mojo1917 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 hours ago, icehole said: Doughty-maybe he's the best player not named Crosby in the league - maybe ? come on man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 4:36 PM, icehole said: That's part of my beef with hextall...he hasn't put any effort into drafting any forwards. Defense is important, but how many teams can win with just defense? Also, how many teams play exciting hockey with just defense? I don't like going defense defense defense in the first round. I like the konekny pick but I'm looking for something bigger and faster. So I hope those defenseman turn out to be good players, because we're missing out on some offense to aquire them. You can point out Bryz and Vinny, but try to think about the positive deals Homer made. His deals made the team exciting and they were a top 1/3 team for a while. I'd take forsberg on one skate over the slop hextall puts out there every night. I know that wasn't a Homer deal but I'm not just talking about Homer...I'm talking about the old "flyers way" that I think is overly criticized. It wasn't all Bryz and Vinny deals. I still believe MacDonald was a hextall deal. You can believe that or not, but that's what I believe in my heart. I do like having cheap, young talent. Do the flyers have that...did I miss that acquisition? The Blackhawks are doing it right. They have an eye for talent that I'm not so sure Hextall has. They rented weise because of what he did with Montreal. Once they realized weise couldn't play, they didn't attempt to keep him. That's when Hexy said "I'll pay him $2.5m/4years for what he did two teams ago. He was invisible in Chicago but I don't care." You're probably right. Players who make the NHL before 22 are probably good enough to go before #10. The flyers got there and picked a defenseman. He looks good but I don't think he will be a game changer like a forward could be. Homer's biggest mistake may have been picking a responsible, defensive forward at #8. The flyers prospects approaching 22 probably aren't top 10 talent and that's why they haven't made the team yet. And unfortunately, it doesn't look like hextall's plan will get them picking top 10 anytime soon (unless he can deal his way into the top 10). I don't believe much in development leagues anymore. Back in the day, it was important to grow into being a "man" before you went into the NHL. It was a slower and tougher league with monster goons. Now, big, tough older men is the anomaly. Most of the league is small, fast kids under 25. The rules cater to small speed and skill players. You can work on speed and skill in a development league, but you basically are what you are by 18, 19, or 20. If development is so important to hextall and he won't rush prospects, why is konekny on the team? He is the definition of an underdeveloped player. He's a small kid with an immaturity to him. Provorov is very skilled but there's an immaturity to his game too. Yet Provorov is the NHL Flyers best defenseman and TK is probably better than anyone they play in the bottom 6. I think this is not true of the other prospects because they probably aren't very good. Let's hope I'm wrong. I think this all started when I said all prospects that are part of hextall's plan should make the team next year. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't we lose some of these bad contracts at the end of this season? Shouldn't that open up spots for these kids to make the team? If you could lose raffl, read, lyubimov, vandevelde, bellemare, streit, MDZ, and shultz, would you replace them with the hextall's prospects, would you trust hextall to sign FAs to replace those players, or would you rather keep some of those players? You know why Hextall drafted so many defensemen? Because defensemen take longer to develop than a forward does. That's a fact. The exception to this is Provorov and that's exactly that - an exception. Do you think Myers or Friedman will be on the Flyers next year? Not a chance. As for forwards, we know Konecny will be on the club next year, but it's possible that Vorobyov and Lindblom will be on the roster next year. That's two and three years after they were drafted, respectively. Look at Hagg, Morin and Sanheim. Hagg will have played in the AHL for three years before he cracks the NHL roster. Morin is looking at two full years and Sanheim will have spent a year in the AHL. Three separate defenseman, three separate time lines to the NHL. You need to be patient. As a fan of this club for nearly 40 years, Hextall is doing the right thing with drafting and developing. He's got a plan in place and it's a good plan to follow. He's had the most difficult assignment of any GM in that he's been forced to rebuild while keeping the club competitive. Look at every other GM in the league and nobody has had the situation that Hextall has had to inherit. Every other GM got the mandate to blow up their respective clubs and rebuild from scratch. Look at the dumpster fire in Arizona. Look at how many years Edmonton was a mess. Brad Treliving inherited a similar situation in Calgary, but they've missed the playoffs a few years now. Same with Vancouver. Look at those franchises and look at the Flyers and the Flyers are a much better situation. Don't forget there's a minimum $18.5 million dollars coming off the books this off season and if Read gets selected in the expansion draft, that number increases to $22 million. That's a lot of money to use to re-sign key guys and sign free agents or make deals with teams that are cap strapped. Hextall has positioned this club to be in great shape. Just be patient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 hours ago, icehole said: Doughty-maybe Subban in nashville-maybe Suter-probably not Webber, Keith, letang, and Hedman-definitely not the best or most important players on the team. Ekblad-what has Florida done? Those are good defensmen, but I'd take monteal's speed and skill forwards, Kane and toews, Crosby & malkin, stamkos and Johnson and druin and tampa's other speed forwards over anyone of the defensmen you listed. I think great forwards with crap defense will win every time over great defense and crap forwards. You know what never wins, above average defense and below average forwards...which is where the flyers may be headed. I'm not saying provorov is bad. I'm not saying he won't get better. He may even win the norris one day...just like Karlson did. Let's see. Doughty is probably the best overall defenseman in the game and Provorov compares very favourably to him. Subban is very good offensive defeneman and Suter is probably the second best defenseman in the game in that he logs so much ice time that he makes it seem effortless. Provorov is also similar to Suter in that aspect. Weber is probably the second most important player in Montreal behind Price. Don't think for one minute that the forwards in Montreal are more important than him. Duncan Keith is the straw that stirs the drink in Chicago with regards to defense and Hedman is definitely the most important player in Tampa Bay. He's the tone setter and leader there. Letang is incredibly underrated because he plays behind Crosby and Malkin and Ekblad has become the player that is shouldering the defensive load in Florida. All of those guys you mentioned are franchise players. There's a reason why they're so important to their clubs. There's a reason why teams want that number one defenseman in their lineup. I'll say it right now - a number one defenseman is more important that a number one center. Number one defenders often log big minutes and play in all situations. If you believe that a great offense but a bad defense can win, you're grossly mistaken. As for a great defense, it can often cover up for a bad offense and in most cases, makes a bad offense look fantastic. Want an example of that? Look at what's happening in Dallas. A bad defense is absolutely hamstringing a fantastic offense. Before this year, the Phoenix Coyotes were competitive based on the strength of their defense. Los Angeles doesn't win a Stanley Cup if it doesn't have the defense that it had. As for Erik Karlsson, I don't know if you're slagging on him or not, but he's a fantastic defenseman that I'm willing to bet 30 other teams around the league would LOVE to build their club around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 14 hours ago, King Knut said: Unless they have a clear idea of what's going on with Giroux that we're all not Privy to (imagine that) and that it can be solved with time (aka injury) I think he has to be considering something. Ottawa is in a good spot. They have a ton of cap room and already pretty good and no one's leaving any time soon. Giroux would be just the thing for a cup push year in and year out for a while to come. They might try to slough Bobby Ryan off onto us because he's got a big fat contract for a while to come and unloading him would make resigning Turris easier in a few years, especially if they add Giroux's 8+million for the next bazillion years. But I'd strongly consider it. G just looks utterly absent these days. He's not looking like a franchise center let alone a captain. He'd be going home his fiance is from the area too. It's a win win win. The problem is the Flyers would have solved absolutely nothing for the forseable future, but enabled themselves to be in a position in a few years. In the mean time the likes of Jake and Simmer and Schenn will no doubt be getting extremely restless. That is certainly an accurate statement regarding Giroux and not knowing what they have in him. If it is something correctable and they move him, then the Flyers have yet another huge hole to fill and Ottawa is looking at a cup or two. If it is that he has lost a step or two and Ottawa is willing to gamble on him, I agree that they would probably try and sack the Flyers with Ryan's contract. I guess it really is a catch 22. On a positive note, Giroux looked much better in last night's loss, if he just had some talent around him this may not even be a discussion. Not that Simmonds or Schenn are poor player, they just are not dynamic enough to lift Giroux's game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam1986 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 I called for G to be traded 2 yrs ago. If you does we need a skilled Center back plus. What team do you think he would fit in same for Jake. A few young guys will make team next, I like the way Wings do it earn your way from A or other leagues. The should do at least a year each prospect . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Jam1986 said: I called for G to be traded 2 yrs ago. If you does we need a skilled Center back plus. What team do you think he would fit in same for Jake. A few young guys will make team next, I like the way Wings do it earn your way from A or other leagues. The should do at least a year each prospect . you be right typing phone are you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, murraycraven said: you be right typing phone are you? I read your post in this dude's voice: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheesesteak Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/21/2017 at 4:36 PM, icehole said: That's part of my beef with hextall...he hasn't put any effort into drafting any forwards. Defense is important, but how many teams can win with just defense? Also, how many teams play exciting hockey with just defense? I don't like going defense defense defense in the first round. I like the konekny pick but I'm looking for something bigger and faster. So I hope those defenseman turn out to be good players, because we're missing out on some offense to aquire them. While I agree that the Flyers definitely need help at forward, I think the smart play with drafting defense the past few seasons is, traditionally, they take longer to develop. So, they draft a bunch of D, let them develop for a few years, and you then draft some forwards. By the time the D is ready, the forwards will be too. JMHO (Ooops, just read BCF16's post stating same thing.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 19 hours ago, mojo1917 said: he's the best player not named Crosby in the league - maybe ? come on man Says who? Obviously you have a thing for defensmen...I do not. I think defense is the thing that puts you over the top, not what you start to build your team with. You win a round or two but get burned before the finals and you say " we need to add a defenseman or two to get to the next level". Sometimes there's a goalie to bail you out, but if your forwards can't score, you have a major problem...unless you have defensmen that can't help with the scoring. That's why doughty is so important...but not the second best player in the league. I look at provorov as more of a defensive defensman. I'm very happy to have that because the flyers need that. I just wouldn't pick one that high. If the ghost of last year could play better defense, I'd take him a little higher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, icehole said: Says who? Obviously you have a thing for defensmen...I do not. I think defense is the thing that puts you over the top, not what you start to build your team with. You win a round or two but get burned before the finals and you say " we need to add a defenseman or two to get to the next level". Sometimes there's a goalie to bail you out, but if your forwards can't score, you have a major problem...unless you have defensmen that can't help with the scoring. That's why doughty is so important...but not the second best player in the league. I look at provorov as more of a defensive defensman. I'm very happy to have that because the flyers need that. I just wouldn't pick one that high. If the ghost of last year could play better defense, I'd take him a little higher. If you think Ghost is better than Provorov...LMFAO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, icehole said: I look at provorov as more of a defensive defensman. I'm very happy to have that because the flyers need that. I just wouldn't pick one that high. If the ghost of last year could play better defense, I'd take him a little higher. HUH?!? Prov has a WAY higher ceiling than Ghost and the odds are he is going to be a much better all around player. I think you are discounting Prov's offensive skills a bit. Prov has a legit chance to be a top pairing d-man. Ghost will never be that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 19 hours ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: You know why Hextall drafted so many defensemen? Because defensemen take longer to develop than a forward does. That's a fact. The exception to this is Provorov and that's exactly that - an exception. Do you think Myers or Friedman will be on the Flyers next year? Not a chance. As for forwards, we know Konecny will be on the club next year, but it's possible that Vorobyov and Lindblom will be on the roster next year. That's two and three years after they were drafted, respectively. Look at Hagg, Morin and Sanheim. Hagg will have played in the AHL for three years before he cracks the NHL roster. Morin is looking at two full years and Sanheim will have spent a year in the AHL. Three separate defenseman, three separate time lines to the NHL. You need to be patient. As a fan of this club for nearly 40 years, Hextall is doing the right thing with drafting and developing. He's got a plan in place and it's a good plan to follow. He's had the most difficult assignment of any GM in that he's been forced to rebuild while keeping the club competitive. Look at every other GM in the league and nobody has had the situation that Hextall has had to inherit. Every other GM got the mandate to blow up their respective clubs and rebuild from scratch. Look at the dumpster fire in Arizona. Look at how many years Edmonton was a mess. Brad Treliving inherited a similar situation in Calgary, but they've missed the playoffs a few years now. Same with Vancouver. Look at those franchises and look at the Flyers and the Flyers are a much better situation. Don't forget there's a minimum $18.5 million dollars coming off the books this off season and if Read gets selected in the expansion draft, that number increases to $22 million. That's a lot of money to use to re-sign key guys and sign free agents or make deals with teams that are cap strapped. Hextall has positioned this club to be in great shape. Just be patient. I know what you're saying. Who is forcing Hextall to stay competitive during the rebuild though? I thought Holmgren and Hextall basically run things now. Hextall doesn't strike me as a guy that takes orders from Holmgren. Whoever is making that call, I think that is a big mistake. I've said it before, holmgren had his way and they became a good but not great team. I think Hextall is doing something completely different, but in the end they'll be a good but not great team. They need a few stars. Maybe their #10-#30 picks will become stars, but there's a slim chance that happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, murraycraven said: HUH?!? Prov has a WAY higher ceiling than Ghost and the odds are he is going to be a much better all around player. I think you are discounting Prov's offensive skills a bit. Prov has a legit chance to be a top pairing d-man. Ghost will never be that.... I think he's also forgetting Ghost is almost FOUR years older than Provorov...who's already a better all around player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: If you think Ghost is better than Provorov...LMFAO! Yeah...that's exactly what I said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, icehole said: Says who? Obviously you have a thing for defensmen...I do not. I think defense is the thing that puts you over the top, not what you start to build your team with. You win a round or two but get burned before the finals and you say " we need to add a defenseman or two to get to the next level". Sometimes there's a goalie to bail you out, but if your forwards can't score, you have a major problem...unless you have defensmen that can't help with the scoring. That's why doughty is so important...but not the second best player in the league. I am probably going to regret throwing my opinion in this ring, but if you have quick defenders that can cut off the angles of opposing forwrds and passing attempts of those forwards, then in essence their scoring would be reduced. Keeping the forwards on the boards as some say. Also, to be offensively successful you need a solid breakout and this requires a steady defense. Defensemen eat up the most minutes (in most cases) and dictate the overall tempo of the game. Without solid defense, what we love to debate on here would be called the National Shinny League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 2 minutes ago, icehole said: Yeah...that's exactly what I said. You REALLY think that Ghost is a better dman than Prov? Seriously? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 5 minutes ago, murraycraven said: HUH?!? Prov has a WAY higher ceiling than Ghost and the odds are he is going to be a much better all around player. I think you are discounting Prov's offensive skills a bit. Prov has a legit chance to be a top pairing d-man. Ghost will never be that.... I didn't say he didn't. I'm not even sure ghost will be a decent player anymore. I was only saying ghost from last year mixed with better defense is better than provorov(right now). Ghost isn't the ghost of last year, and his defense got worse. Hence, ghost is not better than provorov. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, icehole said: Yeah...that's exactly what I said. well, it does appear that is what you said "exactly" so I am confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 8 minutes ago, murraycraven said: You REALLY think that Ghost is a better dman than Prov? Seriously? Is this a joke or a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 9 minutes ago, murraycraven said: You REALLY think that Ghost is a better dman than Prov? Seriously? Ahhh...you edited! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, icehole said: Says who? Obviously you have a thing for defensmen...I do not. I think defense is the thing that puts you over the top, not what you start to build your team with. You win a round or two but get burned before the finals and you say " we need to add a defenseman or two to get to the next level". Sometimes there's a goalie to bail you out, but if your forwards can't score, you have a major problem...unless you have defensmen that can't help with the scoring. That's why doughty is so important...but not the second best player in the league. I look at provorov as more of a defensive defensman. I'm very happy to have that because the flyers need that. I just wouldn't pick one that high. If the ghost of last year could play better defense, I'd take him a little higher. I think conventional wisdom around the NHL is exactly the opposite. if you get lucky enough to pull off a Crosby/Malkin or McDavid or Matthews or Kane type pick, then absolutely you obviously do that, but in all of those instances, the team itself doesn't start to succeed if it hasn't shored up it's Defense. For example, Kane was a big addition to the Hawks, but they won those cups based on what they'd been building with Keith and Toews and Seabrook and Campbell. Maybe the Hawks don't win that first cup without Kane and Sharp, but that team was only in a position to have Kane and Sharp put them over the top because of what they'd already been building for years with the other guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 30 minutes ago, icehole said: Yeah...that's exactly what I said. Comment Withdrawn. We are obviously being trolled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 27 minutes ago, icehole said: I didn't say he didn't. I'm not even sure ghost will be a decent player anymore. I was only saying ghost from last year mixed with better defense is better than provorov(right now). Ghost isn't the ghost of last year, and his defense got worse. Hence, ghost is not better than provorov. Oh I get it. Good one. You got us good. I withdraw my snide comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
icehole Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 Just now, King Knut said: That's an interesting perspective. Can I ask which strain of crack you're on at the moment? It's hard to convey sarcasm over words on screen. That's not what I was saying. I tried to clear it up with MC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 4 minutes ago, icehole said: It's hard to convey sarcasm over words on screen. That's not what I was saying. I tried to clear it up with MC. I'm still confused, but I eventually figured out you were being sarcastic and I apologize for being snide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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