So the Flyers "simply" aren't talented enough to win?

[fanaticV3.0]

You realize that on a ppg basis Schenn has made No progression at all.

 

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years.  He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

Edited May 1, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[caluso]

Averaging a half a point per game as the team's second line center and as someone who also plays on the power play ain't chopped liver. They are the stats of a mediocre player; and if that player is a top 6 forward, that is a sign that the team is in trouble.

And the point of the ppg analysis was to point out that he has not progressed at all. In fact, he is trending in the wrong direction.

[caluso]

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years. He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

[caluso]

So what? After going from 38 to 50 points in one year, Jake scored less (than 50) every year for the next 3 years. He only just reached his highest points total in a single season this year - his 6th season.

[caluso]

When I watched Voracek develop, it was clear he had the skills.

I see no signs from Schenn that he will be more than a role player.

Do you watch him play? Do you ever come away and say, "what a great game he played."

I don't.

[radoran]

Averaging a half a point per game as the team's second line center and as someone who also plays on the power play ain't chopped liver. They are the stats of a mediocre player; and if that player is a top 6 forward, that is a sign that the team is in trouble.

And the point of the ppg analysis was to point out that he has not progressed at all. In fact, he is trending in the wrong direction.

 

Had he played 2nd line center consistently, yes. He was bounced around most of the season along with VLC. Am I "happy" with Schenn's production? No, I believe it should improve. And I also believe it can.

 

Will it? I have no idea. But unless there is a better option - and I'm all in favor or seeking better options - that's the best route available.

 

Also, statistically speaking, going from .55 in a shortened season to .5 in a full season isn't "regression" - it's an acceptable deviation.

 

.05 change isn't a meaningful 'trend' in any way, shape or form.

[radoran]

I'm almost positive that game 3 of the POs was not the first time he played on the 2nd line since the demotion. Besides the fact that I'm fairly certain I saw it, the article you linked to says "he pretty much stayed there until now" when talking about his move to the 2nd line center for game 3. Hell, it says he played there some in game 2. I don't think it was 12 straight games of him on the 4th line. We can't even go 12 minutes of guys playing the same position, let alone games.

 

You know what surprised me in that article? It said Vinny spent most of the season playing on Schenn's wing. I would have put money on it that Vinny centered the 2nd line more than Schenn and makes me think Schenn isn't a center even more than I already did.

 

Given coach's predilictions for swapping players on lines and "trying to shake things up" it is not beyond the realm of possibility he took "2nd line" shifts in some games.

 

He didn't start there until the 3rd game of the playoffs when every reporter and media outlet covering the team noted the significant change in moving him back to the 2nd line.

 

I don't specifically care if Schenn plays wing, center or serves popcorn in the press box. But VLC isn't a "better" second line option and quite frankly I'd err on the side of the 22 year old developing over the 34 year old reestablishing his game after five years of steady decline.

Again, I'm ready, willing and able to find a better second line center. Lacking one, I'll stick with Schenn.

[aziz]

When I watched Voracek develop, it was clear he had the skills.

I see no signs from Schenn that he will be more than a role player.

Do you watch him play? Do you ever come away and say, "what a great game he played."

I don't.

No, me either. I do come away and say, "man, he can skate," or, "he has a great shot," or, "he hits like a truck," or, "he has great hands for a physical player." just never at the same time. And that's the problem. The tools are definitely there, he just needs to figure out how to bring them all in one presentation, consistently. I don't know if he'll ever do that, but it IS exactly the kind of problem immature players tend to have. That is grounds for hope.

[radoran]

No, me either. I do come away and say, "man, he can skate," or, "he has a great shot," or, "he hits like a truck," or, "he has great hands for a physical player." just never at the same time. And that's the problem. The tools are definitely there, he just needs to figure out how to bring them all in one presentation, consistently. I don't know if he'll ever do that, but it IS exactly the kind of problem immature players tend to have. That is grounds for hope.

 

Yeah, his play doesn't blow anyone away, but scoring 20 in your first full season in the NHL at 22 just doesn't scream "bust" to me. As you say, there's hope.

 

Which is, in my mind, the point of Restricted Free Agency. You can use this time to reasonably develop players without needing to pay through the nose for them.

 

I see Schenn getting, say, a two yer deal and allowing the Flyers to see what they have with him - assuming they don't ship him out for a better  (OK, let's just say "different") option.

 

And I just don't know what that option is*. Is it a Cody Hodgson-type, for example?

 

 

 

* it's not Lecavalier

[fanaticV3.0]

When I watched Voracek develop, it was clear he had the skills.

I see no signs from Schenn that he will be more than a role player.

Do you watch him play? Do you ever come away and say, "what a great game he played."

I don't.

 

Schenn hit 20 goals much sooner in his career than Voracek you know.

[fanaticV3.0]

Given coach's predilictions for swapping players on lines and "trying to shake things up" it is not beyond the realm of possibility he took "2nd line" shifts in some games.

 

He didn't start there until the 3rd game of the playoffs when every reporter and media outlet covering the team noted the significant change in moving him back to the 2nd line.

 

I don't specifically care if Schenn plays wing, center or serves popcorn in the press box. But VLC isn't a "better" second line option and quite frankly I'd err on the side of the 22 year old developing over the 34 year old reestablishing his game after five years of steady decline.

Again, I'm ready, willing and able to find a better second line center. Lacking one, I'll stick with Schenn.

 

The constant changing of the lines and positions has to stop. I don't mind doing it when something isn't working, but doing it too much does nothing but hurt.

 

I don't care about age, I care about who's capable of doing the job and doing it well. At 37 and 41 points a piece, neither option stands out. Schenn has the "he could get better" thing going for him, but you also have to take into account Vinny has never played wing in his entire career and was asked to do that for the first time...at 33. That's just bad coaching. Personally, I wouldn't mind him on the 4th and special teams minutes, but they're not going to put a $4+ million dollar player there on a regular basis.

[radoran]

The constant changing of the lines and positions has to stop. I don't mind doing it when something isn't working, but doing it too much does nothing but hurt.

 

I don't care about age, I care about who's capable of doing the job and doing it well. At 37 and 41 points a piece, neither option stands out. Schenn has the "he could get better" thing going for him, but you also have to take into account Vinny has never played wing in his entire career and was asked to do that for the first time...at 33. That's just bad coaching. Personally, I wouldn't mind him on the 4th and special teams minutes, but they're not going to put a $4+ million dollar player there on a regular basis.

 

We're pretty much on the same page with all of this.

 

There is the question of whether having a strictly "energy" fourth line makes sense or, given the resources, making 1, 1a, 3, 3a lines for example. 18, 18, 12, 12 minutes?

 

They've had to rely more on the top line this year out of desperation and necessity. They got into a Top Six playoff spot and have gained some valuable experience in a 4-3 loss.

 

Guys are either going to have to step up next season - and I do think they will give this core well into next season - or management will make some significant moves.

 

Having VLC on the fourth in a situation where the coach plays the fourth 6-8 minutes isn't that effective. Even giving him second line PP minutes. 

[mojo1917]

No, me either. I do come away and say, "man, he can skate," or, "he has a great shot," or, "he hits like a truck," or, "he has great hands for a physical player." just never at the same time. And that's the problem. The tools are definitely there, he just needs to figure out how to bring them all in one presentation, consistently. I don't know if he'll ever do that, but it IS exactly the kind of problem immature players tend to have. That is grounds for hope.

There was a play in game six that summed up your thought here perfectly. It was the play Brayden made to set up Simmer's 2nd goal. 10 won a foot race to the puck, out muscles Dan Girardi 2 times, the second shrugging him off like he was a child, bursts between the dots where he promptly loses his handle on the puck, luckily Simmonds was there to "fix " the mistake . That play was 90% great 5% lucky and 5% wtf?. If he can put it all together...we have a dynamite player, plays like that are why people will be reluctant to give up on him...maybe to their benefit .

[fanaticV3.0]

We're pretty much on the same page with all of this.

 

There is the question of whether having a strictly "energy" fourth line makes sense or, given the resources, making 1, 1a, 3, 3a lines for example. 18, 18, 12, 12 minutes?

 

They've had to rely more on the top line this year out of desperation and necessity. They got into a Top Six playoff spot and have gained some valuable experience in a 4-3 loss.

 

Guys are either going to have to step up next season - and I do think they will give this core well into next season - or management will make some significant moves.

 

Having VLC on the fourth in a situation where the coach plays the fourth 6-8 minutes isn't that effective. Even giving him second line PP minutes. 

 

This conversation prompted be to create that "4th line" thread in the general area. I mean that too. Why do teams seems to think you "have to" have muckers and grinders on the 4th? That's just dumb imo. If that is all you have or can afford, that's a separate issue. But if you can make it the best possible line, why not? There's not enough outside the box thinking in sports sometimes.

[aziz]

This conversation prompted be to create that "4th line" thread in the general area. I mean that too. Why do teams seems to think you "have to" have muckers and grinders on the 4th? That's just dumb imo. If that is all you have or can afford, that's a separate issue. But if you can make it the best possible line, why not? There's not enough outside the box thinking in sports sometimes.

 

i think it is a matter of ice time.  if your first and second lines are skating 18 minutes each, your third 14, there is only 10 minutes left in a non-OT game.  add in special teams time, and it drops even further.  even a deep pocketed team can find it hard to justify $4mil talent for ~8 minutes per night.

[radoran]

i think it is a matter of ice time.  if your first and second lines are skating 18 minutes each, your third 14, there is only 10 minutes left in a non-OT game.  add in special teams time, and it drops even further.  even a deep pocketed team can find it hard to justify $4mil talent for ~8 minutes per night.

 

Right, and if you have to play your 1/2 lines 18/20 minutes (plus special teams) then it is hard to find time for your fourth.

 

I think the point is looking at the makeup of the team differently and having a more balanced approach than overrelying on 1/2 lines.

 

For example, the Islanders have two guys in the regular season top 20 TOI for forwards. All three of TOR's top line is in the Top 20. Vancouver has the Sedins and Kessler. I think we can see the common denominator there.

 

You know who has zero forwards in the Top 40 of TOI? Boston (Krecji - 51st, Igionla 88, Bergeron 95). The only one for Anaheim? Getzlaf (3rd - Perry 42nd).

 

The Rangers had MSL at 7th, but Richards (69) and Stepan (91) are the only other two in the Top 100. And St. Louis is 35th in the playoffs.

 

It's a matter of how you construct a team and, you're absolutely right, for some teams it's not an option.

 

And for others, it's just not how they roll.

[aziz]

think the point is looking at the makeup of the team differently and having a more balanced approach than overrelying on 1/2 lines.

 

true.  on the other hand, i want giroux on the ice as much as he can reasonably handle.  i like the idea of a solid 4 line team, with each being consistent contributors, but if your team has a standout, it's hard to decide against using him less than you are able.

[radoran]

true.  on the other hand, i want giroux on the ice as much as he can reasonably handle.  i like the idea of a solid 4 line team, with each being consistent contributors, but if your team has a standout, it's hard to decide against using him less than you are able.

 

Well, and G (17th) is a good example - much like Getzlaf. He plays all situations and his TOI reflects that.

 

But Hartnell (135) and Voracek (118) aren't up there with him. Couturier (52) is next followed by Read (64) - again because they are playing the PK and D against the opposing top lines.

 

It's not a question of when you play your best player, but whether you are relying on that guy's line to eat up minutes.

[fanaticV3.0]

i think it is a matter of ice time.  if your first and second lines are skating 18 minutes each, your third 14, there is only 10 minutes left in a non-OT game.  add in special teams time, and it drops even further.  even a deep pocketed team can find it hard to justify $4mil talent for ~8 minutes per night.

 

That's a choice though. If you don't have any other options than the Rinaldos, Rosehills, and Halls of the world, then that's fine. But if you can throw a struggling vet (not an idea situation, but more like the best of a bad one) or a promising kid (Akeson) into that mix then by all means do it.

[OccamsRazor]

 i like the idea of a solid 4 line team

 

Yes me too..Daniel Winnik would be worth a look if Ducks don't resign him....just throwing that out there. Who knows what the off season plan will be....i'll stay positive.

[CoachX]

My concern with Schenn is that he ends up being the next Justin Williams or Patrick Sharp. I can see the Flyers moving him, probably for nothing, then watching him develop for another team.

 

I can imagine the outrage

[OccamsRazor]

My concern with Schenn is that he ends up being the next Justin Williams or Patrick Sharp. I can see the Flyers moving him, probably for nothing, then watching him develop for another team.

 

I can imagine the outrage

 

 

Yes me too i just know it he is only 22 and just completed first full season in the NHL and he was still jerked around from center to wing to center to wing again.

 

He needs to be left alone so he can adjust get in a groove.

 

The Blue Jackets till this year did the same thing to Ryan Johansen till this year they left him alone at center this year and he blossomed into the role they envisioned.

 

I think the same should be done to Brayden but i just know with his contract situation and the 75 centers in the organization he will be shipped out for something they have trouble drafting.....it's coming especially after comments from Snider saying Vinny isn't a 4th line center and the log jam at center he is as good as gone at or during the draft.

[CoachX]

That would be great, trade the then face of the franchise "Richards" (who won a cup with the aforementioned J. Williams), for the number one prospect, then trade him for probably the next "can't miss young star", who will most likely miss, while the discarded "never will be" Schenn, goes on to win a cup with some team that actually does things right. My guess, Edmonton

 

This forum nearly melted down when the prodigal Scotty Upshall was traded, I can't wait to see this one

[radoran]

This forum nearly melted down when the prodigal Scotty Upshall was traded, I can't wait to see this one

 

They traded Upshall for Carcillo. That alone set a lot of people off. And they added a 2nd rounder as well.

 

Yes, Upshall and a 2nd for Dan Carcillo.

 

If they trade Brayden Schenn and a second for Zack Kassian, then, yes, I think this place would melt down again.

 

It's all about the return.

 

Would any of you be upset if they traded Schenn for Evander Kane?
 
I mean, Kane is a winger and a sniper, and he already has a 30-goal season under his belt. He's a bit of a troubled young player (according to his outings and the media), and sounds like he would welcome a change. 

 

If they got an Evander Kane for Schenn and a 2nd, I think that might be a heluva lot more palateable, yes.