murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: it's actually not that ugly. agree to an extent... I am saying "ugly" all around and that includes the players and coaches. They *could* have won some of those games but they just are fragile right now. The goalies have not been the issue but they have not stolen a game either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, brelic said: I actually pointed that out to @elmatus the other night. If Voracek were any further on the perimeter on that 2 on 1, he'd be watching the game from the seats. But, that's Voracek's game. There's only ONE season where he wasn't a perimeter player - the season Jagr was here. He wasn't a net presence guy, but definitely more involved and confident in his own skills. I think he lacks confidence in himself. He is a prototypical perimeter player who racks up points in spite of his nervous play, so there's less incentive to grow. He definitely has skill - it's just unrefined. took the words out of my mouth. could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 4 minutes ago, King Knut said: I agree. The problem I have is that I look at them and I see a team that could be having a lot more success already. Even without the secondary scoring. Even with 3-4 rookies on defense. Even with the injuries and suspensions. I'm not so sure. All of those things you mentioned are pretty crucially important to winning games. The fact this team has struggled to find secondary scoring, has 3-4 rookies on defense (and an equal amount of inexperience at forward I might add), and the injuries and suspensions are all very much part of the puzzle when figuring how they got to this current point. Is that everything that factors in? No, I agree with many here that Haks seems to be in over his head. Whether that's due to an inflexible system, an inability to read emotions, crappy assistants, I really don't know. I'm inclined to believe it's probably some combination of things. That said, the players are right when they note that Haks isn't the one on the ice and playing. A good portion of the blame rests on the players' shoulders and their inability to execute. Will that get better as the rookies gain experience at the NHL level? Yeah, of course it will. Patrick, Sanheim, TK, Weal, Hagg, Martel, hell even Laughton, Provo, and Ghost -- all of those guys are still growing and developing as NHL players. That's a lot of names and a rather substantial proportion of our active roster. That said, I happen to think an inexperienced line up with a combination of the names mentioned above is still better than one that includes Weise and Lehtera. How those two are getting ice time over the rookies is beyond me. Seems like another Hak-brained move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, icehole said: The purpose of the sport is to get the puck in the net. And they've been scoring more than their opponents after 40 minutes many of these games. That's what I'm talking about. I'm saying, yes, they're green. yes the rookies make dumb calls and blow coverages that lead to goals, yes secondary scoring has fallen off a cliff (well it had, it's kinda come back the last few games). I'm saying, with all that, they've been the better team on the score sheet after 2 periods in many of these games. As far as the "advanced stats" go, I haven't checked lately, but I think they're actually doing somewhat worse than the were last year with the possible exception that the first and 4th lines were both doing significantly better with those stats than last year. Not sure where they are in the past few weeks because I've been too disgusted with the outcomes to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darthbal Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 I have read that manny have requested Sutter as a coach, and many others have said he would not be the right fit; but what about the other Sutter?? His brother Brent? He is good with young guys, and has emotion behind the bench, and has been succesfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 42 minutes ago, murraycraven said: I think you are overstating a proper rebuild. This is "retooling" while trying to remain competitive and that is exactly what Hextalls claims. They were never a playoff team this year so I can except the young kids struggling. As a fan I expect this team to be up and down but I dont see any progress in terms of actual play. In fact, it has gone backwards as of late. To build a house you need a sturdy foundation and right now the foundation looks like it is about to collapse for this team. Prospects are great but we could be the Oilers in comparison. They are re-building. The problem with the definition of re-building is that we have seen so many teams outright tank the last decade (Toronto, Edmonton) that tanking has basically become the new definition of re-building. Re-tooling is just a fancy way of saying re-building without straight up tanking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 32 minutes ago, elmatus said: I happen to think an inexperienced line up with a combination of the names mentioned above is still better than one that includes Weise and Lehtera. How those two are getting ice time over the rookies is beyond me. this is the part that baffles me as well...there's no more "upside potential" to Dale Weise. The problem with the skill guys is size, they're little. Danick Martel ? he has some smarts, good hands and is quick. #75 from the Pens craps bigger than him. Somewhere there needs to be some balance so guys aren't getting pushed around in the scoring areas. I don't know, the lineups Hakstol ices are puzzling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: there's no more "upside potential" to Dale Weise. oh stop mojo! according the Hak he is "heavy"... LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 20 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: They are re-building. The problem with the definition of re-building is that we have seen so many teams outright tank the last decade (Toronto, Edmonton) that tanking has basically become the new definition of re-building. Re-tooling is just a fancy way of saying re-building without straight up tanking. Agree.... but I have always had this issue. If they are rebuilding they already have the core of which 2 players (Jake and G) are signed to very large contracts that will be on the downside of their careers when this team is ready to win in 3-4 years. Say in a few years the projected salary cap is at 77M - we now have 2 players that are most likely not contributing at the rate they are paid. I would argue Jake is overpaid now. But anyway, the Flyers will have 2 players that are nearly 22% of the team's entire cap which is a big concern to me... Say Couts keeps up this pace he is due for a nice raise in 2022-23. Provorov will get paid, we have no idea what Simmonds is going to do... those 2 contracts along with some other nefarious signings, to which Hextall has been inclined to do, could be a huge deal. So are we going to say this team will be ready to contend in 2023 when G is off the books or even 2024 when Jake is off the books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 Flyers loan Danick Martel to the Lehigh Valley Phantoms Nice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Flyers loan Danick Martel to the Lehigh Valley Phantoms Nice LOL..... Keeps on getting better. Guess Hak didnt think he was "heavy" enough.... maybe with a few days off they just want to get him playing time? maybe??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 1 minute ago, murraycraven said: LOL..... Keeps on getting better. Guess Hak didnt think he was "heavy" enough.... Phantoms play tonight i guess they figured he needs to play no need sitting around just practicing. Maybe they are making home for RNH and his friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Phantoms play tonight i guess they figured he needs to play no need sitting around just practicing. Maybe they are making home for RNH and his friend. I did hear it was at the E4.1111111110000001 level. Must be true! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 1 hour ago, brelic said: Lol I saw that. Oilers looking for a defenseman. So, in the interest of changing the mood around here, would you trade for RNH? What would you be willing to part with? Keep in mind, they are looking for a roster defenseman not named MacDonald. RNH is a #1 overall pick who's topped out in the mid-50s for points, so his value is low I would say. I'd give them Manning. LOL. Seriously, if they want Gudas, they'll have to take Lehtera off our hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 minutes ago, King Knut said: they'll have to take Lehtera off our hands. Why? Hak said he is another "heavy" body that deserves time over actually talented players Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 15 minutes ago, murraycraven said: LOL..... Keeps on getting better. Guess Hak didnt think he was "heavy" enough.... maybe with a few days off they just want to get him playing time? maybe??? 13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: Phantoms play tonight i guess they figured he needs to play no need sitting around just practicing. Maybe they are making home for RNH and his friend. Everything including Hextall's "belief" that everything is fine all suggest to me that something is actually afoot. Trading for a Center wouldn't make much sense though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 14 minutes ago, murraycraven said: I did hear it was at the E4.1111111110000001 level. Must be true! Maybe it's Simmer and Radko for RNH. No toughness left at all on the team... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 5 minutes ago, King Knut said: Trading for a Center wouldn't make much sense though. You trade for a center till you have them playing at every spot on the team. Even making the gatorade and driving the zamboni. Must have all the centers!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: You trade for a center till you have them playing at every spot on the team. Even making the gatorade and driving the zamboni. Must have all the centers!!! I think I know a team that tries to do that! I saw today the Hak and Berube have the same winning percentage. What teams under each had better players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 43 minutes ago, murraycraven said: Agree.... but I have always had this issue. If they are rebuilding they already have the core of which 2 players (Jake and G) are signed to very large contracts that will be on the downside of their careers when this team is ready to win in 3-4 years. Say in a few years the projected salary cap is at 77M - we now have 2 players that are most likely not contributing at the rate they are paid. I would argue Jake is overpaid now. But anyway, the Flyers will have 2 players that are nearly 22% of the team's entire cap which is a big concern to me... Say Couts keeps up this pace he is due for a nice raise in 2022-23. Provorov will get paid, we have no idea what Simmonds is going to do... those 2 contracts along with some other nefarious signings, to which Hextall has been inclined to do, could be a huge deal. So are we going to say this team will be ready to contend in 2023 when G is off the books or even 2024 when Jake is off the books? Hard to really think that far ahead in the NHL. We just have to hope that our GM can make the moves necessary to make sure the money goes to where it's needed when the time comes. Personally, I don't see why we can't move Voracek without needing to retain salary, especially if he's still producing (70+ points). But Hextall will have to make that move this summer and target a team where UFAs avoid who has the cap space. As long as the return is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, RJ8812 said: Hard to really think that far ahead in the NHL. We just have to hope that our GM can make the moves necessary to make sure the money goes to where it's needed when the time comes. Personally, I don't see why we can't move Voracek without needing to retain salary, especially if he's still producing (70+ points). But Hextall will have to make that move this summer and target a team where UFAs avoid who has the cap space. As long as the return is nice. it will be very interesting.... just trying to forecast the master plan which is probably not even possible given work stoppages and everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RJ8812 Posted November 29, 2017 Share Posted November 29, 2017 3 minutes ago, murraycraven said: it will be very interesting.... just trying to forecast the master plan which is probably not even possible given work stoppages and everything else. When's the next lock out due? 2019? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted November 29, 2017 Author Share Posted November 29, 2017 2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Maybe it's Simmer and Radko for RNH. No toughness left at all on the team... Way too much. #1 overall or not, he's just not there. Same age as Coots, similar production up til now... but none of the defensive prowess Coots had going into this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 This is simply not a "good" team. Bad teams outscore their opponents for 40 minutes. Bad teams give up multiple two goal leads. Bad teams take penalties in power plays and on the PK. Bad teams are one line teams that better teams can outclass over 60. Coaching absolutely plays into that. And it is possible that with a better, more experienced coach the team is a lower level bubble playoff team. Which means, at best, they likely wind up with a first round loss and certainly aren't "going deep." Six years since the radical "retool" and three years into Hextall. They simply don't have the goal scoring - which is what you get when you build around two guys who have cracked 25 three times - total - in their careers. And the last time was three seasons ago... Trade Simmonds? Where are the VeeGees going to get their assists from? We are headed for what looks to be - by the end - practically a decade of mediocre hockey. And then, if the defense pans out and the young goalies develop and they add some scoring up front... Wait, how good is this team again? Seems like they have big questions in the bottom 9 - not to mention the top line - developing defense and two average at best goalies. With an out of his depth coach. At least we've got that going for us? The major problem isn't "where the Flyers are" in their rebuild. It's that the rest of the league is ahead of them and many of those teams were on the same "plan" the Flyers are following. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vis Posted November 30, 2017 Share Posted November 30, 2017 1 hour ago, radoran said: The major problem isn't "where the Flyers are" in their rebuild. It's that the rest of the league is ahead of them and many of those teams were on the same "plan" the Flyers are following. Yep and Exhibit A is a few miles up the NJ turnpike in Newark. How are the Devils doing it this time? Is that roster that much better than the Flyers'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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