Revisiting the Kessel, Seguin Moves

[Polaris922]

Didn't see the game (congrats), but what a stud Seguin is. Boston has to be kicking themselves after that trade. If you look back on it, Boston is the loser in the Kessel trade.

I agree. Ericsson hasn't really amounted to much yet, though he has been hurt. Edited March 19, 2014 by radoran
split from hijacked thread :D

[flyercanuck]

Didn't see the game (congrats), but what a stud Seguin is. Boston has to be kicking themselves after that trade. If you look back on it, Boston is the loser in the Kessel trade. 

 

 

 Really?

 

 Let's see, they've won a cup, and been in another. Erickson hasn't been great, yet. But they've got a heck of a young player in Reilly Smith and another in Dougie Hamilton  Morrow is their best D prospect and Knight is their best on wing. So far the Bruins are the winner because they won a cup. And if you don't want to count that, at least give ALL those young players Boston has acquired that'll keep them ahead of the Leafs for yet another decade or more a chance to develop...since that trade looked lobsided Bostons way when it was first made.

 

 They gave up a top 5, and then the 2nd overall for the future. You can't declare a winner when most of what went the other way are still developing, and well. Boston could end up with FIVE good NHLers.

[ruxpin]

Really?

Let's see, they've won a cup, and been in another. Erickson hasn't been great, yet. But they've got a heck of a young player in Reilly Smith and another in Dougie Hamilton Morrow is their best D prospect and Knight is their best on wing. So far the Bruins are the winner because they won a cup. And if you don't want to count that, at least give ALL those young players Boston has acquired that'll keep them ahead of the Leafs for yet another decade or more a chance to develop...since that trade looked lobsided Bostons way when it was first made.

They gave up a top 5, and then the 2nd overall for the future. You can't declare a winner when most of what went the other way are still developing, and well. Boston could end up with FIVE good NHLers.

You HAVE to count the Cup, in my opinion. A Cup and a second finals in the bank and even money on another finals this year. Meanwhile, the Leafs have been meh and the Stars won't make the playoffs.

The Bruins shed some big money and got some prospects and are no worse for it. If they pull off another Cup this year, who cares what Kessel or Seguin do down the road.

Again, just my opinion, but the Bruins can already not do less than a draw on the Kessel trade. They win the Cup this year, the Kessel trade is a win and Seguin is at very least a draw.

[Polaris922]

@flyercanuck

@ruxpin

Seguin contributed to the Cup run for certain, and I can see the argument for it. However, I think if you just look at player vs player, not crediting them as individuals for a team win, I agree that Boston lost those trades. They've clearly done many other things right, but in the nature of your points, would they have won a second if they'd kept Seguin? Would they have won 2 or maybe 0 if they'd kept Kessel? Who knows?

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 Kessel has been in the league for 8 years. FOUR of the pieces the Bruins acquired have a combined grand total of 201 NHL games. They are 21, 22, 22 and 22 years old. Plus Erickson. How can you declare Toronto a winner when Bosoton has a handful of players just starting their careers, yet already won a cup and appeared in another AFTER the trade?

[ruxpin]

@Polaris922

 

 Kessel has been in the league for 8 years. FOUR of the pieces the Bruins acquired have a combined grand total of 201 NHL games. They are 21, 22, 22 and 22 years old. Plus Erickson. How can you declare Toronto a winner when Bosoton has a handful of players just starting their careers, yet already won a cup and appeared in another AFTER the trade?

 

Completely agree.   I think both trades (BOS/TOR and BOS/DAL) are probably an example of win/win for all clubs involved, but if I'm a Bruins fan and they win a second Cup this year--and maybe if they just go to the finals--there is no way I call the Bruins losers in either of these trades.  Plus, they have some very good young players to show for it.

 

I know the old saying that the team getting the best player in the trade wins.  And this is often quite true.  But in this case, when the other team goes on to be as good as the Bruins are and the people they got back are contributing to that success, there's no way that is a loss.

 

And when in both cases the "best player" going the other way gets his new team to be also-ran (Kessel) or miss the playoffs altogether (Sequin), then again, how do you call THAT a win for those teams?   5 years from now, if both Sequin and Kessel are still in top 5 in scoring and their clubs are doing well, then it's a now vs. later thing maybe and it's a draw (I think this scenario is likely).  And who's to say Sequin gets the ice time needed for his current numbers if he's still in Boston?  I doubt it.  

 

Draw at worst for the Bruins.   And if a draw includes a Cup and two finals, I'l take that draw every time.

[Vanflyer]

I agree. Ericsson hasn't really amounted to much yet, though he has been hurt.

 

Again. Tyler is going to surpass Ericssons career highs this year.  22 year old Tyler, v. 28 year old Ericsson. 

[flyercanuck]

@ruxpin

 

 Would the Leafs be a better team with Seguin AND Hamilton AND Knight? Whose to say they'd even have picked them (Seguin was a no-brainer but this IS the Leafs). But me personally, I'll take the latter over Kessel. I'm not sure how many who are calling the Leafs winners actually watch them play the games, or are just watching highlights. He looks great in highlights. But when you watch him put forth zero effort 99% of the time when he doesn't have the puck it just rubs me the wrong way.

[flyercanuck]

Again. Tyler is going to surpass Ericssons career highs this year.  22 year old Tyler, v. 28 year old Ericsson. 

 

 But again, it wasn't Kessel for Seguin straight up, and it wasn't Seguin for Erickson straight up. The Bruins traded Kessel and got a few years of Seguin, then Erickson, plus Hamilton, Smith, Morrow and Knight.

[Vanflyer]

Completely agree.   I think both trades (BOS/TOR and BOS/DAL) are probably an example of win/win for all clubs involved, but if I'm a Bruins fan and they win a second Cup this year--and maybe if they just go to the finals--there is no way I call the Bruins losers in either of these trades.  Plus, they have some very good young players to show for it.

 

I know the old saying that the team getting the best player in the trade wins.  And this is often quite true.  But in this case, when the other team goes on to be as good as the Bruins are and the people they got back are contributing to that success, there's no way that is a loss.

 

And when in both cases the "best player" going the other way gets his new team to be also-ran (Kessel) or miss the playoffs altogether (Sequin), then again, how do you call THAT a win for those teams?   5 years from now, if both Sequin and Kessel are still in top 5 in scoring and their clubs are doing well, then it's a now vs. later thing maybe and it's a draw (I think this scenario is likely).  And who's to say Sequin gets the ice time needed for his current numbers if he's still in Boston?  I doubt it.  

 

Draw at worst for the Bruins.   And if a draw includes a Cup and two finals, I'l take that draw every time.

 

I retract my comment. 

 

http://nesn.com/2014/01/tyler-seguin-trade-showing-potential-to-make-winners-out-of-all-parties-involved/

 

Stupid is as stupid does. 

[Polaris922]

I'm not arguing the Bruins will win out in the long run with the prospects and what not... but again, player for player, Seguin has taken off, Kessel has done very well with Toronto now...  Erickson has been injury laden and though Smith has been good but not on par with Kessel and Seguin.  

 

Yes Boston won a Cup, but they may very well have done that with Kessel as well, or maybe two.  Or a second with Seguin.  I don't attribute a team achievement to the individual deals.  

 

When comparing the deal, I think it's safe to say both sides won, much as the article @Vanflyer posted states, because Boston will reap the rewards for the near future.  But on a pure player vs. player comparison, Boston has very little to show for it on their roster right now.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Polaris922

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

 THAT, I can agree with.

[Evilmonkey]

I'm not arguing the Bruins will win out in the long run with the prospects and what not... but again, player for player, Seguin has taken off, Kessel has done very well with Toronto now...  Erickson has been injury laden and though Smith has been good but not on par with Kessel and Seguin.  

 

Yes Boston won a Cup, but they may very well have done that with Kessel as well, or maybe two.  Or a second with Seguin.  I don't attribute a team achievement to the individual deals.  

 

When comparing the deal, I think it's safe to say both sides won, much as the article @Vanflyer posted states, because Boston will reap the rewards for the near future.  But on a pure player vs. player comparison, Boston has very little to show for it on their roster right now.

Agreed pretty much bang on

[Lightning fan]

Hard to argue with what Chia has done so far; Boston is pretty good and the favourite to come out of East. Still, it looks like Dallas 'won' the deal. Seguin is a great player, but maybe he truly needed a change of scenery to live up to his potential - it certainly was a wakeup call for him. And Smith hasn't been to shabby for the Bruins so far. 

 

Kessel has matured and improved by leaps and bounds since his Boston days IMO, and it makes the trade easier to stomach for Leafs fans. Still, I reckon the Leafs would be quite a bit better off having Seguin AND Hamilton on their roster. As of right now I'd take Seguin over Kessel, no questions asked, but maybe that's just me. Hamilton is developing nicely, too; I very much doubt Hamilton would be where he is now in the Leafs' messy defensive system, but I'd like to think he would make the Leafs better.

Edited March 20, 2014 by Lightning fan

[jammer2]

  We can take this in a slightly different direction, not intending to sidetrack the idea of the thread....but thought it would be fun to revisit the Tyler vs Taylor saga. Hall is 3 months older than Seguin, so age is not really a factor. Right now, if they both played 82 regular season games, Tyler Seguin is on pace for 88 pts, and Taylor Hall is on pace for 82. Pretty damn close race. I think Tyler has a bit of an edge teammate wise, cause the Oilers don't have anyone as talented as Benn.....man oh man, that Benn/Seguin combo is just deadly.

 

 I'm thinking Tyler Seguin turns into a triple digit performer next season, 100 pts, and I can see Hall moving up to 90 or so. As far as value goes, they are really close, a 100 pt center is a bit harder to come by than a 90 pt winger....although both are basically impossible tasks to achieve in today's NHL. Yes, that was a nice year to finish in the bottom 2, huh? In the end, I'd rather have Seguin, just because Hall's style of bull rushing the net will inevitably lead to a lot more injuries.

[Polaris922]

 I think Tyler has a bit of an edge teammate wise, cause the Oilers don't have anyone as talented as Benn.....

 

They have RNH and Eberle...  They're pretty damn good players.  

[jammer2]

@Polaris922  Oh, I agree....Nugent Hopkins and Eberle are solid players, but I don't think either one is close to the talent level that Benn has. That's why those two watched the Olympics from home while Benn was winning the Gold.

[Lightning fan]

Don't look now but Seguin has 2 less points than Kessel in 4 less games, and Hamilton plays 20 minutes a night for one of the best defensive teams in the league.

[yave1964]

Wonderful subject!!

 

  To me it begins and ends with the Cup, the reason teams play the game. The Bruins won a cup with Seguin and went to another.

 

Essentially the trade as it is now:

 

Leafs have Kessel, one of the top ten, arguably one of the top five players in the game.

 

Bruins have: Dougie Hamilton, a top 4 d-man, arguably better, for the next decade Knight, still a good prospect. Reilly Smith a top six forward who is still growing and Eriksson who has had a lost season but is still young and pre injury was an all star.  Add in the cup, and although Kessel is the best player the Bruins have the edge.

 

  Now the deal between Boston and Dallas, the Stars took them to the cleaners. A kid like Seguin who has been a perfect match with Benn has them on the edge of the playoffs and look like one of the most exciting duo's in the game. They gave up a white chip and a red chip and added a Blue chip as well as the tragic case of Peverley.

So the three teams involved:

1. Bruins

2. Stars (Until they win a cup)

3. Leafs (See comment on Stars)

 

  I also want to add with no attempt to insult Kessel, I love his style but I am not certain a team with him as its best player will ever win a cup.

[ruxpin]

Wonderful subject!!

 

  To me it begins and ends with the Cup, the reason teams play the game. The Bruins won a cup with Seguin and went to another.

 

Essentially the trade as it is now:

 

Leafs have Kessel, one of the top ten, arguably one of the top five players in the game.

 

Bruins have: Dougie Hamilton, a top 4 d-man, arguably better, for the next decade Knight, still a good prospect. Reilly Smith a top six forward who is still growing and Eriksson who has had a lost season but is still young and pre injury was an all star.  Add in the cup, and although Kessel is the best player the Bruins have the edge.

 

  Now the deal between Boston and Dallas, the Stars took them to the cleaners. A kid like Seguin who has been a perfect match with Benn has them on the edge of the playoffs and look like one of the most exciting duo's in the game. They gave up a white chip and a red chip and added a Blue chip as well as the tragic case of Peverley.

So the three teams involved:

1. Bruins

2. Stars (Until they win a cup)

3. Leafs (See comment on Stars)

 

  I also want to add with no attempt to insult Kessel, I love his style but I am not certain a team with him as its best player will ever win a cup.

 

 

Nicely summarized.  I'll jump on this bandwagon.

[Polaris922]

(Duplicate)

Edited March 23, 2014 by Polaris922

[Polaris922]

@yave1964

Team success isn't an indicator of individual player success. That's the only issue with these kinds of arguments. Maybe with Kessel the Bruins win the first AND second SCF. Maybe they don't win either? Maybe with Seguin they win the second? There's just no way to know.

[jammer2]

  I saw one of the behind the scenes shows about the Bruins, and the main brain thrust of the Bruins sat around a round table and discussed the Seguin deal. The best excuse they could find for the trade is the Seguin does not play "Bruin hockey".....LOL, he looks ok to me. Maybe they did have concerns about the partying aspect and could not say that on the show. 

[Polaris922]

  I saw one of the behind the scenes shows about the Bruins, and the main brain thrust of the Bruins sat around a round table and discussed the Seguin deal. The best excuse they could find for the trade is the Seguin does not play "Bruin hockey".....LOL, he looks ok to me. Maybe they did have concerns about the partying aspect and could not say that on the show. 

 

I'd like to know what Bruins hockey is!  I'm still trying to figure out what Flyers hockey is, and now I have ANOTHER mystery! 

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

Team success isn't an indicator of individual player success. That's the only issue with these kinds of arguments. Maybe with Kessel the Bruins win the first AND second SCF. Maybe they don't win either? Maybe with Seguin they win the second? There's just no way to know.

 

 

 I agree with your first sentence. But the whole idea behind trades is to make your team better to win the cup. The Bruins did this by trading Kessel. They won the cup. Kessel wasn't liked in the Bruins dressing room and they definately play a team game, which kessel doesn't..So just from a guess they don't win the one cup, let alone two WITH Phil, but there's no proof. But they did in fact win one. 

 

 Personally I'd take Seguin straight up over him.  We're seeing what Kessel can do for the Leafs without their real MVP, Bernier.