upwards, showing progress and that is the important thing. Players are not even close to a finished product at 22, they are learning on the fly in the best league in the world. In a league where a half a second is a lifetime, the little nuances don't come easy....and it hurts production numbers. I will admit I'd like to see a bit more hustle out of B.Schenn, but overall, I'm happy with his progress. Imagine if somebody said Leach's numbers were mediocre, and demoted him to the 3rd line before his break out 4th season?

 

 Let's see how he hustles in the post season, where it counts before judging his work ethic.