Braydenn Schenn to 4th line

[Vanflyer]

Agreed. Although my phone still suggests "sucks" as the next word every time I type "VLC."

 

as compared to "sucks donkey balls" when you type in "Downie"?? 

[King Knut]

I personally don't think Schenn is playing poorly.

It's just that for the hype of the top prospect in hockey two years ago to his salary, the kid just isn't living up to any of that yet.

He's a good player. $3 mil at 21 good? Not a chance.

I guess it all works out for us if homer can negotiate cheaper resign than he would have had to have shelled out if Schenn was playing 20 minutes a game and scoring 70 points.

He's not a bust, just not living up to the hype yet. I don't want to JVR the kid. I think he's good!

VLC on the other hand is finally doing some good on the 4th line which sucks because it seems if he'd been at center all year he'd have been much much better all year, but at least we figured it out before the playoffs!

I just don't get this fatality approach. He had a very good game. More shots than vinny, same fo % no giveaways. 5 hits (a couple of them on the large side). Yet people want to say put up or shut-up.

The way its rolling now, its fine. If we have anything to biotch about its the team readiness, lack of in game focus, and support. Schenn is the least of our worries.

That said, I do see that VLC is skating allot more better than before AND creating chances nearly every time he is on the ice. Not sure if its the kick in the teeth or the move back to center, but I will acknowledge he is earning his do-re-mi these days.

[King Knut]

I personally don't think Schenn is playing poorly.

It's just that for the hype of the top prospect in hockey two years ago to his salary, the kid just isn't living up to any of that yet.

He's a good player. $3 mil at 21 good? Not a chance.

I guess it all works out for us if homer can negotiate cheaper resign than he would have had to have shelled out if Schenn was playing 20 minutes a game and scoring 70 points.

He's not a bust, just not living up to the hype yet. I don't want to JVR the kid. I think he's good!

VLC on the other hand is finally doing some good on the 4th line which sucks because it seems if he'd been at center all year he'd have been much much better all year, but at least we figured it out before the playoffs!

I just don't get this fatality approach. He had a very good game. More shots than vinny, same fo % no giveaways. 5 hits (a couple of them on the large side). Yet people want to say put up or shut-up.

The way its rolling now, its fine. If we have anything to biotch about its the team readiness, lack of in game focus, and support. Schenn is the least of our worries.

That said, I do see that VLC is skating allot more better than before AND creating chances nearly every time he is on the ice. Not sure if its the kick in the teeth or the move back to center, but I will acknowledge he is earning his do-re-mi these days.

[flyercanuck]

I personally don't think Schenn is playing poorly.

It's just that for the hype of the top prospect in hockey two years ago to his salary, the kid just isn't living up to any of that yet.

He's a good player. $3 mil at 21 good? Not a chance.

I guess it all works out for us if homer can negotiate cheaper resign than he would have had to have shelled out if Schenn was playing 20 minutes a game and scoring 70 points.

He's not a bust, just not living up to the hype yet. I don't want to JVR the kid. I think he's good!

VLC on the other hand is finally doing some good on the 4th line which sucks because it seems if he'd been at center all year he'd have been much much better all year, but at least we figured it out before the playoffs!

 

 

 

Schenns caphit is $870,000

[ruxpin]

as compared to "sucks donkey balls" when you type in "Downie"??

Exactly.

[fanaticV3.0]

That's the thing. In juniors he was very good defensively and offensively. Size, skating, good shooter, excellent passer and strong two way play with great hockey sense.

 

Hockey's future had him listed at an 8.5 probability, which is a step below a Datsyuk/Thornton caliber ceiling, but above a Richards type.

 

But his rating also us a C, which means he could drop 2 spots to 3rd line player, 5th/6th defenseman, etc

 

Right now, that looks like the case

 

All I think is his chances

 

Having seen him as a pro for a few seasons now, I actually have a hard time believing that. As a pro, the defensive talent isn't there at all. I have a hard time believing he had it and simply doesn't try and use it now.

Edited April 9, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[radoran]

Having seen him as a pro for a few seasons now, I actually have a hard time believing that. As a pro, the defensive talent isn't there at all. I have a hard time believing he had it and simply doesn't try and use it now.

 

If you want to look at "progression" as a player, he's a career -17 and was -8 last season, but is even this year. Yes, caveat for

 

Meaning that in 79 games, teams have only scored 16 even strength goals against his line.

 

That's not terrible.

 

He's not a defensive monster like Richards, but he certainly has the ability to center a line that will spend more time in the O zone than the D zone.

[fanaticV3.0]

If you want to look at "progression" as a player, he's a career -17 and was -8 last season, but is even this year. Yes, caveat for +/- as a stat

 

Meaning that in 79 games, teams have only scored 16 even strength goals against his line.

 

That's not terrible.

 

He's not a defensive monster like Richards, but he certainly has the ability to center a line that will spend more time in the O zone than the D zone.

 

"Not terrible" is about as complimentary as I'll get in regards to his defensive play. He's not the worst, but he's not our top PKer or anything. He's not a PKer period (as of this point in his professional career).

[brelic]

If you want to look at "progression" as a player, he's a career -17 and was -8 last season, but is even this year. Yes, caveat for

 

Meaning that in 79 games, teams have only scored 16 even strength goals against his line.

 

That's not terrible.

 

He's not a defensive monster like Richards, but he certainly has the ability to center a line that will spend more time in the O zone than the D zone.

 

Brayden Schenn is one of the most sheltered players on this team. The only ones with a lower QoC (that play regularly) are his brother, Hall, Rinaldo, and Rosehill.

 

THat's not to say he can't be good against better quality opponents, but Berube is certainly sheltering him.

[Vanflyer]

I personally don't think Schenn is playing poorly.
It's just that for the hype of the top prospect in hockey two years ago to his salary, the kid just isn't living up to any of that yet.

He's a good player. $3 mil at 21 good? Not a chance.

 

Not for nothing, but B. Schenn is still on his entry level contract, making 870K per year. 

 

http://www.capgeek.com/flyers

 

Carry on. 

[Vanflyer]

He's not a defensive monster like Richards, but he certainly has the ability to center a line that will spend more time in the O zone than the D zone.

 

While Richards puts up a -4 this year playing on a defensive LA King team and scoring less goals than Schenn. (where is the snickers icon?). oh....forgot, making 5.75m per year, while Schenn is on his entry level contract of 875k per year (snickers more). 

[radoran]

Brayden Schenn is one of the most sheltered players on this team. The only ones with a lower QoC (that play regularly) are his brother, Hall, Rinaldo, and Rosehill.

 

THat's not to say he can't be good against better quality opponents, but Berube is certainly sheltering him.

 

As you would expect.

 

While Richards puts up a -4 this year playing on a defensive LA King team and scoring less goals than Schenn. (where is the snickers icon?). oh....forgot, making 5.75m per year, while Schenn is on his entry level contract of 875k per year (snickers more). 

 

At 22, Richards was +14, the next year he was +22. Schenn isn't on that level at this point in his defensive development.

 

Richards is also making $5.75M a year for the next six years. Schenn won't be making $5.75M for - at best - several years from now.

 

Snickers Satisfies!

[Vanflyer]

At 22, Richards was +14, the next year he was +22. Schenn isn't on that level at this point in his defensive development.

 

case in point. But, you have to remember where that tutelage of defense first mentality came from (themakers honey maker).  Don't get me wrong. I really like Richards and really, really liked him in Juniors.  

 

All I am saying is that Schenn has skill. He is young. Is not a big cap hit (nor will his next contract be) and why give up on him? Trade bate, fine. But not for a L. Schenn / Jvr type of deal. 

[Vanflyer]

Brayden Schenn is one of the most sheltered players on this team. The only ones with a lower QoC (that play regularly) are his brother, Hall, Rinaldo, and Rosehill.

 

I am seriously pleading ignorance here. What does that mean? Particularly QoC and sheltered? Does that mean that Berube turns a blind eye?? Knowing what I know about Berube's style, I think he holds every man accountable. I don't see much coddling in his demeanor. Coaxing, sure, but coddling (if I am reading between the lines of what you are saying), definitely not. He (Berube) grew up threw the school of hard knocks and to suggest that he will let any player get a "pass" is absurd to me. Just go ask VLC. 

[radoran]

case in point. But, you have to remember where that tutelage of defense first mentality came from (themakers honey maker).  Don't get me wrong. I really like Richards and really, really liked him in Juniors.  

 

All I am saying is that Schenn has skill. He is young. Is not a big cap hit (nor will his next contract be) and why give up on him? Trade bate, fine. But not for a L. Schenn / Jvr type of deal. 

 

QFT, brother!

 

What does that mean? Particularly QoC

 

FWIW, QoC is "Quality of Competition" - an "advanced" stat.

[brelic]

I am seriously pleading ignorance here. What does that mean? Particularly QoC and sheltered? Does that mean that Berube turns a blind eye?? Knowing what I know about Berube's style, I think he holds every man accountable. I don't see much coddling in his demeanor. Coaxing, sure, but coddling (if I am reading between the lines of what you are saying), definitely not. He (Berube) grew up threw the school of hard knocks and to suggest that he will let any player get a "pass" is absurd to me. Just go ask VLC. 

 

What @radoran said. I don't profess to understand all of the advanced stats, but yeah, basically it is an indication that Schenn's line is matched against low quality lines on the other team. And a high % of his faceoffs are in the offensive zone, where losing the FO is not as big a deal as in the defensive zone, where Berube will usually defer to a guy like Couturier. 

 

So, yeah, he's 'sheltered' against situations that he can't / might not be able to handle. 

 

That said, I like the guy, I like the progress he's making, and I hope we keep him around. He's still young and developing.

[King Knut]

His first three years he's been on a bonus schedule that guarantees him entry level but he can make as much as 3 mil depending on how he does on the ice.  IT was a hold over from LA.  he's never met the 3 million, but we won't really know how much his cap hit is until the end of the season each year so they've had to budget for that.

 

Not for nothing, but B. Schenn is still on his entry level contract, making 870K per year.

[King Knut]

His first three years he's been on a bonus schedule that guarantees him entry level but he can make as much as 3 mil depending on how he does on the ice.  IT was a hold over from LA.  he's never met the 3 million, but we won't really know how much his cap hit is until the end of the season each year so they've had to budget for that.

 

Not for nothing, but B. Schenn is still on his entry level contract, making 870K per year.

[radoran]

His first three years he's been on a bonus schedule that guarantees him entry level but he can make as much as 3 mil depending on how he does on the ice.  IT was a hold over from LA.  he's never met the 3 million, but we won't really know how much his cap hit is until the end of the season each year so they've had to budget for that.

 

Schenn's "big" bonuses are ridiculous and virtually unachievable.

 

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=377385

 

The ‘B’ bonuses in the first two years of his contract would have paid Schenn $1.265 million and $1.405 million if he played 25 minutes in each of the 82 regular season games.

 

By way of comparison, Crosby - the top TOI forward in the league - plays an average of 21:54. Schenn didn't. In the whole league there were ten (10) players who are averaging 25+ minutes a game this season - all defensemen. Of them, five have played every game.

 

This year, he doesn't have to play the 25 minutes in all regular season games to earn a $1.5 million dollar bonus, but to qualify he would have to have an All-Star season, finish among the league's point leaders and win a major award.

 

Clearly that didn't and won't happen.

 

He will pull down $850K in 'A' bonuses and has a salary of $810K this season - so he'll take home $1.66M. Flyers will address the "A" levels either with extra space in this year's cap or next year's.

 

As @aziz notes below, the bonuses go into the "cushion" (thanks to the fun renegotiation of 2013)

[aziz]

@King Knut

 

HOW DO PERFORMANCE BONUSES COUNT AGAINST THE CAP?

Under the collective bargaining agreement struck in 2013, a performance bonus cushion is in place for all years of the deal, including the last one in 2021-22.

The performance bonus cushion allows teams to exceed the upper limit with performance bonuses to a maximum of 7.5 percent of the upper limit.

For example, if the upper limit is $64,300,000, teams can exceed it by $4,822,500 in performance bonuses. Any performances bonuses in excess of that total do not fall into the cushion and are counted as part of the team's cap payroll.

http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-do-performance-bonuses-count-against-the-cap

the flyers have a total of $3.2mil in bonuses *possible*.  which is to say, there is no way they can go over the bonus cushion.  which is to say, there is no reason to think about schenn's cap hit as anything more than $870k.

[ruxpin]

@King Knut

 

HOW DO PERFORMANCE BONUSES COUNT AGAINST THE CAP?

Under the collective bargaining agreement struck in 2013, a performance bonus cushion is in place for all years of the deal, including the last one in 2021-22.

The performance bonus cushion allows teams to exceed the upper limit with performance bonuses to a maximum of 7.5 percent of the upper limit.

For example, if the upper limit is $64,300,000, teams can exceed it by $4,822,500 in performance bonuses. Any performances bonuses in excess of that total do not fall into the cushion and are counted as part of the team's cap payroll.

http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-do-performance-bonuses-count-against-the-cap

the flyers have a total of $3.2mil in bonuses *possible*.  which is to say, there is no way they can go over the bonus cushion.  which is to say, there is no reason to think about schenn's cap hit as anything more than $870k.

 

I'm not arguing the point (I simply don't know enough about it and with the hours I'm working at the moment, the concept is scrambling my brain), but just simply intended as a question:  If what you're saying is the case, why do they have the full $3.xM as his cap hit on nhlnumbers.com ?   I actually never considered the bonus amount until I saw it and thought (still do) it would be the $870K.   Just wondering why nhlnumbers.com bothers to use that ceiling amount.  Ideas?

[doom88]

The full bonus used to count until it was unachievable (hence scratching Schenn game one). Capgeek is the better source for info now.

[aziz]

I'm not arguing the point (I simply don't know enough about it and with the hours I'm working at the moment, the concept is scrambling my brain), but just simply intended as a question:  If what you're saying is the case, why do they have the full $3.xM as his cap hit on nhlnumbers.com ?   I actually never considered the bonus amount until I saw it and thought (still do) it would be the $870K.   Just wondering why nhlnumbers.com bothers to use that ceiling amount.  Ideas?

 

because nhlnumbers.com is run by a guy who is...just a guy.  way more motivation than any of us here, with the updates and all, but just a dude who makes mistakes.  i emailed him a few seasons ago to explain two-way contracts to him, because he had them wrong on the site.  he gets most of his info from capgeek (really, just another guy, but even more motivated and detail oriented), and puts it in a nice easily accessible format, but.  makes mistakes.

 

there was always a bonus cushion.  most all entry level contracts have a bunch of bonuses written in ("hey, yeah, if you play 25 minutes a night in all 82 games, sure, extra million bucks to you, now sign the deal"), but the bonuses were essentially ignored, because the cushion would take care of them (unless you had patrick kane and jonathan toews on entry level deals).  the one exception was the last year of the last CBA, because no one knew what the landscape would look like after, so no cushion, teams were expected to assume all bonuses were going to be earned until they were unearnable (first week cleared a lot of the "play all 82 games" bonuses from the slate, for example).  new CBA, bonus cushion back, and no reason to sweat entry level bonuses anymore.  unless you have a weird confluence of really young top flight talent.

 

bottom line, evaluate schenn as an $870k forward, not a $3mil forward.  and 20g, 21p isn't bad at that kind of money.

[Vanflyer]

His first three years he's been on a bonus schedule that guarantees him entry level but he can make as much as 3 mil depending on how he does on the ice.  IT was a hold over from LA.  he's never met the 3 million, but we won't really know how much his cap hit is until the end of the season each year so they've had to budget for that.

 

But I don't mind that. In fact, I really like performance / incentive based contracts. So, if his cap hit goes up, that means he is meeting those incentives, which is a good thing. 

[Vanflyer]

Just wondering why nhlnumbers.com bothers to use that ceiling amount.  Ideas?

 

At //www.capgeek.com/player/1624 they show the 870k as his cap hit and then 2.35M as p bonus, which aligns to what Aziz is stating from the cba.