It's all about the vets

[brelic]

Well, through 9 games, it's pretty clear that what is dogging us is the performance of our veteran leaders. The kids and players lower in the lineup are doing much better.

 

Of course, in one sense, we are comparing apples to oranges because Couturier's line and Provorov's pairing are generally out against the opposition's top lines, but that's exactly the point. They are not getting it done at their level. While the rest of the lineup faces weaker opponents, they are holding their own and then some - there are a few who are outright dominating. 

 

Look at the attached data which is for 5v5 -

GF% is the ratio between goals for vs goals against when that player is on the ice - 50% means you score as much as you allow, < 50% means you allow more than you score, and > 50% means you score more than you allow.

 

SCF% is the ratio between scoring chances for and scoring chances against - same interpretation as GF%

 

HDCF% is the ratio between high danger scoring chances for and against - same interpretation as GF%

 

HDGF% is the ratio between high danger goals for and against - same interpretation as GF%

 

 

 

Simmonds is the worst of the bunch. Period. He is a serious liability at 5v5 and we already knew that. Vorobyev was also bad, but only has a 2 game sample, so let's ignore that. Same for JVR and Knight. 

 

It's clear from that that our top line - G/Coots/Voracek - is simply getting dominated at even strength. What's worse is that they're not compensating for that on the PP.

 

On defense, Provorov and Ghost have been schooled, as have MacDonald and Hagg. At the very least, Hagg has made up for it by providing decent offense (HDGF%).

 

By contrast, if you look at the guys in green - the bottom of the lineup - they fare much much better. The 4th line 'whipping' boys are actually the best of the bunch. Lehtera and Weise, while not providing a lot of offense, are definitely not a liability, and in fact are on the positive side of the ledger.

 

Sanheim and Gudas have excelled, so have TK, Lindblom, and Weal. 

 

Last season, Couturier (HDGF% of 64%), Giroux (63%) and Voracek (58%) were dominant. TK (57%) has actually been better this year (100%).

 

So the bottom line is that if our top line and top pairing can sort out their games, we will more than likely be just fine. 

 

 

[mojo1917]

these stats are jarring...Meltzer is making a case for Couturier not being fully healthy. He doesn't look great this year. Certainly he's not playing as well as he played last year.

There is something amiss on that top line, I don't know why Koneckny was demoted...

I don't know, I expected more, the top line isn't looking like a top line to me. They never seem to have the puck the way they did last year. 

 

 

I know the injuries are starting to pile up, JvR played 3 games and is out until December...Raffl out until almost the new year. 

when i say out, I mean until they can play to their capabilities, they'll try to come back and be not good for a week or so...

 

Hopefully the team can weather the storm and not be out of contention before they can ice the team they envisioned. 

[brelic]

19 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

There is something amiss on that top line, I don't know why Koneckny was demoted...

 

He hasn't been demoted - in a way, he's been promoted. He's getting the 4th most ES minutes on the team behind Coots, G, and Voracek. He's 6th if you include special teams (Simmonds is ahead because of PP1 and Laughton is ahead because of PK1).

 

So he's still getting the minutes. The difference this year is that he's actually driving play on whichever line he's on. He no longer *needs* G and Coots. I'm not saying a top line with TK wouldn't be great - we know it was great last year. But maybe part of the reasoning is that he can get other lines going.

 

 

 

So you can see that he's a play driver, and has not been a liability.

 

There's also the argument that he's playing against lesser competition - which to me is fine because it gives him a chance to work on his game while having success. Considering how poorly G, Coots, Provorov and Ghost are playing, they might drag *down* TK's play right now.

 

The same can be said of Sanheim. Everyone wants him to play more, I even saw some people say he should play as a #1 because that's what he looks like right now. There's definitely an argument to be made for that, but maybe, just maybe, he's playing that well because Prov/Ghost are getting the hard minutes and getting eaten alive, while Sanheim has the benefit of refining his game against lesser competition, gaining confidence, and seeing multiple successful games strung together. Let him develop that for a bit. There's no rush. He's 21. 

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

Of course, in one sense, we are comparing apples to oranges because Couturier's line and Provorov's pairing are generally out against the opposition's top lines, but that's exactly the point. They are not getting it done at their level. While the rest of the lineup faces weaker opponents, they are holding their own and then some - there are a few who are outright dominating. 

 

 

Great points.

 

I said some of this in another response i posted to you just now before reading this.

 

But G, Coots and Jake (or TK) have to play better even if it's up against the other team's top line....steel sharpens steel.

 

And Coots here...bro talk is cheap...let's see it stop talking about it be about it!!!

 

“At some point we’re gonna have to turn the switch on for good and get on a roll here because it’s a tight league,” alternate captain Sean Couturier added. “If you slip out of the standings early in the season it makes it tough to catch up and make the playoffs and even if you do it makes it that much harder at the end. We have to figure it out pretty quick.”

 

And it ain't happening.

 

They have scored the 1st goal in only one game this. Sad. Getting lit the f**k up at home.

 

At the end of your day your best players are expected to be your best players and they are getting paid like it the team just isn't seeing the results.

 

I was scared this was going to happen after G, Jake and Coots had such a great year last year.

 

Not sure what can fix this except them looking within.

 

Interesting comments from Ron and reading between the lines on Hak it seems:

 

“I’m a pretty patient guy,” said general manager Ron Hextall, in his fifth year at the helm, “but things need to start going better here.

“You look at our team on paper and we’ve got a pretty good team, but paper doesn’t mean a whole lot. We need to play better.”

 

Goalie Ron is gone. General Manager Ron is mellow and he rolled his eyes so hard at the notion of putting a scare into his team that he nearly gave himself an upper-body injury.

 

“That stuff doesn’t work. That doesn’t work. It’s a new day,” he said. “I hope the players are frustrated because if they’re not, we’ve got a problem. We’ve got a problem if they don’t care, and they do care so we know that. They are frustrated. We’re frustrated. We need to handle it the right way and channel it the right way and get back to playing the way we’re capable of playing. You look at our team on paper and we’ve got a pretty good team, but paper doesn’t mean a whole lot. We need to play better.”

 

“Well we need some impact performances from our whole group,” Hextall said. “If not, we’ll see what’s out there. You’re trying to make your team better every day and when we’re playing like this, it’s concerning. We need to show up on a more regular basis from minute one to minute 60.”

[OccamsRazor]

I am going to try this first....it's time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Giroux - Couturier - Konecny

Lindblom - Patrick - Voracek

Laughton - Weal - Simmonds

Lehtera - Vorobyev - Aube-Kubel

[OccamsRazor]

 

 

 

#somebodystepup

 

I found this interesting...

 

[OccamsRazor]

 

[vis]

 

4 hours ago, brelic said:

So the bottom line is that if our top line and top pairing can sort out their games, we will more than likely be just fine. 

..and if they can get NHL goaltending and sort out the PK.

 

The top two lines, particularly the first, has been playing risky hockey and not paying attention on the defensive side.  That's a recipe for getting dominated 5v5.  Not sure we needed fancy stats to tell us that, but at least the numbers are in alignment with the eye test.

 

I really have no problems with the fourth line, other than that I wish they brought some actual energy and "determined" play.  Still, they haven't hurt the team.

 

I don't know what's going on with Provorov.  Seems way out of character for him.

[OccamsRazor]

4 hours ago, vis said:

if they can get NHL goaltending

 

 

From your post to God's eyes.

 

Elliott is 12th in shots against.

 

50th is save percentage at 882%

 

49th in goals against at 3.59.

 

3rd in goals allowed 24 in 7 games.

 

This is not to absolve the team in front of him in no means.

 

But however at what point can the team in front of him have confidence that he is going to help as much as he can erase their mistakes???

 

Like this...

 

 

...like this sure it was a break away....hard to make but it is a chance to erase G trying to make something happen...but it is how Elliott plays this....he just slides one way has his hand out on top of his pads but his hand never even moves just to show you how eroded his reflexes are...dude in my mind is done and as soon as they can at least relegate him to a backup role at the most, they will continue to lose.

 

He will continue to give up his easy two back breaking goals per game....most importantly the 1st one in a game.

 

Just along way to say get well Neuvy....it was nice knowing you Pickard!!!!!!

 

And traffic happens he does very little to fight through it to see...

 

 

...not the best example but he knows he is slow (as well as the other team knows) so he goes down so early...and gives up the easy top shelf over his shoulder.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

No one has to agree with and that is fine...if you don't then your expectations of what a starting goalie in the NHL in 2018 is a big difference that what i expect.

 

And before i'm done....i will say this is just what i thought they would get from him.

 

So you reap what you sow.

[OccamsRazor]

Weak sauce...but i found it funny...

 

 

 

[OH1FlyersFan]

On 10/23/2018 at 2:05 PM, mojo1917 said:

they'll try to come back and be not good for a week or so...

And then end up re-injuring themselves, doing more harm than good.

[flyer4ever]

Philly has been the goalie graveyard since 1975 when Bernie injured his eye. Why should now be any different. Carter Hart should run like hell in the other direction.

[brelic]

How about these trade ideas?

 

Trade Voracek to Columbus for Panarin, straight up. For Columbus, they get a guy under contract for much shorter (4 more years after this season instead of the 8 for Panarin) and a pretty damn good player at that. 

 

Trade Simmonds and Myers to Toronto for Nylander. If they want an NHL defenseman, I'm not sure... Sanheim would be what they want, but I wouldn't do that for Nylander. 

 

You end up with

 

G/Coots/Panarin

JVR/Patrick/TK

Lindblom/Nylander/Weal

Raffl/Vorobyev/Nak-Twarynski-Weise-Lehtera-Whatever

 

 

[King Knut]

On 10/23/2018 at 1:17 PM, brelic said:

Well, through 9 games, it's pretty clear that what is dogging us is the performance of our veteran leaders. The kids and players lower in the lineup are doing much better.

 

Of course, in one sense, we are comparing apples to oranges because Couturier's line and Provorov's pairing are generally out against the opposition's top lines, but that's exactly the point. They are not getting it done at their level. While the rest of the lineup faces weaker opponents, they are holding their own and then some - there are a few who are outright dominating. 

 

Look at the attached data which is for 5v5 -

GF% is the ratio between goals for vs goals against when that player is on the ice - 50% means you score as much as you allow, < 50% means you allow more than you score, and > 50% means you score more than you allow.

 

SCF% is the ratio between scoring chances for and scoring chances against - same interpretation as GF%

 

HDCF% is the ratio between high danger scoring chances for and against - same interpretation as GF%

 

HDGF% is the ratio between high danger goals for and against - same interpretation as GF%

 

 

 

Simmonds is the worst of the bunch. Period. He is a serious liability at 5v5 and we already knew that. Vorobyev was also bad, but only has a 2 game sample, so let's ignore that. Same for JVR and Knight. 

 

It's clear from that that our top line - G/Coots/Voracek - is simply getting dominated at even strength. What's worse is that they're not compensating for that on the PP.

 

On defense, Provorov and Ghost have been schooled, as have MacDonald and Hagg. At the very least, Hagg has made up for it by providing decent offense (HDGF%).

 

By contrast, if you look at the guys in green - the bottom of the lineup - they fare much much better. The 4th line 'whipping' boys are actually the best of the bunch. Lehtera and Weise, while not providing a lot of offense, are definitely not a liability, and in fact are on the positive side of the ledger.

 

Sanheim and Gudas have excelled, so have TK, Lindblom, and Weal. 

 

Last season, Couturier (HDGF% of 64%), Giroux (63%) and Voracek (58%) were dominant. TK (57%) has actually been better this year (100%).

 

So the bottom line is that if our top line and top pairing can sort out their games, we will more than likely be just fine. 

 

 

 

There's something seriously amiss with the system and the coaching.  The Defense is just plain out of position.  

Additionally, Coots, G and Voraceck have all been logging the kind of minutes first pairing defensemen get... in the playoffs.  

 

To boot, the best Defensive pairing has been Sanheim / Gudas have been getting the fewest minutes per game (at least until Folin came back into the fold).  

 

To my eyes, Hakstol has Giroux, Coots, Simmer, Jake, and TK out there to try to score goals and win games and the bottom 6 out there to try to not lose them.  The problem is, the defensive system is so messed up and confused that the minute the forwards shift to trying to score, everything falls apart if they don't.  

 

All the above stats tell me is that our bottom ten are playing better than the other guys' bottom tens and our top tens are getting beat.

 

I agree that Simmonds in particular is having a rough start.  For whatever reason, he's getting more minutes than guys like Laughton and Weal and Konecny who are all doing much better at even strength.  

 

With Raffl out now, I'm concerned that these numbers for the 4th line are going to plummet.

 

JVR can't come back fast enough, but the long and short of it from my eyes is that until something is done within the coaching staff to actually lay out and implement a system that accounts for defensive coverage and positioning in their own zone, absolutely nothing is going to change.

 

I don't believe this is a talent issue any more at this point.  I don't believe this because I know Gudas and Hagg aren't better players than Provo and Ghost... but right now it's ending up that way.

 

I believe this is an incredibly poorly coached team from both a systems, training and preparation stand point and I'm about out of patience for it.  THe Hakstol experiment was worthwhile.  I like some of what he tried to implement, but I fear that the NHL game is just too highly talented and fast for his devil may care attitude on defense to ever be appropriate.  

 

Even if he had the 6 fasted Defensemen in the NHL, I don't think it would make a difference as he simply has them too far out of position to be able to make the plays they need to.  

 

And I don't think it's a goalie thing either.  No one's been good, and no one we've seen so far is a savior goalie, but s savior goalie would only serve to mask the problems with this defense right now.  

 

What we're seeing is a systems and positioning problem that yields a LOT OF VERY high percentage chances.  That is why the save % is so low.  Not because the goalies are that bad (they're not that good, but they're certainly not that bad) but because so many of the shots the Flyers give up are a really good shooter alone, unchecked in a high percentage area, usually with the goalie trying to move laterally or being utterly screened by an unchecked forward's a$$ right in his grill.  

 

Barber was a terrible coach for the transition game but his teams could defend in their own end.  Berube and Hakstol have been terrible coaches in their own end but at least Hak has a decent transition game plan and in the attack zone (G, Jake and Ghost's puck moving skills don't hurt that).

 

Stevens and Lavvy kinda seemed to have a decent implementation at all three aspects of the game.  

 

Hak does not appear to be a dumb guy (I wasn't so sure about Berube and Barber).  Why he hasn't done anything to address this basic problem in two seasons is confusing to me.  He did two years ago when he basically told them to stop trying to score and G and Jake's points dried up and they only ever scored on the PP with Simmer and Schenn. But that was a talent issue.  They didn't have any.  Now they do.  Ghost, Provorov, Gudas Hagg and Sanheim are talented enough  to get their buts into position better than Schultz, Streit and Manning (not to mention the still very green Ghost and Provo of two years ago).  Yet they are not doing it.  

 

This is a coaching issue.  Whether it's failing to see the problem or failure to correct it, I cannot tell, but their flaws are being greatly exploited by any remotely offensively talented teams right now and it doens't show any signs of changing.  

 

 

[brelic]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

To boot, the best Defensive pairing has been Sanheim / Gudas have been getting the fewest minutes per game (at least until Folin came back into the fold).

 

Yes, they are, but it's not an egregious difference at 5v5. Both are basically a minute behind MacDonald and Hagg, and about two minutes behind Ghost. Provorov is way ahead, which is expected.

 

Now, you could make the argument that they need more special teams time, and that's fair. Hak has finally recognized that Provorov as the sole D on PP2 is not a good idea. Sanheim looks much more comfortable, and since he's been a regular on PP2, they actually look like they could do some damage. Gudas also gets about 4 mins per game on the PK.

 

In any case, I'm ok with it for now because Sanheim and Gudas look great together facing weaker competition, and Sanheim has a chance to improve his game with a stable partner, and find success and confidence. He'll get more and more responsibility as time goes on. I'm not gonna freak out because a 21 year old defenseman is pulling up the rear at TOI, and having success doing it. He's got a decade or more on this blueline.

 

15 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I agree that Simmonds in particular is having a rough start.  For whatever reason, he's getting more minutes than guys like Laughton and Weal and Konecny who are all doing much better at even strength.  

 

 

Again, he is but only because of special teams. TK is 4th on the team at ES behind Coots, G, and Voracek. That makes total sense.

 

Correction - Simmonds is actually 4th and TK 5th now, but only by a few seconds, and I suspect it's because of Simmonds' short-lived stint on the 1st line last game. That's over with now, and TK is up there, so he will pass Simmonds again in ES TOI.

 

17 minutes ago, King Knut said:

What we're seeing is a systems and positioning problem that yields a LOT OF VERY high percentage chances.  That is why the save % is so low.  Not because the goalies are that bad (they're not that good, but they're certainly not that bad) but because so many of the shots the Flyers give up are a really good shooter alone, unchecked in a high percentage area, usually with the goalie trying to move laterally or being utterly screened by an unchecked forward's a$$ right in his grill.  

 

Bingo! This top line bleeds breakaways, 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s, 2 on 0s, lol. It's not good.

 

Since Hak has been coach, the Flyers are 27th in 1st period goals scored, and 26th in 1st period goals against. 

 

From Meltzer, here's our record when we score the first goal and when we don't under HaK - 

 

Quote

the Flyers have given up the first goal 147 times (58-65-24 record) and scored first 108 (68-24-14)

 

So, that's the difference between a .476 and a .708 winning percentage.

 

How are we statistically that bad at 1st periods? Sure, the easy answer is 'coaching' but what the hell does that mean? Like, how are these guys not fired up when hitting the ice at home and dropping that first puck?? I don't get it.

 

The Flyers are currently 2 points out of a playoff spot. Statistically, if they are 4 or more points out of a playoff spot by Nov 1, they have a 12% chance of making the playoffs (as measured since 2005-2006).

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/nhl-team-playoff-hopes-start-die-november/

 

They have 3 games until then to put the odds in their favour.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, brelic said:

 

Yes, they are, but it's not an egregious difference at 5v5. Both are basically a minute behind MacDonald and Hagg, and about two minutes behind Ghost. Provorov is way ahead, which is expected.

 

 

Mac/Folin and whoever they're paired with should be a distant third.  And it's not that Hagg is bad either.  I've liked him this year, and I'm not a full on Mac hater.  He's not good, but everyone and Gritty knows he wasn't healthy.  Folin is just not great (though he had one great game somehow).  They should not at this point be on the 2nd pairing or in the NHL at all.  Mac is not for the time being and will hopefully play better when he gets healthy.   It's not that I think Mac/Folin & Hagg are getting a ton of minutes.  They should be getting tiny tiny amounds of minutes.

 

And I'm a bit through worrying about the development of Sanheim & Hagg.  I'm of the opinion that what those guys need to develop at this point is NHL minutes.  

 

1 hour ago, brelic said:

Correction - Simmonds is actually 4th and TK 5th now, but only by a few seconds, and I suspect it's because of Simmonds' short-lived stint on the 1st line last game. That's over with now, and TK is up there, so he will pass Simmonds again in ES TOI.

 

Simmonds shouldn't be 4th or 5th in even strength minutes.  He should be 7th or 8th.  If he was outplaying people at even strength, my opinion would be different, but at 5v5, he's playing like a 7-9, so he should not be seeing 4-6 type Even Strentgh minutes.

 

1 hour ago, brelic said:

Bingo! This top line bleeds breakaways, 2 on 1s, 3 on 1s, 2 on 0s, lol. It's not good.

 

 

You forgot about wide open unchecked right in front of the goalie.  

 

1 hour ago, brelic said:

How are we statistically that bad at 1st periods? Sure, the easy answer is 'coaching' but what the hell does that mean? Like, how are these guys not fired up when hitting the ice at home and dropping that first puck?? I don't get it.

 

 

What that means IMHO is that Hak coaches a bit like a x's and o's football coach.  He waits to see what the other team is going to bring at him and tries to make adjustments on the fly or in between periods.  I honestly don't think it's a psych up thing or motivational or anything like that.  I don't think they're executing a strong plan when they begin games.  I don't think they're anticipating what they're going to see and I don't think they have a clue as to how to react to what they're seeing until it's already too late.

 

When I say "coaching" and "unprepared" that's what I mean.  It's like they haven't seen any tape.  They haven't heard any scouting.  They aren't anticipating which players are going to do what and even if they are they have no game plan for how to shut it down and turn it around the other direction.  If they're lucky, it's like the third period before someone says something like, "OH WAIT!  MacKinnon and Landeskog are the distributors... okay, let's do something about that."

 

That's pregame coaching to me and it honestly doesn't look like it's happening to me.  

 

The thing with this team as I see them and their talent level and the way they are playing right now is that they're either going to turn things around and start playing right and compete for the division or they're going to miss the playoffs by A LOT.  

They just look that clueless right now.  It's like they're still in preseason mode.  They looked better this time last year, but got worse and didn't win for a month... then they were one of the best teams in hockey until both goalies got hurt... which again, Hakstol issues.

 

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

6 hours ago, brelic said:

Trade Voracek to Columbus for Panarin, straight up. For Columbus, they get a guy under contract for much shorter (4 more years after this season instead of the 8 for Panarin) and a pretty damn good player at that.

 

I would do this is the Bread Man signs a new deal before the trade.

 

6 hours ago, brelic said:

Trade Simmonds and Myers to Toronto for Nylander.

 

I wouldn't do this one for three reasons.

 

One i don't want to trade Simmer but if i did i would want it to be out West.

 

And two I don't want Nylander i think he is to soft to play center for the Flyers....and in Philly he will be ran out of town by the fans once they see him play that way come the playoffs.

 

Hard pass.

 

I don't really want to move Meyers right now before we even know how good he can be and if i did i would want more for him.

 

Am i over valuing him?? Yes and no. I think his ceiling is high....and right hand 6-5  Dmen who skate like him don't grow on trees.

 

They are worth their wight in gold.....AND....i other teams can overvalue their guys why can't we.

 

I would have to be blown away to trade him now at his young age with a year and a half left on his entry level contract.

[OccamsRazor]

7 hours ago, brelic said:

Trade Simmonds and Myers

 

If i'm doing someone thing like this...i would want to move them for a more effective forward like...

 

...Johnny Gaudreau...

 

...i would maybe even be more inclined to do Meyers and Lindblom....for Johnny...

 

Gaudreau/G/Panarin

JVR/Patrick/TK

Weal/Coots/Simmer

Raffl/Vorobyev/NAK

 

Wow....now that is a stacked forward group!!!

 

Can't imagine Giroux flanked by two snipers like that!!!!!

 

[caluso]

20 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

There's something seriously amiss with the system and the coaching.  The Defense is just plain out of position.  

Additionally, Coots, G and Voraceck have all been logging the kind of minutes first pairing defensemen get... in the playoffs.  

 

To boot, the best Defensive pairing has been Sanheim / Gudas have been getting the fewest minutes per game (at least until Folin came back into the fold).  

 

To my eyes, Hakstol has Giroux, Coots, Simmer, Jake, and TK out there to try to score goals and win games and the bottom 6 out there to try to not lose them.  The problem is, the defensive system is so messed up and confused that the minute the forwards shift to trying to score, everything falls apart if they don't.  

 

All the above stats tell me is that our bottom ten are playing better than the other guys' bottom tens and our top tens are getting beat.

 

I agree that Simmonds in particular is having a rough start.  For whatever reason, he's getting more minutes than guys like Laughton and Weal and Konecny who are all doing much better at even strength.  

 

With Raffl out now, I'm concerned that these numbers for the 4th line are going to plummet.

 

JVR can't come back fast enough, but the long and short of it from my eyes is that until something is done within the coaching staff to actually lay out and implement a system that accounts for defensive coverage and positioning in their own zone, absolutely nothing is going to change.

 

I don't believe this is a talent issue any more at this point.  I don't believe this because I know Gudas and Hagg aren't better players than Provo and Ghost... but right now it's ending up that way.

 

I believe this is an incredibly poorly coached team from both a systems, training and preparation stand point and I'm about out of patience for it.  THe Hakstol experiment was worthwhile.  I like some of what he tried to implement, but I fear that the NHL game is just too highly talented and fast for his devil may care attitude on defense to ever be appropriate.  

 

Even if he had the 6 fasted Defensemen in the NHL, I don't think it would make a difference as he simply has them too far out of position to be able to make the plays they need to.  

 

And I don't think it's a goalie thing either.  No one's been good, and no one we've seen so far is a savior goalie, but s savior goalie would only serve to mask the problems with this defense right now.  

 

What we're seeing is a systems and positioning problem that yields a LOT OF VERY high percentage chances.  That is why the save % is so low.  Not because the goalies are that bad (they're not that good, but they're certainly not that bad) but because so many of the shots the Flyers give up are a really good shooter alone, unchecked in a high percentage area, usually with the goalie trying to move laterally or being utterly screened by an unchecked forward's a$$ right in his grill.  

 

Barber was a terrible coach for the transition game but his teams could defend in their own end.  Berube and Hakstol have been terrible coaches in their own end but at least Hak has a decent transition game plan and in the attack zone (G, Jake and Ghost's puck moving skills don't hurt that).

 

Stevens and Lavvy kinda seemed to have a decent implementation at all three aspects of the game.  

 

Hak does not appear to be a dumb guy (I wasn't so sure about Berube and Barber).  Why he hasn't done anything to address this basic problem in two seasons is confusing to me.  He did two years ago when he basically told them to stop trying to score and G and Jake's points dried up and they only ever scored on the PP with Simmer and Schenn. But that was a talent issue.  They didn't have any.  Now they do.  Ghost, Provorov, Gudas Hagg and Sanheim are talented enough  to get their buts into position better than Schultz, Streit and Manning (not to mention the still very green Ghost and Provo of two years ago).  Yet they are not doing it.  

 

This is a coaching issue.  Whether it's failing to see the problem or failure to correct it, I cannot tell, but their flaws are being greatly exploited by any remotely offensively talented teams right now and it doens't show any signs of changing.  

 

 

The problem with this team is far greater than the coaching, which I am no means defending. But, come on, how many coaches have to fail here before you take a good, hard, honest look at the players. And, like the title of the post implies: it starts with the vets.

 

Giroux is a terrible leader,  ill-suited to play in a disciplined, structured system for a full 60 minutes. And, the team follows his "lead." If the game devolves into pond hockey, he (and Voracek) will rack up stats. Unfortunately, that is not how the game is played on most nights.

 

I found it very interesting that Hakstol highlighted Giroux's stupid, high-risk play the other game that turned a 2-1 lead into a 2-2 tie, early in the third period. Sadly, Giroux is a high-risk player whose bone-head plays and lack of back-checking often hurt the team. Is that on Hakstol? To some degree, yes, but Giroux is the team's CAPTAIN. He should know better, no?

 

And then there's Voracek, who has become a turnover machine. Even the other day, after the Devil victory, he admitted that he played like crap for the first 39 minutes. Is that on Hakstol?

 

At the end of the day, it certainly is on the coach to get the team ready to play with passion and discipline - something that the Flyers are not doing. But they haven't played that way for years, irrespective of who was behind the bench: Hakstol, Berube, Lavy, Stephens....

 

Its time to start holding the players accountable.

 

By the way, it is clear to everyone who posted here that this team is years away from being a legitimate Cup contender, Carter Hart or not ( who is getting bombarded with high quality shots night after night in the A, by the way). I would seriously consider unloading Giroux and Voracek while committing to a total rebuild. But that's another story, another post, as that turns the spotlight onto Hextall.

[King Knut]

49 minutes ago, caluso said:

The problem with this team is far greater than the coaching, which I am no means defending. But, come on, how many coaches have to fail here before you take a good, hard, honest look at the players. And, like the title of the post implies: it starts with the vets.

 

Giroux is a terrible leader,  ill-suited to play in a disciplined, structured system for a full 60 minutes. And, the team follows his "lead." If the game devolves into pond hockey, he (and Voracek) will rack up stats. Unfortunately, that is not how the game is played on most nights.

 

I found it very interesting that Hakstol highlighted Giroux's stupid, high-risk play the other game that turned a 2-1 lead into a 2-2 tie, early in the third period. Sadly, Giroux is a high-risk player whose bone-head plays and lack of back-checking often hurt the team. Is that on Hakstol? To some degree, yes, but Giroux is the team's CAPTAIN. He should know better, no?

 

And then there's Voracek, who has become a turnover machine. Even the other day, after the Devil victory, he admitted that he played like crap for the first 39 minutes. Is that on Hakstol?

 

At the end of the day, it certainly is on the coach to get the team ready to play with passion and discipline - something that the Flyers are not doing. But they haven't played that way for years, irrespective of who was behind the bench: Hakstol, Berube, Lavy, Stephens....

 

Its time to start holding the players accountable.

 

By the way, it is clear to everyone who posted here that this team is years away from being a legitimate Cup contender, Carter Hart or not ( who is getting bombarded with high quality shots night after night in the A, by the way). I would seriously consider unloading Giroux and Voracek while committing to a total rebuild. But that's another story, another post, as that turns the spotlight onto Hextall.

 

Now manynof these players were here for the last coach? 4? 5?  

 

The thing is, neither Stevens or Lavvy failed As far as I’m concerned. I think they gave the players the necessary guidance and game plan and motivation to perform as well as they could.  Those teams tended to get beat by better teams or by screwing up or by facing the Penguins at a very dicey time for the NHL’s integrity. 

 

I bever once once felt like Stevens or Lavvy was failing the players.  They might make a mistake or a bad call in a shootout or something but systematically and game plan wise, I never felt that way about them. 

 

Chief had had it rough because he was a bad coach with a largely untalented team. 

 

Hak has had it both ways.  Bad team and good team burn I no longer believe his players aren’t good enough to get much better results than this debacle of a season. 

 

Chief failed led because he wasn’t a good coach.  I’m utterly confused by the holes that hakstol is not plugging and his inability to prepare this team.  I do t know how it’s gotten worse over 4 years, but it truly seems to have done just that.  They look lost and confused out there. Far more so than last year or even the futile year before. 

 

Something very strange and bad is up and I refuse to believe otherwise without further information. 

 

I honestly don’t feel that they played this way for Stevens or Laviolette.  They may have gotten beat and they may have had lack luster unmotivated nights, but they didn’t look this futile, those clueless and this pathetic.  They had a game plan and a system and maybe they executed it poorly some nights, but I never doubted it was there.  

 

Seriously, they didn’t look this lost during the ten game losing streak last year.  This isn’t getting edged. This isn’t s few bad breaks or bad puck luck.  This is complete imcompetence.  

 

Mans I don’t worry about Jake or G.  Yes, they are high risk players.  Because High risk players try to make plays. They need the swagger and confidence that goes with being a high risk player.  They’re going to screw up or get caught as a result.  It happens to all the best players.  Sorry.

It happens to Karlsson And Burns and Even the almighty McDavid and Tavares. It’s part of being a skilled playmaker. 

 

Trying to coach that out out of them is the death of a team. 

 

 

 

[brelic]

Honestly, nothing is ever as simple as "it's the coach's fault" or "player X."

 

The exact same team that went winless in ten straight games last year also posted the 5th best record in the NHL over the final 55 games. Only Vegas, Nashville, Winnipeg, and Boston were better.

 

They also had the 5th worst PK over that same span.

 

So, if you blame the coach for one, you have to give him credit for the other.

 

Same with the players. 

 

They are a team of extremes, it seems. They clearly have the players to sustain HIGH levels of play over a long period of time. But they also have some serious flaws that keep rearing their ugly head, and prevent them from carrying that success further.

 

Are the flaws cohort-based, meaning they will resolve naturally as the team grows and matures? 

 

Or are they systemic, and no amount of "maturity" or "growth" will overcome whatever it is that is causing it?

 

 

[vis]

Plenty of blame to go around for the past few years.  The team is not structured well (that's on the GM), lacks on-ice leadership (that's on the core) and either doesn't consistently execute well or the system is ineffective (that's on coaching).  Where do you start when trying to address these issues?

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, caluso said:

But, come on, how many coaches have to fail here before you take a good, hard, honest look at the players. And, like the title of the post implies: it starts with the vets.

 

 

Very good point. 

 

I tend to agree you can coach these guys up game after game and at the end of the day it is up to them to go out there and execute.

 

Bottom line. 

 

So yeah it could be the core hold over vet group that has remained 

 

So going back to the days when it was working and Lavy (whom i thought at the time was a scapegoat and fired 3 games into the season)

 

the core was and still here: Giroux, Jake, Simmer, Coots, Mcdud and Raffl...that is all that is left.

 

So what else can they do?? Dismantle the core group??

 

Well fine might as well start with shipping out Simmer...then let's trade Jake...go from their...bury Mcdud cause ain't no one wanting him....see what that does....worst case...they fall further in the Jack Hughes sweps...

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

Chief had had it rough because he was a bad coach with a largely untalented team.

 

Was it??

 

Giroux put up 86 points.

Jake 62 points.

Simmer 60 points

Hartnell 52 points

Schenn 41 points

Vinny even score 20 goals 37 points

Coots 39 points

Kimmo 35 points

Mason won 33 games 2.50 gaa 916% 4 shutouts which ironically the best season he had since his first Calder winning year with 33 wins.

 

So yeah on the surface not that bad of a season.

 

But then you have the vet group on the back end of Kimmo and Coburn to stabilize the team it seems.

 

It had just went south since then.....fast....and hasn't recovered...

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, vis said:

Where do you start when trying to address these issues?

 

 

I can only think of one thing...

 

 

 

CHEERS!!!