Is Bylsma fighting for his job?

[brelic]

Seriously though, Bylsma's comment was 100% tongue in cheek. I dunno why anyone is even talking about it.

 

No, his original comment wasn't tongue in cheek. That's not the kind of thing you say as a joke. He was probably pissed and annoyed at how they lost. He tried to save himself some embarrassment by later saying it was a joke. Haha, so Bylsma backtracks on his original comment by saying he was joking about his player's heart attack? Not sure which one is dumber

 

Do you think Bylsma is fighting for his job? In other words, if he's one and done (or loses in the 2nd round), do you think he will be let go?

[pilldoc]

 

Do you think Bylsma is fighting for his job? In other words, if he's one and done (or loses in the 2nd round), do you think he will be let go?

 

Personally and IMO, I think the Pens have to make the SCF in order for Bylsma to save his job and at least make a series of it.  If they have early playoff exits this year like last years no show vs the Bruins, I just don't see how Mario and company keep him on for next year.  Pens fans will be screaming for Bylsma's head to be served on a silver platter.

[brelic]

Personally and IMO, I think the Pens have to make the SCF in order for Bylsma to save his job and at least make a series of it.  If they have early playoff exits this year like last years no show vs the Bruins, I just don't see how Mario and company keep him on for next year.  Pens fans will be screaming for Bylsma's head to be served on a silver platter.

 

That makes sense. But if we take yesterday's game, for example, the Penguins utterly dominated the Flyers. We were hanging on for dear life for half the game! We made the most of our chances - which teams need to do in the playoffs. But let's face it - Fleury gifted a few goals.

 

So, if Fleury plays like that in the postseason, and they have an early exit, is the focus still on Bylsma? 

[pilldoc]

That makes sense. But if we take yesterday's game, for example, the Penguins utterly dominated the Flyers. We were hanging on for dear life for half the game! We made the most of our chances - which teams need to do in the playoffs. But let's face it - Fleury gifted a few goals.

 

So, if Fleury plays like that in the postseason, and they have an early exit, is the focus still on Bylsma? 

 

good point...I will only counter that argument with this point.  I think you will have to look at the entire body of work (know as the playoffs) and not just an isolated game or two.  With that being said, you make a very good compelling argument.

[ruxpin]

That makes sense. But if we take yesterday's game, for example, the Penguins utterly dominated the Flyers. We were hanging on for dear life for half the game! We made the most of our chances - which teams need to do in the playoffs. But let's face it - Fleury gifted a few goals.

So, if Fleury plays like that in the postseason, and they have an early exit, is the focus still on Bylsma?

If the Pens play as well as they did yesterday and the playoffs are coughed up by a Fleury meltdown again, if I'm the owner I look long and hard at why I shouldn't **** can Shero for belligerently staying with a head case with the same result year after year.

How many times do you have to watch the Titanic before you get it through your thick head [spoiler ALERT] it's going to sink every damn time!

[flyercanuck]

If the Pens play as well as they did yesterday and the playoffs are coughed up by a Fleury meltdown again, if I'm the owner I look long and hard at why I shouldn't **** can Shero for belligerently staying with a head case with the same result year after year.

How many times do you have to watch the Titanic before you get it through your thick head [spoiler ALERT] it's going to sink every damn time!

 

I've never been much impressed with Shero as a gm.. For a guy who inherited #1 Crosby, #2 Malkin, #1 Fleury, Letang, #5 Ryan Whitney (who he dealt for Kunitz) and the #2 he used to take Staal (over Toews among others) he hasn't really done much as far as improving on that. He made a great trade getting Neal and Niskanen. He's turned 7 years of drafting into Olli Maata, Simon Despres, Benoit Pouliot, and Beau Bennett.. He hired Bylsma who a lot of people feel gets outcoached most games.

 

 He's not the worst around, but most of the pats on the back this guy gets wouldn't be there without #87 and #71 who he had nothing to do with acquiring.

[Polaris922]

I'll just address all of you at once. I think it depends on HOW they lose if they lose. Shero is a great GM and I think anyone disagreeing is just biased. I think faulting a GM for standing by a Cup winning first round draft pick goaltender is ridiculous UNTIL he's been given a chance to rebound. If Fleury falls apart this time around I think he will be replaced. He's the winningest regular season goalie since 2008. But he's had two bad postseasons, strike three I think he's out.

Bylsma is the fastest coach to both 200 wins and 250 wins. He turned the Pens around in '09 to win the Cup mid season, a very rare accomplishment. He deserves some slack, but if he continues to mess with the lines and refuse to adapt, and that leads to an early exit, you've got to think he's a great regular season coach but unable to ramp it up. My personal opinion is he doesn't hold players accountable enough, and that's his biggest flaw.

[pilldoc]

@Polaris922

 

You can use the same 3 strikes argument you have with MAF with Bylsma.

 

2012 - lose in ugly fashion to the Flyers in Round #1

2013 - lose in ugly fashion to the Bruins in Eastern Conference Finals

2014 - ?  lose ugly again and I can make an argument for Bylsma to be heading to the unemployment line.

 

You make valid points with your entire post.  Will an entire fan base be so patient with Bylsma if he fails to get the Pens to the SCF again this year.  After reading some of the Pens fans posts from lsat year, they wanted to be judge and jury and wanted Bylsma out of Dodge last year.  I just can see Mario and company keeping around if he fails for a 3rd time.  Just my opinion.

 

Your final statement says it all....."Bylsma does not hold players accountable enough, and that is his biggest flaw."  Ultimately, that may lead to his dissmissal.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

You can use the same 3 strikes argument you have with MAF with Bylsma.

2012 - lose in ugly fashion to the Flyers in Round #1

2013 - lose in ugly fashion to the Bruins in Eastern Conference Finals

2014 - ? lose ugly again and I can make an argument for Bylsma to be heading to the unemployment line.

You make valid points with your entire post. Will an entire fan base be so patient with Bylsma if he fails to get the Pens to the SCF again this year. After reading some of the Pens fans posts from lsat year, they wanted to be judge and jury and wanted Bylsma out of Dodge last year. I just can see Mario and company keeping around if he fails for a 3rd time. Just my opinion.

Your final statement says it all....."Bylsma does not hold players accountable enough, and that is his biggest flaw." Ultimately, that may lead to his dissmissal.

That's what I'm hoping too. I'm hoping if he drops the ball and its clearly on him they get rid of him. Regular season wins are important, but mean nothing if you can't go far past it.

[ruxpin]

Regular season wins are important, but mean nothing if you can't go far past it.

 

Bruce Boudreau is also in that camp, for me, until proven otherwise.

[Polaris922]

Bruce Boudreau is also in that camp, for me, until proven otherwise.

That's the thing though, Bylsma was successful the very first year. What's different now??

[ruxpin]

That's the thing though, Bylsma was successful the very first year. What's different now??

 

Yeah, that's the difference between him and Boudreau.  Bylsma has at least done it once.

 

I'm not sure how to answer the "what's different now?"  I could put out a couple theories but I'm not hard and fast behind any of them and I don't know that you'd like them.

 

1) Fleury played well the first time around.  He has really not since.  That's not on the coach, though. (I don't think.  I suppose if it was glaring that he misused him somehow, but I haven't noticed any support for that claim.  A Pens' fan who watches more of their games would be better at assessing that)

 

2) Here's one you won't like:   Blame it on the GM.  The first year you had a new coach taking over a team of young, hungry guys who also had some well-placed veteran grit.  The team--especially the key young, hungry guys--was largely inherited by the GM.  The coach was new and took over mid-season and the team was hungry to perform for him.  The combination of these things led to success.   I know you like Shero (I voted for him until the end in last summer's GM contest thing) but one can make an argument that while Shero has gone out and tried his damnedest to get some pieces at deadlines, etc., that the tinkering has not ultimately helped come playoff time.  In successive seasons, Bylsma went into the playoffs still trying to figure out chemistry, etc.   I think some of that last part is way overblown (the chemistry thing), but I've seen some criticism of Bylsma elsewhere that he doesn't adjust well.  So the "chemistry" may be a lack of coaching adjustment.

 

Ultimately, I really don't know what the difference is.  The different results are fairly clear, I just can't aptly diagnose the cause.

[mojo1917]

That's the thing though, Bylsma was successful the very first year. What's different now??

Bill Guerin , Max Talbot, Ryan Malone, in his prime Rob Scuderi.

Those were character guys , they have left the team for whatever reason and no one has stepped up to fill the void .

Malone and his coke habit today notwithstanding , was a good player for Pgh.

Weird team chemistry , lack of leadership as a result of back to back to back concussions to the team's best player.

That' s what I think is different.

[pilldoc]

@mojo1917

 

Bingo! I think we have a winner.   Every team needs these types of character guys.  How many of us enjoyed having Talbot on the team.  I know I thought it was a good move when he first initially signed here.  I know Pens fans hated the fact that he came to the Flyers.

 

 

Great observation mojo!

[brelic]

That's the thing though, Bylsma was successful the very first year. What's different now??

 

To that point, is there even a problem?

 

I mean:

 

1 Stanley Cup

1 2nd round exit

2 1st round exits

1 ECF exit

 

I don't see much in there to be concerned with. The 1st round exit to the Flyers could have gone either way. It was a no-holds barred WWE Raw goalfest. Plus, the Flyers really do seem to match up well against the Pens. The previous year, losing to TB 3-4, I don't remember it. Was it unexpected? Probably. But there are 16 teams who really want the Cup.

 

In any case, the coach has shown he can go deep into the playoffs on a few occasions. 

 

Look at Julien's record:

 

1st round exit

2 2nd round exits

1 Stanley Cup

1st round exit

1 SCF

 

It's the same kind of combination. A deep run, one Cup, but more than half of the time they are bounced early.

The Hawks under Quenneville:

 

1 WCF exit

1 Stanley Cup

2 1st round exits

1 Stanley Cup

 

They could have bounced Quenneville after the second 1st round exit and go in another direction. But they didn't, and they won the Cup the next year.

 

I don't think all 3 of these cases are directly analogous, but it just shows you that there are no more dynasties. Chicago is as close as it gets these days, and even they struggle. There are top level contenders, and then there are a bunch of hungry teams ready and willing to do what it takes to knock off the contenders.

 

Of course, Pens management and fan base might see it differently. How do the fans here see it?

[flyercanuck]

That's the thing though, Bylsma was successful the very first year. What's different now??

 

 Maybe his first year success should be partially credited to Therien? I'm not saying this is fact or anything, but he came in 2/3 of the way through the season. I doubt the Pens went totally off Theriens philosophy of how hockey should be played and fully into Bylsmas in a month. Maybe that hybrid worked better than Bylsmas approach? 

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

 

 Julien has had his team take steps forward. His first year wasn't his best, his last 3 have been.

[brelic]

@brelic

 

 Julien has had his team take steps forward. His first year wasn't his best, his last 3 have been.

 

Yes, but there's a 1st round exit sandwiched in between. I was just trying to point out that the regular season is one thing, but there's really an ebb and flow to the playoffs. It's about timing, health of the roster, how the chemistry has been, hot streaks, eliminating bad habits, blah blah. All stuff we know, but forget once we're watching the product on the ice.

 

How much of that is controlled by coaching? 

 

Or put another way, in what way did Bylsma, Julien, and Quenneville fail as coaches when they were bounced early? And if there is a clear indication that the team succeeds and fails with its coach, isn't their success rate worth celebrating compared to the other 27 teams?

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

 

 Right, forgot about the "Cup hangover". But he lost in 1st, then 2nd twice, then cup, hangover, then finals. That's not as sporadic.

 

 I hate to face the Bruins in the playoffs. It's not because they have better players than the Pens. They don't have anyone near Crosby or Malkins talent. But they are prepared to play and they roll 4 lines who all work their arses off. Is there a team that's easier to get off their game than the Pens? If that isn't at least partially on the coach.....I'm not blaming Bylsma 100%, the players are big boys and should be able to get themselves prepared. But he just seems incapable of steering the ship in a different direction once the destination is set.

[B21]

No, his original comment wasn't tongue in cheek. That's not the kind of thing you say as a joke. He was probably pissed and annoyed at how they lost. He tried to save himself some embarrassment by later saying it was a joke. Haha, so Bylsma backtracks on his original comment by saying he was joking about his player's heart attack? Not sure which one is dumber

 

Do you think Bylsma is fighting for his job? In other words, if he's one and done (or loses in the 2nd round), do you think he will be let go?

 

Short answer? Yes.  A lot depends on when and how they are eliminated.  If they lose 4-3 to the Bruins in the ECF? Maybe.  Any trip to the SCF? No. Anything less than an ECF and he should go.

 

To expand on what you noted about Bylsma's record in the post-season - it really hasn't been "that" bad.

 

2008-09. Stanley Cup Champs.  From a coaching perspective, he gets all the credit. He took over a team that was 29-26-6 (I think out of the playoffs at the time) and took them all the way to the Cup.

 

2009-10.  Lose in 2nd round to Montreal. The red hot Carey Price run for the Canadiens.

 

2010-11.  Lose in 1st round to Tampa Bay.  No Malkin or Crosby and they took Tampa to 7.  Do we really kill Bylsma for that? He won the Adams this year.

 

2011-12. Lose to the Flyers in 1st round. Lose composure (that's on the coach) but at the end of the day this was a 1st round match up that paired the teams with the 4th and 5th highest point totals in the league.  It was a ECF level pairing played in the 1st round.

 

2012-13.  Lose to the Bruins in the ECF.  They way they lost (4-0) was bad but are we having the conversation if they lose 4-2?

 

So...SC / 2nd / 1st / 1st / ECF.

 

A few other relevant comparisons during that same time...

 

Blackhawks:  WCF / SC / 1st / 1st / SC

Bruins:          2nd / 2nd / SC / 1st  / SCF

Red Wings:   SCF / 2nd / 2nd / 1st / 2nd

Kings:            NA / 1st  / 1st / SC / WCF

 

They only lost to a significantly lesser team in 2009-10 (Montreal). Was any other series in which they were eliminated that much of a shock?  I think they can do better.  I think this team needs less of a players' coach and more of a...disciplinarian?...not Therien-like but a guy like a Quennville or a Babcock.

[brelic]

A lot depends on when and how they are eliminated.

 

Good post, B. That's kinda of what I'm thinking as well. 

 

I don't think you need to get rid of the coach unless/until it's clear that the players are no longer responding to him.That's when it's a clear coaching problem.

 

Do you get that sense with the Penguins?

[B21]

Good post, B. That's kinda of what I'm thinking as well. 

 

I don't think you need to get rid of the coach unless/until it's clear that the players are no longer responding to him.That's when it's a clear coaching problem.

 

Do you get that sense with the Penguins?

 

I don't think there is much for them to "respond" to if that makes sense?  Just my opinion.  I think they do what they are told.  Not sure if what they are being to is the right thing to do.

[brelic]

I don't think there is much for them to "respond" to if that makes sense?  Just my opinion.  I think they do what they are told.  Not sure if what they are being to is the right thing to do.

 

Yes, I think I know what you mean. He doesn't seem to be that kind of coach.

 

Let's take the whole 'grinding team' thing into consideration. Bylsma thinks of his team as a grinding team, and wants them to play that way - at least according to the interview during a game broadcast last month. 

 

Do you think the team sees itself that way? Are they a 'grinding' team when you watch them play? Do they have a clear identity?

 

Do you get the sense that there's a strong camaraderie with this team? Do they go the extra mile for each other? Or are they just going through the motions?

[B21]

Yes, I think I know what you mean. He doesn't seem to be that kind of coach.

 

Let's take the whole 'grinding team' thing into consideration. Bylsma thinks of his team as a grinding team, and wants them to play that way - at least according to the interview during a game broadcast last month. 

 

Do you think the team sees itself that way? Are they a 'grinding' team when you watch them play? Do they have a clear identity?

 

Do you get the sense that there's a strong camaraderie with this team? Do they go the extra mile for each other? Or are they just going through the motions?

 

I suppose.  Hard to say since none of us are in the locker room but that's true for any team but I think they do.

 

The "grinding" comment - I think he thinks that is the style they need to be successful in the playoffs (especially vs. Boston).  Problem is - does he have the horses?  Not likely...at least not against the Bruins.  I think that is why Shero was ready to give up the house for Kesler.

[B21]

Prediction time...

 

Barry Trotz will be the Pens' coach in 2014-15.  Heard it here first...or 2nd if you read it in the other thread I posted it.

 

If the Pens flame out too early (as I expect they will - against the Flyers in the Division Semis - or is it Division Finals?), Shero turns to his old pal from his Nashville days.