Patrick and WJC

[King Knut]

23 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

As for putting words in my mouth... reread you comment again b/c it was in response to both me and OR 

 

I was trying to be economical so I could get back to work... that went well

[King Knut]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Just for you....

 

 

...and Hextall apparently.  

[elmatus]

43 minutes ago, King Knut said:

And he doesn't need to be playing against "equal talent" to get better, he needs to be playing against SUPERIOR talent to get better.  

 

I honestly couldn't agree more. This very simple facet is as true for Patrick as for anyone in any sport. Playing superior competition is the single most effective way to become better, and it's not even close. This is across the board a reality for any skill development. Where individuals differ is in the extent to which they develop, not whether they develop at all.

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I honestly couldn't agree more. This very simple facet is as true for Patrick as for anyone in any sport. Playing superior competition is the single most effective way to become better, and it's not even close. This is across the board a reality for any skill development. Where individuals differ is in the extent to which they develop, not whether they develop at all.

 

It's true of most professions.  Enhanced competition at the right increments develops talent far more efficiently.  Competing against weaker competition becomes a clinic in theory very quickly.  "I'm skating faster than everyone in this league, but am I skating NHL fast or AHL fast or just faster than these guys?  I'm digging pucks out of corners in this league, but am I aggressive enough to do it in the NHL?"   You'll never know.  You'll just know you're better than the kids you're out there against.  

 

I honestly fear this might be happening with Veccione and Morin and Lindblom already, but I really am not able to see them enough to assess what they're looking like.  The reports and numbers I'm reading seem to feel like the forwards are coming along nicely after their sluggish starts.  Vrobyov too.  But Morin... injuries aside, not making the team in favor of Manning and Sanheim (especially when Sanheim started literally costing the Flyers games with his bad coverage) really seemed to screw with his head early this year. 

 

Goalies are different in almost every way, so I won't bring up Hart.  

 

 

[ruxpin]

18 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I honestly couldn't agree more. This very simple facet is as true for Patrick as for anyone in any sport. Playing superior competition is the single most effective way to become better, and it's not even close. This is across the board a reality for any skill development. Where individuals differ is in the extent to which they develop, not whether they develop at all.

 

I'm with you.   I do wish he would have had the option to improve skill development, etc. in the AHL for awhile to both improve skill but also get used to much bigger bodies.   That ultimately wouldn't have helped him with the difference in speed, but it may have been too big a jump.

 

On the other hand, I don't think having him learning with reduced ice time and focusing on defense, etc., will kill him.   Unless he keeps putting himself in dumb situations against the boards like he did the other night.  But he could do that in the AHL, too.

 

I know he couldn't go to the AHL.   I just wish that had been an option for a little while.

[elmatus]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

It's true of most professions.  Enhanced competition at the right increments develops talent far more efficiently.  Competing against weaker competition becomes a clinic in theory very quickly.  "I'm skating faster than everyone in this league, but am I skating NHL fast or AHL fast or just faster than these guys?  I'm digging pucks out of corners in this league, but am I aggressive enough to do it in the NHL?"   You'll never know.  You'll just know you're better than the kids you're out there against. 

 

 

I expect most people will agree with this line of reasoning. I think the challenge right now is that Patrick was heralded as a phenomenal player, yet he has not shown any of that in the NHL. I think people were expecting more from a 2nd overall pick who was touted as potentially a 1st overall prior to last season's injuries.

 

I think given his billing, people figured he would come in and be at least somewhat effective right off the bat. He hasn't, so now folks are wondering why. 

 

I personally agree with you though. He should be and is in the NHL. Now let's give him time to learn before throwing him to the wolves. This is where he needs to be to get better imo.

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

No one said it was an exact science.  

It is however a kind of science, and I would love to hear some analytics on what Lindblom, Konecny & Patrick are faltering on that Hischier and Bratt aren't.

 

I know jack about Bratt.  Hischier I know what always touted as the far better skater than Patrick (which is why I always leaned toward him in that debate).  I also know that Lindblom had some skating issues which is why he fell so deep in the draft... however, he didn't have any skating issues last spring in the AHL.  He tore it up.  And Konecny certainly doesn't have any skating issues... though he is undersized and doesn't seem to grasp his role defensively yet.  

 

 

 

 

 

Did Mrs Knut give you your meds this morning?   

[brelic]

1 hour ago, murraycraven said:

 

along with being benched in the 3rd....

 

49 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I am use to it. I was when they played him for his 10th game.

 

You need to get use to him not flourishing with 8 minutes a night.

 

It could set him back a while. Guess we'll see.

 

The thing is, on those nights he was 'benched' or had his minutes cut, he was one of the two or three worst performing forwards on that night. Or put in a more positive way, there were 9 guys who deserved the ice time more than him.

 

The NHL is NOT a development league. There are millions of dollars at stake every single game, in salaries, gate revenues, concessions, merchandise, advertising, you name it.

 

In my very humble opinion as a Flyers fan, Patrick looks like he belongs in a development league right now. But that ship has sailed (not really but the Flyers won't burn a year for 20 games worth), so... 

 

Hakstol is trying to win games, and if that means the best option is to shorten the bench when it matters, so be it.

 

[murraycraven]

6 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

 

The thing is, on those nights he was 'benched' or had his minutes cut, he was one of the two or three worst performing forwards on that night. Or put in a more positive way, there were 9 guys who deserved the ice time more than him.

 

The NHL is NOT a development league. There are millions of dollars at stake every single game, in salaries, gate revenues, concessions, merchandise, advertising, you name it.

 

In my very humble opinion as a Flyers fan, Patrick looks like he belongs in a development league right now. But that ship has sailed (not really but the Flyers won't burn a year for 20 games worth), so... 

 

Hakstol is trying to win games, and if that means the best option is to shorten the bench when it matters, so be it.

 

 

 

So, Dale Weis and Lehtera are better options?  Really?

 

And if the NHL is not a development league for young players -- that flies in the face of the exact reason why Hak was brought in by Hextall.   He brought him in for the young players and development...   sorry, with due respoect I am not buying the league can't be a developmental league in some aspects.   Frankly, that line makes no sense to me...

[OccamsRazor]

2 minutes ago, brelic said:

The thing is, on those nights he was 'benched' or had his minutes cut, he was one of the two or three worst performing forwards on that night. Or put in a more positive way, there were 9 guys who deserved the ice time more than him.

 

 

All the more reason to have sent him back. Kid has room to grow. But hey let's stomp his confidence on a nightly basis right!!

 

He needs adversity to overcome....Hak will provide it!!!!!

 

 

Great move!!!!!

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I think the challenge right now is that Patrick was heralded as a phenomenal player, yet he has not shown any of that in the NHL. I think people were expecting more from a 2nd overall pick who was touted as potentially a 1st overall prior to last season's injuries.

 

I think this is the fallacy though.  I don't think he ever was heralded as a phenomenal player.  I think he was heralded as one of the two best guys available in a relatively weak draft year especially in comparison to the McDavid, Eichel and Matthews seasons that preceded it.  

 

And I think Patrick has shown flashes.  His puck handling is amazing and he has shown that on occasion.  Remember the goal he set Weise up for early on?   Weise!  

 

I think once he gets a clearer idea of what areas to skate to and how to hound down the puck and how hard and fast he has to get there, I think it'll start to come together. 

But make no mistake, no one ever touted this kid as a Matthews, McDavid, Tavares or anything like it.  We may have convinced ourselves of it on some level, but no actual scouts or analysts thought it of either him or Hischier.  

[King Knut]

14 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

All the more reason to have sent him back. Kid has room to grow. But hey let's stomp his confidence on a nightly basis right!!

 

He needs adversity to overcome....Hak will provide it!!!!!

 

 

Great move!!!!!

 

At this point I'm ready to petition Hextall to send Patrick to the WJC and then back to juniors just to shut OccamsRazor up.  

[brelic]

19 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

So, Dale Weis and Lehtera are better options?  Really?

 

And if the NHL is not a development league for young players -- that flies in the face of the exact reason why Hak was brought in by Hextall.   He brought him in for the young players and development...   sorry, with due respoect I am not buying the league can't be a developmental league in some aspects.   Frankly, that line makes no sense to me...

 

No, I don't think Weise and Lehtera are better options... but it's what they've got, I guess. Don't get me wrong, though... there are a handful of games where Patrick has played really well, and he had the ice time he earned. 12-13 minutes.

 

The NHL is league where, yes, players continue to develop to their full potential. But you need to show up with a certain level of readiness. In 20 games, it just doesn't look like Patrick has that level of readiness. He's timid in the corners, poor on faceoffs, doesn't drive play, and makes a lot of ill-advised plays. He has definitely shown flashes of brilliance, and in the long term, he will likely be a top 2 center, maybe #1. Even though Patrick isn't putting up points, he isn't doing enough of the other things that make up for a lack of production ... at this point in time.

 

Compare that to Ghost's rookie season. He was clearly ready for the NHL. Sure, he had (and still has) a lot of things to clean up in his game. Same as Provorov. But they did enough things really well to stick.

 

Honestly, another year in junior would NOT hurt his development. I don't buy the idea that players have nothing left to learn, even if they dominate. Hextall, Hakstol, and the development coaches surely would have given him a training regimen, nutrition plan, aspects of his game to work on, etc. And in a league he can dominate, he would have had the opportunity to do those, make mistakes, but still contribute to his team while learning.

 

He's surely learning a lot right now too - but there may have been better options, such as putting Laughton on the 3rd and Vecchione on the 4th. 

 

Anyway, it's a moot point now because he's here to stay. 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

13 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

At this point I'm ready to petition Hextall to send Patrick to the WJC and then back to juniors just to shut OccamsRazor up.  

 

Why no point in that he can't get any better playing against 19 year old let's continue to crush him. I like your plan! 

 

It will give you a chance to cry about it later!!! 

[murraycraven]

5 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

No, I don't think Weise and Lehtera are better options... but it's what they've got, I guess. Don't get me wrong, though... there are a handful of games where Patrick has played really well, and he had the ice time he earned. 12-13 minutes.

 

The NHL is league where, yes, players continue to develop to their full potential. But you need to show up with a certain level of readiness. In 20 games, it just doesn't look like Patrick has that level of readiness. He's timid in the corners, poor on faceoffs, doesn't drive play, and makes a lot of ill-advised plays. He has definitely shown flashes of brilliance, and in the long term, he will likely be a top 2 center, maybe #1. Even though Patrick isn't putting up points, he isn't doing enough of the other things that make up for a lack of production ... at this point in time.

 

Compare that to Ghost's rookie season. He was clearly ready for the NHL. Sure, he had (and still has) a lot of things to clean up in his game. Same as Provorov. But they did enough things really well to stick.

 

Honestly, another year in junior would NOT hurt his development. I don't buy the idea that players have nothing left to learn, even if they dominate. Hextall, Hakstol, and the development coaches surely would have given him a training regimen, nutrition plan, aspects of his game to work on, etc. And in a league he can dominate, he would have had the opportunity to do those, make mistakes, but still contribute to his team while learning.

 

He's surely learning a lot right now too - but there may have been better options, such as putting Laughton on the 3rd and Vecchione on the 4th. 

 

Anyway, it's a moot point now because he's here to stay. 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree with everything.   I think the Patrick thing will work itself out frankly.   The kid is a baby - like I said earlier he is exactly one year older than my son so I can't imagine getting acclimated to the NHL after being out with an injury for so long.   It is a lot to process for a young man along with the pressure of being the #2 pick.  I have no doubt he will be fine but I also feel terrible that he has to play with the scraps Hextall brought in.   

[King Knut]

39 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Did Mrs Knut give you your meds this morning?   

 

 

The good news is, at least you've got plenty of company... if not good company.  

 

 

[King Knut]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Why no point in that he can't get any better playing against 19 year old let's continue to crush him. I like your plan! 

 

It will give you a chance to cry about it later!!! 

 

DUDE IF YOU'D JUST STOP CRYING ABOUT IT NOW I WOULD BUY YOU A CASE OF WHATEVER IT IS YOU REFUSE TO STOP DRINKING.

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, King Knut said:

 

DUDE IF YOU'D JUST STOP CRYING ABOUT IT NOW I WOULD BUY YOU A CASE OF WHATEVER IT IS YOU REFUSE TO STOP DRINKING.

 

Bro the only one crying here is you. They have already burnt his year. PARTY ON!

 

You have already stated he can't get better in juniors yet he could in the junior tournament that is the dumbest thing i have read i a while....it's against the same age group.

 

PUFF PUFF PASS!!!

[murraycraven]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

The good news is, at least you've got plenty of company... if not good company.  

 

 

 

well played good sir... well played....

 

 

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

You have already stated he can't get better in juniors yet he could in the junior tournament that is the dumbest thing i have read i a while....it's against the same age group.

 

It's a tournament of the best players in the world under 20 on the biggest stage, playing for your country. That's good for anyone's game (confidence etc)

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Bro the only one crying here is you. They have already burnt his year. PARTY ON!

 

You have already stated he can't get better in juniors yet he could in the junior tournament that is the dumbest thing i have read i a while....it's against the same age group.

 

PUFF PUFF PASS!!!

 

 

I'm not the one complaining about the current reality of the situation and who won't stop harping on a fantasy that would involve time travel to become reality.  Patrick is on the Flyers and they are likely not to send him back to Juniors this season and therefore ever again.

 

And as an aside, I don't know that he'll get "better" in the junior tournament, but I think it would be a nice change of pace for him because it's LIMITED.  It ends in a few weeks, not April. 

 

While I don't think he'll become a "better" player for it, I think it would give him a healthy little break that would keep him playing and wouldn't involve another injury and give the Flyers opportunity to play Vecchione and maybe Vrobyov and get some glimpses of them without having to bench Patrick in the process.  It's what they SHOULD have done when he got hurt, but instead we had to put up with three weeks of Lehtera.  

 

The only downside I could see is if they played Lehtera with Konecny and Weise instead and give them MORE than 8 minutes a night.  

 

In the mean time, until Doc Brown shows up with the Delorean, I'm not sure how to help you chill TF out.

 

 

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

well played good sir... well played....

 

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, Podein25 said:

 

It's a tournament of the best players in the world under 20 on the biggest stage, playing for your country. That's good for anyone's game (confidence etc)

 

 

Yeah i know the point it's against kids still.

 

I'm cool with him playing in the tourney but the Flyers are keeping him it seems.

 

Hey i'm advocating him playing against kids his age to help boost his confidence that seems to be lacking from what i have seen of him.

 

I don't see the creativity i saw last year even in the 33 games he played.

 

They need to find a way to get that back for him....they have decided to keep him so it's on them to figure it out.

 

They need to do what is best for his development.

[brelic]

12 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Agree with everything.   I think the Patrick thing will work itself out frankly.   The kid is a baby - like I said earlier he is exactly one year older than my son so I can't imagine getting acclimated to the NHL after being out with an injury for so long.   It is a lot to process for a young man along with the pressure of being the #2 pick.  I have no doubt he will be fine but I also feel terrible that he has to play with the scraps Hextall brought in.   

 

I think that's exactly it. It's a lot for him to handle. Everyone is different.

 

Take away his name, and look at his stat line, his fancy stats, and he's probably a guy you'd scratch in favour of someone who might bring a few more intangibles and confidence to the game, even if the points aren't there.

 

And of course, expectations are high from fans too because he was #2 overall, but ranked #1 forever. But he's just not in the same league as McDavid, Eichel, Matthews, Laine, etc. He's not even in the same league as Hischier at this point in time.

 

There's nothing wrong with that - it's just a question of where he can better find his game and get to the next level. Hextall and co. believe it is in the NHL. I disagree, but I've never chopped someone behind the legs with a goalie stick before

 

So I'll defer to those guys lol.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

I'm not the one complaining about the current reality of the situation and who won't stop harping on a fantasy that would involve time travel to become reality.  Patrick is on the Flyers and they are likely not to send him back to Juniors this season and therefore ever again.

 

And as an aside, I don't know that he'll get "better" in the junior tournament, but I think it would be a nice change of pace for him because it's LIMITED.  It ends in a few weeks, not April. 

 

While I don't think he'll become a "better" player for it, I think it would give him a healthy little break that would keep him playing and wouldn't involve another injury and give the Flyers opportunity to play Vecchione and maybe Vrobyov and get some glimpses of them without having to bench Patrick in the process.  It's what they SHOULD have done when he got hurt, but instead we had to put up with three weeks of Lehtera.  

 

The only downside I could see is if they played Lehtera with Konecny and Weise instead and give them MORE than 8 minutes a night.  

 

In the mean time, until Doc Brown shows up with the Delorean, I'm not sure how to help you chill TF out.

 

 

 

You need to step back from the keyboard man it looks like it's getting to you.

 

I have already said they can't put the genie back in the bottle when they played his 10th game.

 

You are the one who thinks 19 olds can't get better play in juniors.

 

I can't for the life of me understand what juniors is for then. Guess it's a conspiracy!!!!!!