The BSchenn Experiment Lasted Almost Five Periods

[jammer2]

  I've been a big proponent of being patient with Brayden...but damn, patience can only go so far. The work ethic has to be there for me to cut him any more slack. Do something to seperate yourself from the crowd...dive for a loose puck that would have otherwise been lost...bowl a d-man over and steal the puck from him, something....anything???

[brelic]

  I've been a big proponent of being patient with Brayden JVR...but damn, patience can only go so far. The work ethic has to be there for me to cut him any more slack. Do something to seperate yourself from the crowd...dive for a loose puck that would have otherwise been lost...bowl a d-man over and steal the puck from him, something....anything???

 

I repurposed your quote It's incredible how fitting it is to both JVR and Schenn's situation.

 

Or Carter.

 

The three of them are of the 'floater' side of things. We know Carter and JVR can score goals. Maybe it will be the case with Schenn too... floating be damned.

 

Look at the two simple charts of Schenn, JVR, and Carter (PPG and GPG). It's charted by player's age, and Schenn seems to be following a pretty normal path when compared to those two real world examples of players who eventually broke out and scored lots of goals.

 

EDIT - Slight mistake. The one labeled GPG is actually PPG and vice versa. The chart titles are wrong, but the legend has it right. Doh!

[Vanflyer]

Deal the Schenns now. Seriously.

 

I am not defending B. Schenn, but Raffl has done exactly what? Somebody tell me what he has done in the SEL, AHL, or NHL that is better or different than B. Schenn?

 

Just move B. Schenn after this. No sense in keeping him around. While I never thought he was top line player, Raffl is certainly not either.

 

Let the two Schenns go on their merry way and be done with it. Thats how I read it.

 

Oh and G better get his collective head out of his ass and start making his big pay check. I don't mean that on the score board, I mean that coasting around in the defensive end.

[brelic]

Somebody tell me what he has done in the SEL, AHL, or NHL that is better or different than B. Schenn?

 

There was an article on Philly.com today about exactly this. I think it was Carchidi Seravalli... anyway, he suspects it has something to do with analytics, where the top line had the best possession stats last year when Raffl was the third man on the line. I believe they had the worst with Schenn (and Schenn affects other players in a similar negative way).

 

Anyway, that might be what was behind giving Raffl a chance next. 

 

By Berube's clock, he should be moved off the line by the end of the 2nd tonight.

 

EDIT: http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20141014_B__Schenn_experiment_over_for_now.html

 

Perhaps Raffl's ascension to the top line is the first tangible impact on the Flyers' lineup of advanced statistics and analytics.

 

As the blog TwoPadStack.net pointed out this weekend, the Flyers' top line had their best puck-possession statistics with Raffl (and not Scott Hartnell) last season. That has to be something new director of hockey analytics Ian Anderson has noted.

 

In the 203 minutes they were on the ice last season, Raffl-Giroux-Voracek controlled nearly 60 percent of all shot attempts compared to just 40 percent for opponents.

 

Raffl also posted 10 points in 14 games during a stretch in December on the top line, compared to just 12 in his other 54 games.

 

 

[radoran]

I am not defending B. Schenn, but Raffl has done exactly what? Somebody tell me what he has done in the SEL, AHL, or NHL that is better or different than B. Schenn?

 

Just move B. Schenn after this. No sense in keeping him around. While I never thought he was top line player, Raffl is certainly not either.

 

Let the two Schenns go on their merry way and be done with it. Thats how I read it.

 

Oh and G better get his collective head out of his ass and start making his big pay check. I don't mean that on the score board, I mean that coasting around in the defensive end.

 

Something about "speed" or something. Probably a good thing they didn't keep Jay "Speedy" Rosehill.

 

Although I hear he's available as a call up...

 

where the top line had the best possession stats last year when Raffl was the third man on the line. I believe they had the worst with Schenn (and Schenn affects other players in a similar negative way).

 

Kinda makes one wonder why they ever took Raffl off the line.

 

Oh, right, after that 14 game stretch with 10 points he turned out to be Michael Raffl.

[Vanflyer]

Anyway, that might be what was behind giving Raffl a chance next.

 

I am not opposed to it and never thought B. Schenn was the right guy for that W position (thanks Homer). Just that while B. Schenn is not all that, what is Raffl?

 

Interesting on the analytics. And here we are on this forum always crunching numbers. Should we all send our resume's to the Flyers?

 

:-=P

[Vanflyer]

Perhaps Raffl's ascension to the top line is the first tangible impact on the Flyers' lineup of advanced statistics and analytics.

As the blog TwoPadStack.net pointed out this weekend, the Flyers' top line had their best puck-possession statistics with Raffl (and not Scott Hartnell) last season. That has to be something new director of hockey analytics Ian Anderson has noted.

In the 203 minutes they were on the ice last season, Raffl-Giroux-Voracek controlled nearly 60 percent of all shot attempts compared to just 40 percent for opponents.

Raffl also posted 10 points in 14 games during a stretch in December on the top line, compared to just 12 in his other 54 games.

 

Whats that baseball movie with Brad Pitt and the Oakland a's? The era has arrived. I welcome it. Will they hire any of us?? Lets start studying up on Corsi and the such, we can smooth our way in and then grease the wheels to the old mans office. All tongue and cheek.

 

This is no different than the NFL re: anal-it-cs. Seriously, at least its progress.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

@BobbyClarkeFan16

 

i really like the voice of calm and reason you bring to the forum.

At what point though does one put the responsibility on the player to learn a new position.  Call me crazy but I think we all see the writing on the wall regarding his chances of playing center for the Flyers and we're not even on the team.  At what point does he seek some extra work after practice, spend some time watching film,  get an idea of how his game can translate to the new responsibility ?  If it were me in his skates and i'm hearing that i may get time with Giroux and Jake and first line minutes, i'm preparing my ass off , hanging out in Kladno or Hearst getting into a rhythm with my new linemates.

 

 

I do admire his willingness to play wherever and do whatever right up to the point where he becomes ineffective.   If he's to play wing,  play wing.  And in the couple of seasons where has been on the wing ,he hasn't ,he's been a dilatant rather than seeking to become an expert.

 

I also the know second we trade him he's going to tear it up go on to lead his new team to multiple cups... because that's how we roll 'round here.

First, thanks for the compliment.

 

Second, player development is kind of a three step process (as far as I'm concerned). The player is responsible for working on things like skating, passing, shooting, knowing the playbook, etc....Second, the organization is responsible for ensuring that the player has every resource available to them in order to succeed. Third, the coaching staff is responsible for ensuring that the player knows what is expected of them and how they can achieve said goal. If said player is having problems with doing what the coaching staff is asking, then it's up to the coaching staff to find out why said player can't perform what's expected of them.

 

In the case of Schenn, the Flyers failed him. When they traded for him, they saw him as a goal scoring center. He played as a center and for the most part, did what was expected of him his first year. Second year rolls around and the lock out hits. At that point, the Flyers consider experimenting moving Schenn to the wing. Murray doesn't and instead, keeps Schenn and Couturier on separate lines. After season two, the Flyers go out and sign Lecavalier to "alleviate" some of the pressures on Schenn and Couturier. Instead, Schenn gets bumped all over the place because Vinny can't play wing and because Vinny is making $4.5 million per year, they only move Schenn back to center after the Vinny experiment fails considerably. 

 

Year four rolls around and now Schenn is finally being earmarked to play left wing. However, Giroux gets injured in camp and what does Berube do? He moves Schenn back to center. Yes, let's stunt Schenn's development on the wing even further in order to win meaningless games. And now that Schenn has had a whopping five periods to develop chemistry with Giroux while also learning the responsibilities of a new position, he gets demoted because he's not scoring right off the back.

 

Nope, this doesn't fall on Schenn. This falls on Flyers management and coaching staff for their lack of planning and lack of sticking to the plan. They've made Schenn a sacrificial lamb in their own failures to develop Schenn accordingly. At this point, maybe they should go back to Giroux - Couturier - Schenn - Lecavalier down the middle or, if they move Schenn, they get a big physical winger like Kassian (who I think is ready to break out and score 25 to 30 with the right center while being a nasty physical presence out there), a goal scoring winger like David Perron or Nail Yakupov (who has bought into the defensive side of the game in Edmonton), or maybe a young defender like Brandon Gormley (who for some reason or another, just can't cut it in Phoenix). 

 

It's a messed up situation in Philadelphia and I'm not sure if the coaching staff have the ability or patience to help Schenn get to the next level. I think a guy like Kassian would succeed because he's got that type of game that Berube likes. Now I understand why Holmgren initially wanted to draft Tom Wilson - a big physical goal scoring winger who can set the tone for the rest of the team.

[Vanflyer]

Yes, let's stunt Schenn's development on the wing even further in order to win meaningless games

 

Well articulated, but I call hogwash on that. Center is the hardest position to play outside of d / g. Moving from C to wing is easy and far less responsibility. Moving from W to C is extremely difficult.

 

You never mention things like B. Schenn coasting or taking shifts off or just plain being a waif. All are applicable and it has nothing to do with him being "jostled" from line to line or position to position. It has to do with his character.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

Well articulated, but I call hogwash on that. Center is the hardest position to play outside of d / g. Moving from C to wing is easy and far less responsibility. Moving from W to C is extremely difficult.

 

You never mention things like B. Schenn coasting or taking shifts off or just plain being a waif. All are applicable and it has nothing to do with him being "jostled" from line to line or position to position. It has to do with his character.

 

One of the things about Schenn when he was drafted was that scouts raved about his character. 

 

Now, I'm not an 'insider' or anything, but after Schenn's comments about only having five periods to develop chemistry with Giroux, I'm wondeirng if he's setting himself up for a trade so that he can play his preferred position. He hasn't asked for a trade yet and has said all the right things, but I've got to believe that he's not happy being bounced and that yes, the Flyers have most definitely derailed his development.

[Vanflyer]

but I've got to believe that he's not happy being bounced and that yes, the Flyers have most definitely derailed his development.

 

Good points and I think there is culpability on both sides. The VLC signing should have never happened. That eff'd up a bunch of things and its a domino effect from there. For B. Schenn, like his brother, he needs to be a pro. He will never live up to the "the best player not playing in the NHL" potential, but he could / should live up to being a solid 2nd line CENTER. He should stop wallowing and get his collective ass in gear and pack VLC's bags for him.

 

Its a cluster eff anyway you slice it. But truthfully, sense nobody is going to take VLC off out hands (for the contract he has), just jettison B. Schenn and L. Schenn and move on. No sense in letting it bleed.

[radoran]

For B. Schenn, like his brother, he needs to be a pro. He will never live up to the "the best player not playing in the NHL" potential, but he could / should live up to being a solid 2nd line CENTER. He should stop wallowing and get his collective ass in gear and pack VLC's bags for him.

 

All well and good, but if the coach refuses to play him at center and even if VLC goes down, still won't play him at center, I'm at a loss to figure out how Schenn makes that case for himself?

 

I'm not impressed with either Schenn, so I don't particularly care if they ever "get it right" with them - but I wholeheartedly agree that if they're just going to continue to go with the "forwards can play any forward positon on any line" mode of thinking, they should just go ahead and get rid of them both right now.

 

 

 

Moving from C to wing is easy and far less responsibility. Moving from W to C is extremely difficult.

 

I'd say easier but not necessarily "easy" - especially for guys who are lifelong centers.

 

The fly in your ointment here being that there are apparently at least two guys just on the Flyers who apparently have issues trying to move from C to W - and they just both so happen to be suited to the same 2nd line C position.

[Vanflyer]

All well and good, but if the coach refuses to play him at center and even if VLC goes down, still won't play him at center, I'm at a loss to figure out how Schenn makes that case for himself?

 

I don't get that either. The only thing I can figure out of that is the Bellamare is better than Schenn at C (which I agree with). I think the Schenn-Bellamare-Simmonds line could be very dangerous- if and only if G and Jake can get going. From day one, I loved the Bellamare signing. I have watched allot of across the pond hockey and this guy is not a soft euro. Perhaps long on the tooth, but he has wheels, skills and grit. I think that the flyers think (not just berube) that Schenn sucks at center- at least on the depth chart.

[radoran]

I don't get that either. The only thing I can figure out of that is the Bellamare is better than Schenn at C (which I agree with). I think the Schenn-Bellamare-Simmonds line could be very dangerous- if and only if G and Jake can get going. From day one, I loved the Bellamare signing. I have watched allot of across the pond hockey and this guy is not a soft euro. Perhaps long on the tooth, but he has wheels, skills and grit. I think that the flyers think (not just berube) that Schenn sucks at center- at least on the depth chart.

 

Right, which is why wqe both agree they should just cut him loose and be done with it.

 

The Schenns should IMO be able to garner a 20/50 guy at least.

[Vanflyer]

The Schenns should IMO be able to garner a 20/50 guy at least.

 

Done, make it happen. I would just take picks. This years draft is loaded beyond the top 10 / 1st round. The Flyers are not going to win anything this year anyway- let alone make the playoffs. Stockpile picks. Give me a 2nd for each of them and be done with it. Bygones are bygones.

[doom88]

Three centers, two spots. Giroux is 1C. The Flyers prefer Couturier. Therefore, if Schenn wants top six TOI, he's playing wing.

[radoran]

Three centers, two spots. Giroux is 1C. The Flyers prefer Couturier. Therefore, if Schenn wants top six TOI, he's playing wing.

Ok, and that's great, but Berube said VLC was centering that line, not Couturier.

[Vanflyer]

Ok, and that's great, but Berube said VLC was centering that line, not Couturier.

 

round and round we go, wherever we stop nobody knows.

[canoli]

All are applicable and it has nothing to do with him being "jostled" from line to line or position to position. It has to do with his character.

 

 

I think this nails it pretty well - and what I been saying for awhile now in different words ... that he looks energetic, involved, willing ("up on his skates" as they say) ...for 3 or 4 shifts/game. BSchenn doesn't lack anything except willingness - from what I can tell - to play that way all the time (or as often as the best players do - say 80% of their shifts).

 

Factor all the b.s. he's been through, add in the natural adjustments all young players must make...after that you're left with how he looks on the ice. Too many shifts he's The Invisible Man.

 

Yanking him off the top line after 4 periods is just more of the same from the Flyers re: BSchenn. Rad is right the Flyers haven't handled him with any kind of consistency (maybe what a young player needs most from his coaches). But BSchenn hasn't done himself any favors by disappearing for long stretches most nights.

[Vanflyer]

Yanking him off the top line after 4 periods is just more of the same from the Flyers re: BSchenn. Rad is right the Flyers haven't handled him with any kind of consistency (maybe what a young player needs most from his coaches). But BSchenn hasn't done himself any favors by disappearing for long stretches most nights.

 

Its probably knee jerk for sure. But, what- you did not see enough in pre-season to see it was not going to work??? For me- like the player, but after this jettison.

 

You know what that means?

 

After Carter / Richards- we have Simmonds. Richards is on a downslide too. Do you think LA would do Richards for B.S.?

[doom88]

Ok, and that's great, but Berube said VLC was centering that line, not Couturier.

I'm thinking long term, out loud. If VLC is remotely healthy this season, he'll be traded at the deadline.

[King Knut]

Who would take them?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20141014_B__Schenn_experiment_over_for_now.html

Deal the Schenns now. Seriously.

[radoran]

I'm thinking long term, out loud. If VLC is remotely healthy this season, he'll be traded at the deadline.

I agree on the long term. But I do think they have value in a 2a 2b scenario.

Regardless, both bros have taken nights off and need to show a lot more edge.

Somebody has to make them mad. And if this is Chief's way of trying to make Schenn angry - good for him!

[doom88]

I agree on the long term. But I do think they have value in a 2a 2b scenario.

Regardless, both bros have taken nights off and need to show a lot more edge.

Somebody has to make them mad. And if this is Chief's way of trying to make Schenn angry - good for him!

We shall see if we have a traditional four line team, or a three scoring line team plus energy line. The 3+1 could be a good team strategy, but I doubt the Flyers will commit to it.

[jammer2]

@brelic  Nice research bre....yeah, as a 22 year old, B.Schenn did put up 20 goals last year, not exactly chopped liver. I do think a lot of them were tack on goals, after the game had been decided. Not many game tying or go ahead goals in there...at least from what I remember. I betcha the chart looks normal on B.Schenn, his goal totals were more than respectable for a player of his age. The problem is where he was drafted and who he was traded for...and how he DOMINATED the world jrs after being a top selection. Those factors set the bar mighty high, and let's just say he has not been a world class high jumper.

 

   Like many have said, he *is* and always will be a useful NHL player, but as each game and week goes by, that special jaw dropping talent has been null and void....mostly looks like a kid going through the motions, content on being good but not great....in other words, he does not play "Flyerhockey"...which is a sure ticket out of town for most folks that are under the age of 35....lol.