brelic Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, King Knut said: Why would you think that they'd take a step back? Losing Filp, Read, Manning, and potentially one more defenseman (Gudas?), and replacing that with Vecchione, NAK, Morin and/or Myers, I think, would mean more growing pains for the young guys. Not that the 'vets' were anything to write home about, but it's unreasonable to expect all these rookies to just come in, and poof, be competent and mistake-free. Could happen, but unlikely. There's lots of learnin' to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam1986 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 hours ago, elmatus said: I fully expect the Sharks will find a way to keep Kane. He's exactly what they need going forward. They'll do everything they can to keep him. As far as Tavares goes, I would love to see him in an O&B jersey. I just don't think it's possible. He'd want too much term for one thing, and we already have Giroux and Voracek in that boat. It just seems like a recipe for major issues in the future. That said, while adding those two would be a tremendous boost to our offense, I'm not convinced it would make up for our defensive and especially goaltending shortcomings. It would give us a solid third line for the first time in forever, which is obviously a huge benefit, but neither Tavares nor Kane are apt to don goalie gear. It would be great for next season, but it seems highly unlikely to me. Kane is a punk. Contract now play good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jam1986 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Look at Jets have guys we could use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, brelic said: Frost might be awesome, just as easily as he can be a 3rd line center, tops. I know we'd like to believe he will be a top line player, but the odds are firmly against that. The same with Hart, and Allison, and Ratcliffe, and all those 'magic beans.' Why? He's blowing his league up and he's doing it consistently and in pretty special fashion. So barring injury, why are odds firmly against that? Speaking in general about draft picks, I'm with you. But when we drill out down to a specific pick who's doing everything that says otherwise, it's not really an "odds are firmly against." The odds are firmly in favor on this one. The rest? I don't know that the odds are firmly either way. Hart looks god. He's a kid and a goalie and he's still in juniors. Who knows. It looks good so far, but any statement regarding him really does have to include "so far." I know one may say that with Frost, but there's a difference. Especially in terms of odds. Racliffe is definitely a "so far" as well, but he's come a long way in such a relatively short period of time that odds are now good on middle six. Just really commenting on the "odds are firmly against" is all. If all you're doing is checking the urge to allow yourself to be really optimistic...I completely get that. Manage expectations and prevent disappointment from being bridge-jumping worthy. Yeah. I so completely get that. 8 minutes ago, brelic said: Put another way, the odds of all our picks hitting and being special are supremely low See, this is more of the generally speaking about draft picks that I meant. Yeah, I agree. But honestly, we don't have to hit all of them. To put this in a better frame, take a Tums or something and go back and look at our picks from 2008-2010. Seriously take some sort of stomach medicine and steel yourself first. Sbisa, Rinaldo, Bourdon, Lauridsen, Wellwood, McGinn, and Chaput are the only people who saw NHL ice. Some of them because we didn't draft any better and that's what we had to throw up there. Sbisa should be called a victory, but even he ended up with a meh career. You'll never explain to me why Rinaldo has had such longevity. And I have no idea who Chaput is. 17 picks in 3 years and we have 7 names that spent any time in the NHL. One guy I don't know, 3 who played less than 50 games. A goon. And a guy who really should have been so much better (Sbisa). Okay, 2011 we only had 5 picks but got Couturier and Cousins. 2 of 5. One has what you would actually call "worked out." In 2012, 4 of 7 has seen NHL time. Stolarz is one of them. Who knows. I think he's a backup at best and he lost a season to injury. But then you have Laughton, Ghost, and Leier. Like 2011, I think you really arguably have one that you would say "worked out." Jury is still out on Laughton, but if I'm in the jury I vote against him. But he's played a full season and if he improves and can be a dependable bottom six guy, it's not so bad. 2013: Still only 6 picks. Hagg, Morin, Goulbourne. Amorosa maybe. Goulbourne and Amorosa are probably not. Maybe Goulbourne helps fill out a bottom six. But if Morin does make it, that's 2/6. 2014 Still only 6 picks. Sanheim & Lindblom. Maybe Aube-Kubel and Friedman. I don't think Friedman on the Flyers, but maybe. And I think NAK is probably bottom 6. 2/6 again. I'm counting both Sanheim and Lindblom despite the fact one could argue that while they've made it to the NHL they haven't exactly proven anything yet. 2015-2017 We've worked our way through the Holmgren-depleted draft cupboard and actually have more picks. At 16%, I think that probably i 9 picks in 2015 10 picks in 2016 9 picks in 2017 10 picks this year, including 2 first round. 38 picks from 2015-2017. Provorov is a star in the making. Patrick should be included there too. Konecny. Vorobyov, Allison, Laberge, Rubstov, Frost, Ratcliffe, Hart, Sandstrom should probably eventually see NHL ice. Maybe Laczynski, Strome, and Twarynski (Laberge and Allison could probably be in this group). All this to say that from 2011-2014, 41% of the picks made it at least to NHL ice. 4 look like they'll be really good. (4 of 24. 16%). 16% when you only have 6 picks is only 1. When you have 9 or 10? Yeah, you're only up to 2. But we also have seen higher picks. At 16%, that probably justifies your "odds are low." But we've increased the chance of success overall by having a lot more picks and higher ones. We're getting to the place that the team will be good enough that the picks won't be as early. And at some point I agree that we'll need to supplement as a result. But we still have 2 more first rounders coming this year barring trades. Don't jump ship on the process yet. (I hated the "process" term for the Sixers, but it's starting to work). 8 years IS an excruciatingly long time from where I sit, too. It doesn't make it better to explain we spent the first 2 of this still with few picks and long than that digging out from crap. We're almost there now. It's like a 4 hour drive home. The last 45 minutes is just 'GET THERE ALREADY!!!" (Sorry for the ton of long posts today, especially this one. I'm home today and don't have anything better to do!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 15 minutes ago, brelic said: Losing Filp, Read, Manning, and potentially one more defenseman (Gudas?), and replacing that with Vecchione, NAK, Morin and/or Myers, I think, would mean more growing pains for the young guys. Not that the 'vets' were anything to write home about, but it's unreasonable to expect all these rookies to just come in, and poof, be competent and mistake-free. Could happen, but unlikely. There's lots of learnin' to be had. Agreed. The goaltending position is the wild card, but otherwise you might expect the same path next year as this: ups and downs from a young team. Finish in a pack of 3-5 teams vying for playoff entry and positioning and helped out by teams like NYR, Carolina, Montreal, etc. that are still going the wrong way. IF -- this is Philly so the IF -- we get competent goaltending, we may be a little more comfortable and better positioned to win a series or two come playoffs. If not, then it might look a lot like this year. Patrick may show a sophomore thing, but otherwise --and barring injury--we might get more of a complete campaign from him. This really ends up coming down to goaltending for me and whether Hextall is able to replace Filppula and others with competent, cheaper replacements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke2Leach Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 40 minutes ago, King Knut said: Why would you think that they'd take a step back? BRELIC basically answered it for me (thanks!) . This is the new reality for building strong franchises. Draft well, part ways with players who make more than they earn (once contracts are done), trade for help in supporting roles and hope a healthy chunk of your draft picks become NHL players. Also - change your coach when the time is right. There is a good time for kid-friendly coaches and a good time for someone who's expectations are a little higher. Getting from here to a Cup is going to require major patience. We can't bring in high-end FA's, because that won't allow us to re-sign some of the kids who are going to cost a pretty penny in a few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I'm assuming this will be met with a "hell no!" and I'm not really sure how I feel about it, but... If there aren't enough kids ready -- and there seemingly won't be -- would Filppula for 1 year/$3M be horrible? He's 34 so maybe he doesn't do that kind of pay cut or even that kind of short term, but otherwise, what do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 51 minutes ago, brelic said: Losing Filp, Read, Manning, and potentially one more defenseman (Gudas?), and replacing that with Vecchione, NAK, Morin and/or Myers, I think, would mean more growing pains for the young guys. Not that the 'vets' were anything to write home about, but it's unreasonable to expect all these rookies to just come in, and poof, be competent and mistake-free. Could happen, but unlikely. There's lots of learnin' to be had. I feel like they'll replace some of the forwards through free agency. The D men are a different story. Hextall might trade a Hagg or someone if he can sign someone good (Carlson maybe). Read is actually a loss. I think they would have faired better in the standings if he'd played all year instead of Lehtera. Filppula along with Simmonds and Weal and Lehtera were by FAR the worst forwards on the team at 5 on 5. You gotta assume that Simmonds was just hurt and didn't suddenly become god awful. Weal I think it was mostly usage. If Hakstol is still the coach and insists on using Weal and Konecny the way he did at the beginning of the year and at the end of the year and insists on playing Weise and Lehtera over Vecchione and Allison, then yeah... I think you're probably right. They'll suck. But even so a full year of 2nd half Patrick and Lindblom playing with Voracek? I don't know if it's safe to expect the first line to be as good as they were, but I do expect the 2nd line to be much better (over the course of the season). I actually have a lot more faith in the likes of Vecchione and Morin than most people. I think the occasionaly catastrophic mistakes they may make will be grossly outweighed by the consistent boost in overall play they contribute. I'd sooner have Morin occasionally making mistakes and consistently being a net positive play driver than having Manning consistently making terrible mistakes, being a negative play driver, but occasionally scoring a goal. I think the former will be better for the overall record. Manning was a -5 with zero points and 14 PIMs in the playoffs while Sanheim was a -1 with a goal and 2 PIM. Which one did Hakstol bench? LIndblom was "invisible" in the playoffs... but no goals were scored while he was on the ice either... yet he was benched. What I can't complain about is that somehow MacDonald had a great series and god help me Jori Lehtera somehow had a good series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 39 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said: BRELIC basically answered it for me (thanks!) . This is the new reality for building strong franchises. Draft well, part ways with players who make more than they earn (once contracts are done), trade for help in supporting roles and hope a healthy chunk of your draft picks become NHL players. Also - change your coach when the time is right. There is a good time for kid-friendly coaches and a good time for someone who's expectations are a little higher. Getting from here to a Cup is going to require major patience. We can't bring in high-end FA's, because that won't allow us to re-sign some of the kids who are going to cost a pretty penny in a few years. I think the time is right to change the coach. Whatever coach is telling the D men what to do anyway. I assume it's Gord, but if Hakstol is telling Gordo to shut up and make them do this.... then fire Hakstol. The defense is being very very poorly coached. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philly29 Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I am not one to type a lengthy well thought out post but on the matter of the three big FA's "Carlson, Tavares, & Karlsson. I would pick Carlson, he would provide great insight for the younglings on defense. Tavares to me would be a waste and possibly hamper o the younger centers growth. We have Coots, Patrick, Fili and more coming up from the minors. Karlsson no way would I go anywhere near him, granted he is one of the best if not the best out there but he isn't what this team needs right now, actually the opposite. Carlson would be the way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke2Leach Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 30 minutes ago, ruxpin said: I'm assuming this will be met with a "hell no!" and I'm not really sure how I feel about it, but... If there aren't enough kids ready -- and there seemingly won't be -- would Filppula for 1 year/$3M be horrible? He's 34 so maybe he doesn't do that kind of pay cut or even that kind of short term, but otherwise, what do you think? Not when guys like Eric Fehr (32 yrs old) can be had for 1-2 million/yr. 32 - 38 year old players are the new bargain bin. I wouldn't pay anyone who couldn't adequately fill in for second line duty (in case of injury) any more than 2 per year. We're in Brodziak/Plekanec territory here. I'd rather let a kid play in that spot. The Jets were notorious for having 2 fourth lines before they got good. I see the same thing in Philly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clarke2Leach Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, King Knut said: I think the time is right to change the coach. Whatever coach is telling the D men what to do anyway. I assume it's Gord, but if Hakstol is telling Gordo to shut up and make them do this.... then fire Hakstol. The defense is being very very poorly coached. I don't think firing the coach before you give him the horses to run with is wise - IF he has any time left on his contract. On the other hand, if the coach or assistant is doing things detrimental to the growth of the players, then by all means sh it -can him. With coaches - timing is everything - if a gooder becomes available, be ready to pounce. The Flyers are in a good place to pounce right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Philly29 said: I am not one to type a lengthy well thought out post Lol. I thought this might be about me until you said "well thought out." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 18 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said: I don't think firing the coach before you give him the horses to run with is wise - IF he has any time left on his contract. On the other hand, if the coach or assistant is doing things detrimental to the growth of the players, then by all means sh it -can him. With coaches - timing is everything - if a gooder becomes available, be ready to pounce. The Flyers are in a good place to pounce right now. Well he had some of those horses to run with but he put them in the booth and played Manning and Lehtera most of the season instead. Also, if he's coaching the players into the defensive coverage they're playing, that needs to change. They are consistently making the incorrect and atypical choices and if it's some new scheme, it isn't working. You may be running Secretariat, but if you aim him the wrong way, he's going to lose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 27 minutes ago, Clarke2Leach said: The Jets were notorious for having 2 fourth lines before they got good. I see the same thing in Philly. I just don't see that being the case in Philly this year. Filppula Simmonds Weal should not have been a 4th line. In the end, they were essentially a 5th line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkscrewy Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 decent article worth reading by Jay Greenberg http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jay-Greenberg/The-Disappointment-Hasnt-Changed-But-Neither-Shou8230/251/92511 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 43 minutes ago, King Knut said: Hextall might trade a Hagg or someone if he can sign someone good (Carlson maybe). How about this: Voracek and Hagg for Doughty??? Just kicking the can down the road... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 39 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: How about this: Voracek and Hagg for Doughty??? Just kicking the can down the road... If they sign Tavares, you can trade Voracek. In the mean time he was 4th in the league in assists. He stays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, King Knut said: If they sign Tavares, you can trade Voracek. In the mean time he was 4th in the league in assists. He stays. Yeah but that was the regular season so are we keeping track of how many rushes and cycle he has killed this past year too or just the good stats??? And he did pretty much nada in the playoffs....where it really counts... ...your're right how can he help the Kings they don't need anymore disappearing acts. He was 2nd on the team during the regular season in giveaways....and -32 differential....yikes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 Add to the fact of all the crap 2 PP goals in 6 games is down right terrible...so the addition of Knobby to handle the PP hasn't shown any return on investment either. 9.5% is embarrassing. Combined with middle of the pack PK ability (8th at 80%). So that too needs to be much better. Only the Knights and Kings were worse. But those two teams had tow impressive goaltending clinics going on too. And on a side note does anyone ever think Mcdud will learn how to properly defend a two on one??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pucked in the head Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 I say dangle vorachoke and see what you can get for him as far as a solid proven D man and if you have to... Include some dead weights we have plenty but seriously who is going to want the guys we don't ???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pucked in the head Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 As far as mcdud learning to properly defend a two on one .... Probably not he hasn't learned so far and he's no spring chicken... Can't teach an old dog new tricks..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 36 minutes ago, Pucked in the head said: I say dangle vorachoke and see what you can get for him as far as a solid proven D man and if you have to... Include some dead weights we have plenty but seriously who is going to want the guys we don't ???? I would move Jake for a better option in net even till Hart is ready which I think he could be arriving around the end of 20-21 maybe. So a goalie signed for the next 3 years is good. Elliott could be the new guys backup and then Elliott will be out the door at the end of next year for maybe another stop gap backup maybe. I just think goaltending was a HUGE let down this whole year and it needs to be addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: Yeah but that was the regular season so are we keeping track of how many rushes and cycle he has killed this past year too or just the good stats??? And he did pretty much nada in the playoffs....where it really counts... ...your're right how can he help the Kings they don't need anymore disappearing acts. He was 2nd on the team during the regular season in giveaways....and -32 differential....yikes! They don’t come close to the playoffs without Jake. That’s more important. I understand The jake hate but it’s way easier to note when something goes wrong than when it goes right. You see him kill a cycle or a rush so much because he constantly has the puck. It’s more than other guys because he just has the puck more. This is is why teams get rid of players like Subban. It’s why benching Sanheim or Morin for a big mistake doesn’t helpling term. He does way way more more good than harm. Which isn’t to say KEEP him, but that You need to replace him if you trade him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted April 23, 2018 Share Posted April 23, 2018 28 minutes ago, King Knut said: They don’t come close to the playoffs without Jake. That’s more important. Yeah heard that about Schenn too. Not buying it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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