Carchidi Wants Blowup

[Howie58]

Sam Carchidi of the Inquirer just posted this.  He may have been reading us.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170219_Time_to_break_up_the_flawed_Flyers.html

 

The comments on Giroux are strong.  His drop-off can't be ignored.  It's hard to disagree with what's said. 

 

 

[hf101]

1 hour ago, Howie58 said:

Sam Carchidi of the Inquirer just posted this.  He may have been reading us.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170219_Time_to_break_up_the_flawed_Flyers.html

 

The comments on Giroux are strong.  His drop-off can't be ignored.  It's hard to disagree with what's said. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

LOL, it wouldn't be the first time.  

 

But he is not completely correct in this statement:   

Quote

Try to get some draft picks for soon-to-be unrestricted free agents Mark Streit, Nick Schultz, and Michael Del Zotto, three defensemen who don't figure to be here next season. And attempt to get a team to throw in a backup goalie who can be exposed in the expansion draft, enabling the Flyers to protect Anthony Stolarz.

 

 

... The Flyers can choose to protect Stolarz, they don't need a backup goalie to be exposed, they have Mason and Neuvirth to expose.  -- Both aren't being traded.

 

 

[Philly29]

If we miss the playoffs and really crap out and if our 1st rounder turns out to be pretty high I would love to trade that and a player or two and move up and grab Nolan Patrick.

 

I disagree with bringing up Morin, why subject him to this mess?

 

Have him stay in LV and get into the playoffs and make a run for the Calder so they know what it is like to win and grow with as a team like so many on this forum have said.

[Howie58]

41 minutes ago, hf101 said:

 

LOL, it wouldn't be the first time.  

 

But he is completely wrong in this statement:   

... The Flyers can choose to protect Stolarz, they don't need a backup goalie to be exposed, they have Mason and Neuvirth to expose.  -- Both aren't being traded.

 

 

HF: Even if they are both free agents next year?  I thought you couldn't protect folks who were off contract in '18?  

[hf101]

8 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

HF: Even if they are both free agents next year?  I thought you couldn't protect folks who were off contract in '18?  

 

Hey Howie,

The Flyers are allowed to protect 1 goalie as the Expansion draft is before free agency.  Thus the Flyers can simply choose to protect Stolars.  Also, prior to the Expansion draft all would be free agents on July 1 are allowed to talk with Vegas on the specific dates given.  ( I didn't look them up)  If one of say Mason or Neuvirth sign they become the Flyers pick for expansion.

 

Thus Stolars is protected, and the Flyers could then sign the remaining goalie  prior to July 1.--- if they so choose. 

 

also this.  http://sinbin.vegas/curious-role-ufas-expansion-draft/

[Howie58]

HF: Thanks for the clarification. I don't see Neuvy or Mason in Flyers jerseys next year. At this stage, I'd be happy to see Stolarz and other. 

[FD19372]

3 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

HF: Thanks for the clarification. I don't see Neuvy or Mason in Flyers jerseys next year. At this stage, I'd be happy to see Stolarz and other. 

I'd be more than fine with neither of them coming back. Mason's play is bi-polar, Neuvirth gets injured too often. I just hope IF they sign a FA goalie, it isn't a middle of the road one for 9 years, 51 million ever again.

[hf101]

12 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

HF: Thanks for the clarification. I don't see Neuvy or Mason in Flyers jerseys next year. At this stage, I'd be happy to see Stolarz and other. 

 

 

 

Actually looking at this goalie thing more.  The Flyers might have to sign one of Mason or Neuvirth to fulfill the Goalie rule to expose them. Or like Carchidi says get a goalie to fulfill this requirement before the trade deadline.

Quote

iii) One goaltender who is under contract in 2017-18 or will be a restricted free agent at the expiration of his current contract immediately prior to 2017-18. If the club elects to make a restricted free agent goaltender available in order to meet this requirement, that goaltender must have received his qualifying offer prior to the submission of the club's protected list.

 

 

 

[vis]

Flyers need a goalie to expose in the expansion draft.  As UFAs, neither Mason nor Neuvirth satisfy the requirements.   They will have to sign or trade for someone.  

 

Agree 100% with everything Carchidi said.  Flyers are fooling themselves if they think they should be anything but deadline sellers.  Everyone over 20 years old should be available, except Simmonds.  In addition to calling up Morin, I'd call up Sanheim.  Although, maybe Hagg has a decent shot to see some time.  

 

Re: Giroux - it's midboggling how terrible he is 5v5.  A player with his skill, albeit diminished over time, should be a much better player at even strength.

 

How much $$ would they have to eat if they were to trade him?  $2m/yr?  I think I would do that for a decent package.  

 

They better have a plan to find another 1C.  And 2C.  

 

Realistically, who could be trade partners?  Keep in mind that G has a NMC.  

[icehole]

I agree with blowing it up, but it's not that easy.  I don't know who would take voracek or giroux with their salaries.  Giroux has a no movement, so he would have to agree to his destination.  Any team willing to give up a young talent for giroux is probably hurting anyway.  Is giroux going to agree to go to a struggling team like Colorado?  You're stuck with him.

 

Voracek's contract is unsellable.  You're stuck with him.  I don't know if couturier had value two years ago, but I think it would be difficult to sell that contract and get something in return for a third line player.  You're stuck with him, or you get low value in return.

 

Everyone else doesn't have any value in a trade anyway...except for schenn.  His offensive numbers are decent and he leads the NHL in PP goals (I think).  You can sell that.  His contract if friendly enough to take on too.  He probably won't get you a star, but at least you can take a shot at trying to change something on this pathetically boring team.

 

I'm really starting to think Hextall burried this team.  The only way he can turn this around is if provorov becomes a top 5 defenseman in the league, TK becomes a top 10 forward, sanheim or whoever is the popular name right now becomes a good 1st or 2nd pairing NHL player, Morin plays well enough to make the team and add toughness (from what I've seen from a few phantoms games, he doesn't look good), their young goalies can make the team, and he hits on 2 free agent signings.

 

That's a lot of "ifs".  Can someone put a more positive spin on this mess?  Right now I hate Hextall.  I think I hate him as much as I hate couturier....maybe more.  He has taken my hockey passion away.  I can't even stay awake for the third periods of 7pm games.  I won't even stay awake to watch a second of a 10pm game, I don't even care when the next game is, and I find myself DVRing the game and fast forwarding through most of the game.

 

F%$k you Hextall.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

10 hours ago, hf101 said:

Mason and Neuvirth to expose

 

Really? Not sure that is possible i thought the criteria was they have to be under contract for next year.

 

Edit: Ok nevermind i see where you stated that i posted before reading through.

[vis]

@icehole

 

They will have to eat salary if they deal G or V.  The more they eat, the better the return.  Not sure where the balance lies, especially given the length of their contracts.  It's one thing to eat salary for a couple of years.  But these guys have long term deals.  Would be problematic if in four years dead cap space hampers them from making a move.  

 

In any event, I don't think they can afford to trade both.  Of the two, I think V is easier to deal.  He's younger and doesn't have an NMC.  But, at this point, he's the better player.  

 

I am pessimistic about the team and its near term future.  Looking around the league, competitive teams have at least one star player.  The Flyers have none.  Provorov has potential, but that remains to be seen.  I think Konecny will be a good player, with shortcomings, but not a star.   No other prospect has star quality.  

 

So how do they get competitive?  They have to pick in the top 5 in at least a couple of drafts.  You can do that if you stop pretending to be a PO team and blow it up.  Or get lucky in the lottery.

 

Oh, and they need to sign FAs that make sense.  I'm not saying they have to sign star players.  But they need guys who compete, lead and are tough.  The Weise signing is inexcusable.  Gordon is harmless, but demonstrates another swing and a miss by Hextall.  

 

And Hakstol needs to find a way to make these guys hard to play against.  It's not all personnel.  These team is charmin soft.  They peel off checks, they get pushed around, they don't fight for space, they fail to win 50-50 pucks.   Just boring, brutal to watch.  It's pathetic.  

[hf101]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Really? Not sure that is possible i thought the criteria was they have to be under contract for next year.

 

Edit: Ok nevermind i see where you stated that i posted before reading through.

 

 

The 48 hour window has been said it will be prior to teams summiting who they protect.  So I'll assume that leaves some time to sign Mason or Neuvirth then expose them before the deadline of the protected lists, 5:00 p.m. eastern standard time on Saturday, June 17, 2017.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, hf101 said:

 

The 48 hour window has been said it will be prior to teams summiting who they protect.  So I'll assume that leaves some time to sign Mason or Neuvirth then expose them before the deadline of the protected lists, 5:00 p.m. eastern standard time on Saturday, June 17, 2017.

 

 

But do you think they would go for that?? I mean if they intend to sign WITH the Flyers they expect to play for the Flyers.

 

Surely (if it is me i wouldn't) because i'd want to decide where i went especially if i'm a free agent and i would want to name my terms for said team.

 

I can't see that flying. 

[murraycraven]

For 3 years we have seen the "In Hexy We Trust" moniker all over this board and all over any Flyers fan page.   The simple fact is that fans were on board b/c (1) he had a different approach to building a team and (2) he was simply not Homer.   There are a few on this board that have never bought into that BS since Hextall took over and chose to let Hextall's coronation wait until another day - you know, when things actually started taking shape.

 

I love the process of what Hextall is doing.  Build through the draft and add pieces when necessary.   I do believe Hextall has added through the draft but we really do not know if we have any "franchise" pieces yet.  Prov looks like the real deal but it will be a few years until we know if he can truly be an elite defender.   TK is a nice player and if he ends up being a top 6 forward I would consider that a success - he is not a star player in the NHL but he will be a nice player.   As it stands right now all the others are prospects - unproven but should provide some cause for excitement.   

 

Looking at what Hextall has done as GM when it comes to signing players really gives me a long pause and the reason for my disbelief in Hextall.   Understand and recognizing talent is one thing - knowing how to build a Team is another.   We all talk about the "Plan" like it is some type of sacrament but we should be questioning the plan.    We are in year 3 of the original 5 year plan and nowhere closer to the goal.   Trying to win and trying to remain competitive is like trying to fill a bucket with water - only the bucket has holes all over it.   As Hextall tries to remain competitive other Teams are gaining ground and have "franchise" players to build around.   The East is not getting easier and we have simply not gotten much better - if at all.

 

Banking on G and Vorachek to be the star players of this Team is truly a major wrench in the plan.   Last I checked G was 252nd in the league (!!!!) in 5 vs 5 scoring.   He has become a PP specialist that appears to have lost a step.  He is not the type of player that is going to carry this Team.   Jake was signed to a bloated/ridiculous contract after his breakout year.   Hextall created the market and paid him like a top player in this league - the thing is Jake is not a top star talent in this league.  He is a very nice player but nowhere near what his contract tells us he should be.  To top it off he didn't even need to sign Jake when he did.    

 

Hextall was part of the McDud signing, overpaying GROSSLY for Weise and bringing in Gordon.   Gordon I can throw away as a low risk deal but there has been a trend with Hextall's signings - overvaluing players and giving them contracts that are questionable at best.   He also signed Couts to a deal that was based on potential and now realizing that Couts (i hope he realizes) is not a 2C in this league and is better served as a defensive 3C.

 

Hextall went against the grain and hired a college Coach instead of getting a Coach that has NHL experience.  It remains to be seen how this is going to pan out but right now there are valid concerns.   

 

This isn't about doom and gloom but the questionable signs have always been there with Hextall.  I am not saying this is not going to work out but there are serious questions on how he is going to mold this Team going forward.   Having two players paid at 8+M a year that are not stars and not producing makes things very tough.   

 

We are talking about year 3 of a 5 year plan so when do we stop blaming Homer and start really questioning Hextall?   We are still talking 3-5 years away from contending in my estimation.    I hope he knows what he is doing b/c from where I sit I see more questions/concerns than answers.

[flyerrod]

16 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Hextall was part of the McDud signing,

He was an assistant GM. I am not sure he had much options(decision-wise) with Homer at the helm. That gem gets hung on Homer.

 

22 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

overpaying GROSSLY for Weise and bringing in Gordon

Weise was a better performer than he is currently showing to be. I question the length of that contract  moreso than the money. Wiese's contract is not the NMC that MacDud's is.

 

26 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Banking on G and Vorachek to be the star players of this Team is truly a major wrench in the plan.   Last I checked G was 252nd in the league (!!!!) in 5 vs 5 scoring.   He has become a PP specialist that appears to have lost a step.

Giroux has not been the same player since returning from the World Championships. I would venture to say he is playing through an injury that will need to be addressed with surgery in the off season but of course we will not get that report until after the season.

[RonJeremy]

I agree with most of these posts..we have some good young prospects in goal and on defense and we have a couple of wingers like Labarge and Lindholm who are potential second liners and we have Rubstov who is probably our top offensive prospect. Other than that,  if you think Weal or Leier are going to save the day you are dreaming. 

 

Even if Morin, Haag and Sanheim make the team next year, we would have the least experienced blueline in the league. We need a Pronger type veteran to anchor the blueline and mentor all the young guys. Its going to be 3 years before any of these guys have enough experience to be a factor and to play consistent hockey. I also cannot see us having a defense with 3 rookies and 2 guys with 2 years experience,  (provo and ghost). We probably need 2 vets , 2 rookies and provo , ghost.

 

The other problem is we have no impact wingers that are gonna step in and bang home 30 goals. Again, our offensive prospects are a few years away from helping. So by then Giroux will be on the downslide if he isnt already. So if we can get a similar deal for Giroux/Voracek as we did for Carter and Richards that may be the most realistic move to make.

 

You can get NHL ready young players and who can step in and grow along with our young defense, and not have two overpaid guys that will be washed up by the time we are a contender. You can also free up big $.

[murraycraven]

27 minutes ago, flyerrod said:

He was an assistant GM. I am not sure he had much options(decision-wise) with Homer at the helm. That gem gets hung on Homer.

 

Weise was a better performer than he is currently showing to be. I question the length of that contract  moreso than the money. Wiese's contract is not the NMC that MacDud's is.

 

Giroux has not been the same player since returning from the World Championships. I would venture to say he is playing through an injury that will need to be addressed with surgery in the off season but of course we will not get that report until after the season.

 

Sorry but I find t hard to believe the asst GM was not in the discussions around McDud.

 

Weise contract in money and years is both bad.   How many teams has he been on the last 3 years?   

 

If he is playing w an injury that is on him, Hextall and the organization... Although his numbers over the past few years suggest it is a decline....

 

 

[notfondajane]

I  know that I said this way to often, should the Flyers are interested in a backup goaltender,  would Fleury fit the bill for the short term until a goaltender comes thru your minor league system that would fill that spot? I'm  honestly curious about that!

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, notfondajane said:

I  know that I said this way to often, should the Flyers are interested in a backup goaltender,  would Fleury fit the bill for the short term until a goaltender comes thru your minor league system that would fill that spot? I'm  honestly curious about that!

 

HELL NO!

 

Anymore questions?

 

[FD19372]

8 minutes ago, notfondajane said:

I  know that I said this way to often, should the Flyers are interested in a backup goaltender,  would Fleury fit the bill for the short term until a goaltender comes thru your minor league system that would fill that spot? I'm  honestly curious about that!

On the surface, that would be a good idea. Fleury has been a good team player while Murray has taken over the reigns, and would bring an excellent backup who has valuable experience. However, 5 million per year for a guy who's been a backup for a while is too rich for this team's blood. Especially when there are so many other holes to fill.

[notfondajane]

44 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

HELL NO!

 

Anymore questions?

 

I apologize for making you extremely angry!  Lol

[notfondajane]

42 minutes ago, FD19372 said:

On the surface, that would be a good idea. Fleury has been a good team player while Murray has taken over the reigns, and would bring an excellent backup who has valuable experience. However, 5 million per year for a guy who's been a backup for a while is too rich for this team's blood. Especially when there are so many other holes to fill.

It is possible for the Pens to pay a small part of the contract  (tho the Pens are up against the cap as well!) I think the Pens have a netminder at WBS (forgot the spelling of his name) that could come up! (I'm not sure if he's N.H.L ready at this point) 

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

I'm all for blowing it up. The Flyers had a chance to build properly in 2006 - 2007 and instead, Holmgren went nuts. If he would have stuck to just acquiring Hartnell and Timonen and continue building through the draft, things would have been OK. But instead, he couldn't resist the lure of Danny Briere and then everything else just went down hill from there. He overspent, he had to part with picks and prospects to correct mistakes, he left the cupboards dry in terms of prospects, he had next to no draft picks left and he handcuffed the team with just incorrect move after move after move. He left Hextall next to nothing and the Flyers left Hextall with a mandate of trying to win and make chicken salad out of chicken ****.

 

Hextall has done a good job getting rid of the bad contracts that Holmgren signed guys to. He's also done a good job of drafting and restocking the pipeline with prospects and young players. Hextall has still be saddled with bad deals in that MacDonald is a noose around the neck of the team and the Giroux contract is starting to look horrible. Hextall also hasn't done the team any favours with the Voracek contract (I still believe he should have been dealt in the last year of his deal) and the Weise contract is looking bad (there's only two years left on it and honestly, I don't think anyone thought he would drop off the way he has).

 

The biggest issue right now with the club is that they are half way through a build and we're seeing what you normally see with a club halfway through a build - some players fit, some players don't and it's going to be mired in mediocrity. We have guys playing on the club that simply shouldn't be playing and guys who are playing roles that they simply don't have the skills to play. That's simply what happens when you're waiting for prospects to develop and fit into the roles they're being groomed for.

 

As I mentioned, I'd blow it up simply because by the time the young defense is Stanley Cup caliber and the goaltending is ready, Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds will probably be on the downside of their careers. I think getting something good for them while they're still relatively good players is imperative. Now, I know Giroux is a hot topic because of how his play has dropped, but if you look and closely watch his game, you can see he's labouring to get through. You can also see some visible signs of discomfort when he's skating. He's hurt, no doublt in my mind about that. He's only playing because he's got the C on his shirt. If the Flyers move him, I guarantee that whatever club acquires him, they take the C off him, let him play and let him get healthy and he goes on to being the Giroux of old again. I get if you're moving Giroux, you're going to take back less for him, but I saw on one board, one Calgary fan was willing to part with Monahan, Klimchuk and Calgary's 1st for him. If that deal exists, I'm all over it.

 

As well, I think once you move Giroux, Voracek would be the next to want out. I think he's a great fit for Washington, especially with Justin Williams and TJ Oshie up for new deals. Move Voracek for Burakovsky and Vrana and you've just completely rebuilt the forwards on the club. That leaves Simmonds. You could hold on to him or move him while his value is high and still under contract.

 

That's it. Three moves - clear off $20 million in cap space and acquire one $6 million dollar player in Monahan. The Flyers would be younger, bigger and be able to grow with the defense. I hope they do it.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

15 hours ago, Howie58 said:

Sam Carchidi of the Inquirer just posted this.  He may have been reading us.

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20170219_Time_to_break_up_the_flawed_Flyers.html

 

The comments on Giroux are strong.  His drop-off can't be ignored.  It's hard to disagree with what's said.

 

There's only one thing I hate about the article and that's calling this year's draft 'weak.' It's not a weak draft. The issue is that the majority of the first round players aren't ready to jump into the NHL right away and that you're looking at a 2 to 3 year window before they set foot in the league. As well, this draft is a heavy European flavoured draft and North American scouts just simply haven't seen enough of the Europeans to come to a consensus about them. There's lots to like about guys like Elias Pettersson, Martin Necas, Timothy Liljegren, Miro Heiskanen, Lias Andersson, Klim Kostin, etc....The list goes on and on with the European prospects. There's A LOT to like about them.

 

It's just lazy reporting on Carchidi's part to call the draft weak. It's not weak, not by a long shot. There's a lot of good players there and there's lots of depth. You might not get a generational superstar, but you're definitely getting top line players in this draft, no doubt about it. I contacted one of my scout friends to ask about this and he said it's a North America-bias more than anything. The North American scouts haven't seen the Europeans and the North Americans that are in this draft, some don't measure up to a Crosby or McDavid or Stamkos or anything like that. However, you're definitely getting good picks in this draft and if you follow your draft board, you'll hit on the guys you want. This is going to be a draft that will be better evaluated in 7 to 10 years simply because no one is really ready to make the jump yet.