New cap 69 mil

[canoli]

significant risk? Definitely. But if you mean over and above what any agitator-type, stay-at-home D-man would accrue over a 15-year career I would mostly disagree. Add in that Pronger's a HOF-bound player and it's no surprise after 15 years he'd be damaged goods, at least to some extent. The Flyers wanted him, they took a stupid risk with the over35 clause and now it's biting them in the ass. Oh well. The only one I feel bad for is Pronger b/c I always liked him.

 

I don't remember him being out of the game for any length of time, either for the Ducks or the Blues. AFAIK it wasn't till he got to Philly that his trouble started. Flyers' curse, whatever the hell... I only hope Hextall can figure it out, find the antidote. Because this team has been floundering ever since Pronger went out.

[aziz]

The Flyers wanted him, they took a stupid risk with the over35 clause and now it's biting them in the ass. Oh well. The only one I feel bad for is Pronger b/c I always liked him.

I'm not sure how it is biting them in the ass now. The 35+ aspect to it, anyway.

[Polaris922]

Look at it this way... The ONLY damage it's doing is the Flyers have to either pay him his annual salary or take him as an annual cap hit. As long as they pay him he goes on LTIR and doesn't impact your salary cap one bit.

Does it hurt Pronger to not be allowed to say he's retired for a few years? That $5 million is a pretty good band-aid.

[radoran]

As long as they pay him he goes on LTIR and doesn't impact your salary cap one bit.

 

Well, we are seeing rightnow where Pronger's salary does impact the cap - because while there is the 10% offseason exemption, and of that $6.9M exemption, Pronger's contract eats up $4.9M of it - 71% of the entire exemption. Then you add in prorated two ways and also the need to have tagging space for RFAs.

 

And, again, at the start of the season, it is likely that a player or players will need to be sent down for the first game because Pronger can't officially go on LTIR until after the first day of the season. Yes, on the team's Day One, they need to have an extra projected $4.9M of cap space available on top of what they already sign and make some moves (Schenn back to Adirondack for the day? I don't even know his waiver eligibility).

 

Partly as a result, they will likely have to also ditch at least one $4.5M range contract (VLC or Umburglar, for example) - and the return will likely be even less favorable because on top of needing to get rid of the guys, teams know the Flyers are desperate for cap space.

 

You think that $4.9M looks a little more important now?

[aziz]

Then you add in prorated two ways and also the need to have tagging space for RFAs.
 
And, again, at the start of the season, it is likely that a player or players will need to be sent down for the first game because Pronger can't officially go on LTIR until after the first day of the season. Yes, on the team's Day One, they need to have an extra projected $4.9M of cap space available on top of what they already sign and make some moves (Schenn back to Adirondack for the day? I don't even know his waiver eligibility).
 

 

tagging space ceases to be an issue as of tomorrow.  and pronger can be put on LTIR on the last day of training camp.  there is no reason to enter the season hobbled. 

 

it is a problem, but let's not get carried away.  functionally, the only issue it causes is it eats a large percentage of the offseason overage allowance, as you point out.

[Vanflyer]

the only issue it causes is it eats a large percentage of the offseason overage allowance, as you point out.

 

Which to me is a bit like smoke and mirrors. I get how it can be used, but its not THAT big of a deal. 

[Polaris922]

Well, we are seeing rightnow where Pronger's salary does impact the cap - because while there is the 10% offseason exemption, and of that $6.9M exemption, Pronger's contract eats up $4.9M of it - 71% of the entire exemption. Then you add in prorated two ways and also the need to have tagging space for RFAs.

And, again, at the start of the season, it is likely that a player or players will need to be sent down for the first game because Pronger can't officially go on LTIR until after the first day of the season. Yes, on the team's Day One, they need to have an extra projected $4.9M of cap space available on top of what they already sign and make some moves (Schenn back to Adirondack for the day? I don't even know his waiver eligibility).

Partly as a result, they will likely have to also ditch at least one $4.5M range contract (VLC or Umburglar, for example) - and the return will likely be even less favorable because on top of needing to get rid of the guys, teams know the Flyers are desperate for cap space.

You think that $4.9M looks a little more important now?

Actually he goes LTIR before the season starts so no impact there. Just the off season applies.

[aziz]

Which to me is a bit like smoke and mirrors. I get how it can be used, but its not THAT big of a deal. 

 

 

yeah, i mean, flexibility is good.  the real thing is the 10% let's you wing it a little, and figure out the details later.  make the deal you can't afford, but so long as it isn't more than 10%, you've got two months to figure it out.  less overage equals more need to make it work right now, gain salary-lose salary, no layaways.  which, maybe isn't such a bad mode for the flyers to be in right now.

[radoran]

tagging space ceases to be an issue as of tomorrow.  and pronger can be put on LTIR on the last day of training camp.  there is no reason to enter the season hobbled. 

 

it is a problem, but let's not get carried away.  functionally, the only issue it causes is it eats a large percentage of the offseason overage allowance, as you point out.

 

Here's a 2013 article on exactly the "Pronger situation" and when the team can put him on LTIR and how that affects things: 

http://thehockeyguys.net/timing-is-everything-maximizing-ltir-benefits/

 

2010 LTIR primer: http://www.fearthefin.com/2010/9/18/1697231/hockey-101-long-term-injury

 

Note that the salary doesn't "come off the books" and that they still have to account for Pronger's salary throughout the season. They don't get a magical $5M to sign a guy, and that amount only becomes available after training camp closes and the season begins. That's hampering right there, especially for a team thisclose to the cap ceiling.

 

And "tagging" isn't an issue as of tomorrow - the actual space of the qualifiers and the accepted deals is.

 

It's not "making too much of it" it's trying to make it "not a big deal" when, in fact, it does have a real, tangible effect on the teams' ability to negotiate and conclude deals.

 

A primary reason they are cap strapped and trying desperately to deal someone for a bag of pucks is Pronger's contract still on the books.

[Vanflyer]

yeah, i mean, flexibility is good.  the real thing is the 10% let's you wing it a little, and figure out the details later.  make the deal you can't afford, but so long as it isn't more than 10%, you've got two months to figure it out.  less overage equals more need to make it work right now, gain salary-lose salary, no layaways.  which, maybe isn't such a bad mode for the flyers to be in right now.

 

Thats what my thoughts were. Don't operate on pretend credit, operate within what is known. 

 

I get the flexibility part, but also see how when used by a less than astute gm, could get you into trouble. 

[aziz]

@radoran

 

you're...sending me a primer?

 

if the flyers end camp at $4.9mil over the cap ceiling, they can immediately assign pronger to the long term injured reserve, and will then receive $4.9mil of overage allowance.  the articles get into the timing of the cap space itself for maximum cap relief, but that isn't what we're discussing.  we can discuss it, if you like.  the examples in the one article are technically correct (as they are word for word from the CBA), but are misleading.  flyers can LTIR pronger on the last day of camp, and depending on the specifics of their cap situation at that moment, can get anywhere from full relief for his cap hit all the way to no relief.  right then, right away.  they don't have to hold their breath until opening night.  end camp $4.9mil over the cap is a perfect senario.  ending camp right exactly at the cap would work just as well, though no better.  ending a little above or a little below is where the problems arise.

 

look, it isn't great, but the only real problem is the reduced effective overage allowance during the offseason.  and while that sucks, even if you wanted to leverage all $6.9mil of overage in pure acquisitions (which, maybe not the best idea, really), you'd still have to find a way to get back to the cap at the end of camp.  only difference is that the flyers are now forced to open cap space to add a cap hit.  without pronger, they'd be able to add cap hit while planning on opening cap space in the next 6 weeks.  i don't think a little zero sum is the worst thing.

[Polaris922]

@radoran

Last season we had this same discussion in a thread. I pasted the exact wording from the CBA there that made it clear Pronger doesn't hurt you at the end of training camp/start of season. Technically he's LTIR that last day if camp so no restriction going into the season. It's here if you'd like to try to find it. But you can also find it in the CBA like I did if you're willing to do the search.

Which is why I said the only true penalty is his salary year in year out.

Edited July 1, 2014 by Polaris922

[radoran]

@radoran

 

you're...sending me a primer?

 

if the flyers end camp at $4.9mil over the cap ceiling, they can immediately assign pronger to the long term injured reserve, and will then receive $4.9mil of overage allowance.  the articles get into the timing of the cap space itself for maximum cap relief, but that isn't what we're discussing.  we can discuss it, if you like.  the examples in the one article are technically correct (as they are word for word from the CBA), but are misleading.  flyers can LTIR pronger on the last day of camp, and depending on the specifics of their cap situation at that moment, can get anywhere from full relief for his cap hit all the way to no relief.  right then, right away.  they don't have to hold their breath until opening night.  end camp $4.9mil over the cap is a perfect senario.  ending camp right exactly at the cap would work just as well, though no better.  ending a little above or a little below is where the problems arise.

 

look, it isn't great, but the only real problem is the reduced effective overage allowance during the offseason.  and while that sucks, even if you wanted to leverage all $6.9mil of overage in pure acquisitions (which, maybe not the best idea, really), you'd still have to find a way to get back to the cap at the end of camp.  only difference is that the flyers are now forced to open cap space to add a cap hit.  without pronger, they'd be able to add cap hit while planning on opening cap space in the next 6 weeks.  i don't think a little zero sum is the worst thing.

 

I'm mainly posting it for other people in the thread in case they weren't sure. Because I didn't have the specifics down pat.

 

And my primary point is "it isn't great" and it's much different than 

 

doesn't impact your salary cap one bit.

[Polaris922]

I'm mainly posting it for other people in the thread in case they weren't sure. Because I didn't have the specifics down pat.

And my primary point is "it isn't great" and it's much different than

doesn't impact your salary cap one bit.

It really doesn't. Rad I think it's a stupid contract and laugh at Holmgren for it as much as anyone. I'm a Pens fan... I love that it bit the Flyers. But the truth of it is when the season starts, he doesn't hurt you. Not one bit as far as the cap is concerned. It's not like he counts day 1 and THEN you can shop for a replacement. You can already have that replacement all off season.

The only real penalty the Flyers are seeing is they have to pay him. It has cost them millions to sign that contract.

[radoran]

Not one bit as far as the cap is concerned.

 

And, with respect, you remain wrong. Did you look at the links I provided?

 

They can't "replace" Pronger rightnow because they are too close to the cap even with the off-season exemption. Since they can't sign a $5M player rightnow, they can't have him "all off season". You have "when the season starts" it doesn't affect the Flyers and "can have (replacement) all offseason" in the same paragraph. Those two things are completely contradictory.

 

And the question of when they put him on LTIR does have affects beyond that.

 

If they trade Umburglar, VLC, Grossmann, etc. that can open up space that they can then "use" - but they don't have that space to "use" rightnow.

[aziz]

@radoran

You're right. Without Pronger, the Flyers would be able to add $11.6mil in cap hit today. As it stands, they can only add $6.7mil. That is the primary complication of the Pronger deal. Arguably, the only complication.

Here's the thing, though, the reason I don't see it as a big deal. If the Flyers added $11.6mil in cap hit over the next two months.... They'd still have to dump $6.9mil of that by opening day. You correctly point out that right now they'd need to move umberger, VLC, Grossman to open up the cap space to make a big add.... But even without Pronger, they'd need to do that anyway. Just not now, they'd have three months to get themselves even, but still, salary would have to be cleared. Either way. So, functionally, the Flyers are working with the same cap situation as anyone else, but have less figure-it-out-later space than a team without a permanently LTIR player.

[radoran]

You're right. Without Pronger, the Flyers would be able to add $11.6mil in cap hit today. As it stands, they can only add $6.7mil. That is the primary complication of the Pronger deal. Arguably, the only complication.

 

Well, and the fact that LTIR only gives you "relief" to the amount that you are over the cap.

 

The only idea I have taken issue with is the idea that the Pronger contract has absolutely no effect on the team whatsoever. That's just patently absurd on the face of it.

 

They don't "get" $4.9M in space the day Pronger goes on LTIR. They get relief to the amount that they are over the cap. So, for example, if they trade away without replacing all of VLC/Grossmann/Umburglar and they are thus $4.5M below the cap when the season starts, they would get $400K "relief" on the cap for Pronger's $4.9M. Obviously there are a lot of moving parts..

 

Here's "Scenario A" from the link above updated with new cap figures

 

 

On the last day of training camp, the Flyers have a cap payroll of $71,053,522 (excluding performance bonuses). Chris Pronger is placed on LTIR. By doing so, the Flyers will be deemed to have already replaced him and will not be eligible for further relief. This is because the team’s cap payroll exceeded the upper limit. If Pronger stays on LTIR all season, the cap payroll of the Flyers may not exceed $71,053,522 .

In layman’s terms, by embarking upon this scenario the Flyers will effectively only be able to exceed the salary cap by $2,053,522 under Chris Pronger’s LTIR exemption.

 

And Scenario B

 

On the last day of training camp, the Flyers have a cap payroll of $71,053,522 (excluding performance bonuses). "Players" are placed on waivers, effectively removing $2.1 million from the books.* The Flyers’ cap payroll would then be $68,953,522, slightly below the upper limit.

On the first day of the NHL season, the Flyers place Pronger on LTIR. Accounting for the LTIR exemption, the Flyers would then be afforded a maximum cap payroll of $73,848,473.

After that, the Flyers may recall "players". This would bring their cap payroll back up to $71,053,522. They would then have a remaining LTIR exemption of $2,841,429.

In layman’s terms, by embarking upon this scenario the Flyers will effectively be able to exceed the salary cap by $2,841,429 under Chris Pronger’s LTIR exemption.

 

It's really a heckuva "no effect whatsoever" that this situation has.

[aziz]

Well, and the fact that LTIR only gives you "relief" to the amount that you are over the cap.

Well, not exactly. LTIR allows relief to the amount required to "replace" the injured player's salary, with the qualification that if the team is over the cap at the time the player is placed on injured reserve, they are deemed to have already replaced the salary. their cap ceiling is adjusted to whatever cap number they were at prior to the LTIR, to a maximum of the standard ceiling plus the player's cap hit.

There are two problems with the scenarios provided. One, the introduction of opening day in the second one makes it sound like that day has some importance in the calculation. It doesn't. Two, they don't cover all situations, and obfuscate the relevant point. Which is that the team is able to exceed the cap ceiling by the amount required to replace the injured player's cap hit.

Your example of only having relief of $400k if Pronger is LTIR'd while the team is $4.5mil under the ceiling is a far better example. It would be the same if he were LTIR'd while the team was $400k over the ceiling. If the team is exactly at the ceiling, then they'd get $4.9mil in relief. If they are $4.9mil over the cap, they'd get $4.9mil in relief.

Again, those scenarios are word for word from the CBA, with "pronger" and "the Flyers" Swapped in for "the player" and "the club".... And CBA example scenarios seem intentionally written to shed as little light on the overall mechanics as possible.

[radoran]

Which is that the team is able to exceed the cap ceiling by the amount required to replace the injured player's cap hit.

 

As I read it, it says exactly that - and that the amount they can exceed the cap is based upon how much of the player's salary would have exceeded the cap.

 

Here's capgeek:

http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-does-long-term-injured-reserve-LTIR-work

 

Opening day does matter, not as I had originally thought, but because it can determine how much relief you do get. If Pronger is LTIR'd before the season starts, they can replace the amount above $69M that his contract represents. How they use opening day can mean (in the link provided almost $800K, below nearly $1M) in cap space for a cap-strapped team.

 

Again, lots of moving parts and of course there will be examples that could happen that minimize the effect that the contract does have on the Flyers' cap. One of those does involve opening day...

 

In the event, for example, that they can't move VLC/Umburglar for space. Capgeek rightnow has them at $69.2M - $200K over the cap (still needing a backup goalie and at least one depth forward). .Let's say Akeson ($900K qualifier), Laughton ($863K) with Lauridsen ($600K) as a seventh D and $1M for a competent backup tender.

 

$3.363M. $72.5M at the end of camp, Pronger LTIR'd and they get $3.5M in "relief" amount above the $69M cap - not $4.9M. (To be clear, aziz, I'm not saying you don't know all this, just illustrating for the thread).

 

Take off Pronger's contract and they are at $64.3M and can sign all of those guys - and if they do move VLC/Umburglar/MacDonald/Giroux () perhaps some upgrades - and still not have any cap worries whatsoever. Again, heckuvan impact this isn't having.

 

Say they sign those same guys and are $72.5M over the cap at the end of camp. Send BSchenn down for "conditioning" (as they have done to start a season before for cap purposes...*), Lauridsen and Rosehill ($675K) - $3.75M off the cap, $68.75M to start the season. Pronger LTIR'd after day one, Rosehill, Lauridsen and Schenn recalled - Flyers upper limit is $73.691 (an extra $1.1M over LTIR at the end of camp).

 

That $1.1M can make an important part for a cap-strapped team down the stretch.

 

 

 

 

* for the record, this is what I was conflating with the Pronger situation - when they sent Schenn down because one of his bonuses involved being in 82 games. That was the season Pronger actually got injured so it wasn't related to the LTIR exemption.

[aziz]

@radoran

Say they sign those same guys and are $72.5M over the cap at the end of camp. Send BSchenn down for "conditioning" (as they have done to start a season before for cap purposes...*), Lauridsen and Rosehill ($675K) - $3.75M off the cap, $68.75M to start the season. Pronger LTIR'd after day one, Rosehill, Lauridsen and Schenn recalled - Flyers upper limit is $73.691 (an extra $1.1M over LTIR at the end of camp).

This is what I mean by a sloppy example, though, because it mentions specific things that are not directly relevant. In the above example, it isn't that Pronger is put on injured reserve on/after the first day of the season that allows for additional relief. It is that they cleared cap hit via demotion to drop down to the cap ceiling before putting Pronger on injured reserve. Either go up to an overage exactly equal to the player's cap hit, or down to exactly the cap ceiling for maximum relief, but you can do it at any time. The example could be written where they demote the two players on the last day of camp, bringing them all but equal to the ceiling, and then LTIR Pronger the very next day. And then recall the two players. All a week or two in advance of opening night.

We're on a similar page, I don't mean to preach. The CBA is just so confusing to begin with, when they introduce moving parts to their examples and those parts don't have any practical impact is frustrating. People start looking for ways the irrelevant details relate to the big picture, and all kinds of misunderstandings happen.

[King Knut]

So we can go almost 7 million over and pay a fine with the overage policy right?  Screw it, let's keep Vinny to sharpen skates while we're at it.

 

Now we are over the cap

[Polaris922]

@radoran

I just don't see it as being a big deal. Honestly, a good numbers guy and attention to detail minimizes the impact so much it's a non-factor in my eyes. Is extra work created? Sure. But that's why the GM's and their advisors make the big money.

I full understand what you're saying. I just don't think it's that difficult to work around. Just a difference if opinion.

[canoli]

I'm not sure how it is biting them in the ass now. The 35+ aspect to it, anyway.

 

I thought "over-35 when signed" meant his whole cap hit counts against the cap if the team buys him out. If he'd been 34 we could've bought him out and been done with his big cap hit. I mean the regular buyout thing not the 2 "grace period" buyouts they gave everybody after the lockout. Wouldn't the Flyers have preferred to buy out Pronger once they knew he was finished for good?

 

I won't bother looking it up b/c I won't understand it even if I find the info. You guys who can wade thru contract compliance stuff and understand it - I salute you.

[Polaris922]

@canoli

If they buy him out he still counts against the cap for the duration of the contract because he was at the 35 year mark. Worse yet you can't LTIR him then and replace him.

[doom88]

@canoli

If they buy him out he still counts against the cap for the duration of the contract because he was at the 35 year mark. Worse yet you can't LTIR him then and replace him.

The capgeek buyout calculator said otherwise. Although, it didn't look particularly helpful to buy him out anyway.