DISGUSTING

[caluso]

who of "our youth" is overvalued? Couturier? He's about the only roster player who's 21 and imo he's not overvalued at all. He's under-used offensively; the Flyers seem content to let him be a shutdown forward and I know he's got more than that.

 

There's 2 guys who are 23 - Akeson and Rinaldo, you mean them? After them - besides BSchenn - "our youth" doesn't really apply.

 

Anyway I'm (mostly) on board with what you said about Schenn. I've been crabbing all year about him, saying how he's not impressing anyone...nobody is afraid of him in the league...he's not a "weapon" on the ice except once in a blue moon. (no blue moons the past 2 weeks obviously)

 

All year folks said "be patient canoli" and they were right. It would be stupid to - whoops, sorry (!) it would be silly to say "he has no upside." The guy is 22 years old; his upside is still in front of him. But - and this is probably why you're fed up with him too - the fact is everybody said he was "The Best Player Not In The NHL" a few years ago. Remember? He was supposed to easily surpass Voracek and Simmonds in those trades*. Those 2 were "great we got a couple role players too" and BSchenn was the Star, the guy we *really* traded for.

 

He hasn't come close to living up to the build up. Maybe the expectations were off but a few flashes here and there don't describe a diamond-in-the-rough. For 7 games against the Rangers he was all but invisible - certainly not the only one but he really turned in a DUD of a series.

 

Still I'd like to keep him - if possible - for 1 more season. He may very well be a late bloomer - and if he is it'll be Justin Williams, Patrick Sharpe all over again.

 

[edit: * i realize i lumped the 2 trades together...seems fair to do in context]

the Flyers have an alarming habit of mis-valuing their own players. the list is endless. if they stick with Schenn as their number 2 center, they will be very easy to defend in a short series: stop G and V and the Flyers won't be able to score, outside of the PP. sound familiar?

 

what makes you say that his upside is still in front of him? what has he shown you that i am missing? he was gifted the number 2 center position and failed to deliver, showing no improvement whatsoever along the way. as brelic inadvertently pointed out, his ppg is exactly the same now as it was when he came into the league. he has no hockey sense; i can't take anymore of his ridiculous behind the back passes to the opposition. additionally, he's a turnover machine and his creativity is non-existent. what the hell was he doing in game 6 before he flubbed that pass to simmonds?

 

as i said in another post, how many times have you said, "man, schenn played great today," or something to that effect. he just doesn't positively impact the game for the flyers and you can't be saying that about your number 2 center. he is a detriment to the flyers success.

Edited May 1, 2014 by caluso

[Vanflyer]

if they stick with Schenn as their number 2 center, they will be very easy to defend in a short series:

 

They are not. Laughton  is our #2 center. Schenn is going to be moved for a d man. As much as be biotch about his brother, i will hold onto him. But B. Schenn is gone. 

[magnumpi]

@Vanflyer

 

agreed, I'd keep Luke.

 

But Brayden needs to be moved before he his trade value falls to zero

[brelic]

This team is lazy, they do not move their feet without the puck

 

This x 1000.

 

To me, that was the most noticeable thing throughout the series. 

 

The Rangers players skate (i.e. they're MOVING their feet) while chasing down our guys.

 

The Flyers guys take a few strides towards a Ranger and then coast into them. Much less pressure.

 

Worse than that, I've noticed several guys (including Couturier last night on Carcillo's goal) coast toward the puck carrier, and just before reaching them TURN AND SKATE AWAY. Wtf?????? Where are you going that is more important???? And don't tell me shift change, because Coots did not leave on a shift change. He abandoned the puck carrier who put it deep, then it came to the Ranger who passed to Carcillo. Couturier could have potentially prevented that goal by a) skating to the puck carrier and not coasting, and b) not TURNING AWAY when he reached him. 

 

That play was completely disgusting.

 

When I notice the entire team play that way, it's a coaching issue. For all the great things Berube has accomplished with this group this year, they still need a lot of work.

[brelic]

id move Courtier as well, while his value is high
 
He'll never be anything greater than a 3rd line center
 
He has no skill at all

 

Well, I stand corrected. In a previous post to you, I thought you were making the assertion that players peak at 22 years old (Schenn). Now it seems I was wrong. 

 

Do you believe players peak at 21 years old? In other words, what do you expect out of Couturier at his age? 

[radoran]

This x 1000.

To me, that was the most noticeable thing throughout the series.

The Rangers players skate (i.e. they're MOVING their feet) while chasing down our guys.

 

The Flyers "changed it up" and blew out the Rangers 5-2.

 

So they "changed it up" and went back to the way they had been playing.

 

Made no sense.

 

I knew on the first power play that the game was over. Even when they cut it to 2-1, there was precious little chance they were going to get another goal past the Rags D and Lundqvist.

 

Yay! They "accomplished" making the playoffs!

 

And they have this nice, big egg that they laid now, too.

[brelic]

as brelic inadvertently pointed out, his ppg is exactly the same now as it was when he came into the league.

 

No it isn't. He started at 0.39ppg, then 0.55ppg, and 0.5 this year. So this year and last year don't show progress.

 

I'm not going to defend Schenn on the basis that he's shown us anything. I've said in another thread that I'm really disappointed in Schenn, and that's probably because my expectations were too high based on the "best player not in the NHL" tagline. Well, I just don't see it. 

 

the Flyers have an alarming habit of mis-valuing their own players. the list is endless. if they stick with Schenn as their number 2 center, they will be very easy to defend in a short series: stop G and V and the Flyers won't be able to score, outside of the PP. sound familiar?

 

Yes, they were easy to defend against in this series. Against the Rangers. In 2014.

 

But what about 3 years from now? When Schenn is 25 and approaching his prime, Giroux is 29 and in his prime, Couturier 24 and should have had a breakout year, Laughton will be 22-23 and very comfortable with the game. Simmonds will be 28 and in his prime. Voracek will be 27 and in his prime. Mason will be 28 and in his prime as well. Ghost, Morin, Hagg should all be on the blueline. Timonen will be 43 and still ticking as the #1... Ok, I'm kidding about that part

 

I'm optimistic about the future of this team. 

 

All that being said, I still think Brayden Schenn will be traded this summer. He's been disappointing and this franchise does not have patience.

[off_the_post]

Yes, they were easy to defend against in this series. Against the Rangers. In 2014.



But what about 3 years from now? When Schenn is 25 and approaching his prime, Giroux is 29 and in his prime, Couturier 24 and should have had a breakout year, Laughton will be 22-23 and very comfortable with the game. Simmonds will be 28 and in his prime. Voracek will be 27 and in his prime. Mason will be 28 and in his prime as well. Ghost, Morin, Hagg should all be on the blueline. Timonen will be 43 and still ticking as the #1... Ok, I'm kidding about that part



I'm optimistic about the future of this team.



All that being said, I still think Brayden Schenn will be traded this summer. He's been disappointing and this franchise does not have patience.

Thanks for taking the time and writing this for me.  I agree.

[caluso]

No it isn't. He started at 0.39ppg, then 0.55ppg, and 0.5 this year. So this year and last year don't show progress.

 

I'm not going to defend Schenn on the basis that he's shown us anything. I've said in another thread that I'm really disappointed in Schenn, and that's probably because my expectations were too high based on the "best player not in the NHL" tagline. Well, I just don't see it. 

 

 

Yes, they were easy to defend against in this series. Against the Rangers. In 2014.

 

But what about 3 years from now? When Schenn is 25 and approaching his prime, Giroux is 29 and in his prime, Couturier 24 and should have had a breakout year, Laughton will be 22-23 and very comfortable with the game. Simmonds will be 28 and in his prime. Voracek will be 27 and in his prime. Mason will be 28 and in his prime as well. Ghost, Morin, Hagg should all be on the blueline. Timonen will be 43 and still ticking as the #1... Ok, I'm kidding about that part

 

I'm optimistic about the future of this team. 

 

All that being said, I still think Brayden Schenn will be traded this summer. He's been disappointing and this franchise does not have patience.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Amazing analysis. Thank you for your 2 weeks of service as a fan of the Flyers. See you next Spring. 

[Phlyer1]

How could you even think about dealing Simmonds? He is the only physical power winger we have, I won't count Hartnell cause he's on a downward slope of his career. Simmonds is also the key to our PP up front as much as Giroux is.We have a surplus of centers,we are stuck with VLC and Laughton is on the way. You deal from your excess and from your strength, you do not deal from a thin position and weaken it, in order to strengthen another area. So if anyone is traded for defense,it will have to be one of the centers.

Since Hartnall never reached an upward slope the downward slope is even closer than it appears. kind of like the mirror on the passenger side.

[FlyersFan4Life]

could be worse. I mean the Sharks fail every year in the PO now joined a small elite groups and blew a 3-0 lead to lose in 7

[canoli]

kind of like the mirror on the passenger side.

 

LOL! that's great man...thanks for the laugh!

 

I know I'm in the minority but I still like Hartnell and think he can help the Flyers provided they move him off that top line. He doesn't have the speed or skill to skate with Giroux and Jake, that much is obvious. But he is a tough mother to play against, especially when he works just outside the crease; with the right linemates and reduced minutes he can be a valuable player.

[brelic]

I know I'm in the minority but I still like Hartnell and think he can help the Flyers provided they move him off that top line.

 

I've come around to this position too. I think he's more valuable to us than just his production, but not on the top line. I would have him with Schenn and Simmonds. Give them a shot again and see if they can get something going.

 

Otherwise, the only other spot for him is the 4th line, and that's too much money for a 4th liner... though I doubt there's much of a market for Hartnell. 

[radoran]

I've come around to this position too. I think he's more valuable to us than just his production, but not on the top line. I would have him with Schenn and Simmonds. Give them a shot again and see if they can get something going.

 

Otherwise, the only other spot for him is the 4th line, and that's too much money for a 4th liner... though I doubt there's much of a market for Hartnell. 

 

You have to believe that other teams are happy as heck Homer gave Hartnell a NMC.

 

"No, sorry, Homer - we can't trade for him because Hartnell has a NMC... No, really, you don't need to ask him to waive it..."

[canoli]

Scott Hartnell's value is as an agitator, a guy who sets the aggressive tone the Flyers like to play (when he's actually, ya know, doing that). He's an opposing goalie's nightmare when he's on his game. He's a dependable ~50pt guy who's extremely well-liked on and off the ice.

 

He also invites mockery and criticism for his casual commitment to staying on his feet. He's inclined to take retaliatory penalties and his underwhelming point production on a top line make him an easy mark.

 

I wouldn't discount his value in a trade; there are teams who could really benefit from what he brings. I bet more than a few GMs see a nice ROI for Scott Hartnell's services; there are 2 questions - should the Flyers try to move him, and would Scott Hartnell agree to be traded? I'm not so sure the Flyers should even try to move him...

[radoran]

Scott Hartnell's value is as an agitator, a guy who sets the aggressive tone the Flyers like to play (when he's actually, ya know, doing that). He's an opposing goalie's nightmare when he's on his game. He's a dependable ~50pt guy who's extremely well-liked on and off the ice.

 

He also invites mockery and criticism for his casual commitment to staying on his feet. He's inclined to take retaliatory penalties and his underwhelming point production on a top line make him an easy mark.

 

I wouldn't discount his value in a trade; there are teams who could really benefit from what he brings. I bet more than a few GMs see a nice ROI for Scott Hartnell's services; there are 2 questions - should the Flyers try to move him, and would Scott Hartnell agree to be traded? I'm not so sure the Flyers should even try to move him...

 

I do think he has value. Just not $4.75m per year for the next five years value. $4.75M is around "market value" (perhaps a little high) for a 20/50 guy. If one projects Hartnell to be a 20/50 guy for each of the next five years (which I am not at all sanguine about).

 

With that in mind, I don't believe there are even "more than a few" GMs who think he's got five years of value, either. And that number, in terms of teams Hartnell would agree to go to, IMO drops further. Factor in the return the Flyers would get and I'm not sure that a real "fit" is out there unless they are looking to deal him for a skate sharpener.

 

That said, they're not going to try to move him.

[canoli]

When a team trades for a guy like Hartnell it's because they need grit, a guy who creates havoc in front of the net. Point production is a distant secondary concern, and it's not even on the radar projected 4 years out.

 

I believe there's plenty of teams Hartnell would help. He can't skate with the fast, more creative guys on any team. We proved that in Philly. But he's a good PP guy and on the right line he makes sense at $4.75. He may very well become Brayden Schenn's best friend next year - and Simmonds' too.

 

But the "trade Hartnell" discussion is probably moot. I agree with you - maybe for different reasons - but you're right the Flyers won't even try to move him.

[radoran]

When a team trades for a guy like Hartnell it's because they need grit, a guy who creates havoc in front of the net.

 

Absolutely, no disagreement at all.

 

Point production is a distant secondary concern, and it's not even on the radar projected 4 years out.

 

But not projecting what a player is worth four years from now when trading for a guy with five years left on his deal just doesn't seem like the smartest move in the world, to me...

 

NHL GMs' mileage may vary.

[canoli]

NHL GMs' mileage may vary.

 

that it most certainly does!