The Flyers have no character, toughness or killer instinct

[RonJeremy]

Throughout  the Flyers history,  we always had character, toughness and heart.  Even when we had less talented teams , they came to play every night , even when we lost , we sent a message for the next game and the other team limped out of our building .

 

In the old days we had guys like Richards, Clarke, Bridgman, Sutter, Tocchet,  Primeau, Poulin, etc who would not allow our team to quit or not show up at all. These guys played hard and led by example. Most of the time we came out from the first drop of the puck and pinned the other team in their end and bombarded their net. Now we come out sleepwalking and are always down early.

 

We can blame Hakstol that the team is a by product of his lack of personality,  but it's more than that. I think Hextall has done a good job drafting, but we have not drafted enough  hardnosed players with leadership qualities. Are there really any flyers that other teams hate and hate to play against? We have talented "nice guys" who dont show up half the time.  We need a Max Domi or Marchand  kinda guy. I really believe we should have traded up and drafted Tkachuk in the past draft instead of drafting two more softies, even though they are talented. Tkachuk is exactly the kind of tough young player this team needs. I know in today's age of soy boys and snowflakes there are not as many tough kids coming up .So when you have a bloodline like Tkachuk or a player of that style, since they are rare these days, it's a good idea to try and land a guy like that. I would sacrifice a little bit in the "skill" dept for some toughness,  leadership and heart.

[OccamsRazor]

Well they do have toughness. They need to show it more....like this...

 

 

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

Wow... a bit heavy handed, eh?

No "toughness, heart?"
That's not what I saw in the game against Tampa Bay.

Philadelphia could have easily rolled over being down 5-1 against one of the better teams in the NHL, but they didn't.
The Lightning provided them with an opening, and Philly took them up on it, made the comeback.... and I would say THAT showed heart to do so.

Not to mention the tough checking by some of your guys and the beatings some of them took in front of the TB net in order to get some key goals en route to tying the game up.

You want to sacrifice skill for toughness...I am not so sure that is the way to go.
Fine. Then you will have a bunch of "tough guys" losing games every night.

I completely agree with you that a true contender needs skill and toughness, definitely heart, and I also get that Hakstol may not instill many of these qualities in his teams...
But the team has enough vets and the young players you guys have, provide enough pride that they don't necessarily need a head coach to instill these things in them.

Flyers overall still need to up the ante in the overall skill department and, regarding the young players, they need to continue to mature on the ice....this much is true. Oh yea, and having a steady, solid goalie who won't require IR time on the regular would help too.

But to say the team has no heart and toughness...I don't buy that.
I gained quite a bit of respect for a number of your boys simply by the way they bulldogged their way to tie the Lightning.
The better team won in the end, but if I am in the locker room of the Bolts, I am saying to myself, "we got away with one".

And despite the frustration to many Flyers fans on how the team is coached, who is on the roster, and how they execute sometimes, I've seen enough games of theirs to know, even from an outsider of the fanbase, that the team simply needs a few more things in the speed and skill department + experience and a goalie....and they could then easily be ranked high up in the East, if not the NHL.

Being soft wouldn't be one of them.
Sure they don't measure up to Flyers' teams past, but that is more the NHL today than the players on the team.

Tkachuk? Sure...he COULD be a good player when he finally matures.
But he also does idiotic things on the ice.
Call that "tough" if you want, but I wouldn't want stupid on my team no matter how tough he is.

I mean, if you want that, maybe petition to sign guys like Roman Polak on defense...maybe pull Steve Downie out of retirement...and get back Zac Rinaldo....oh hey, trade for Milan Lucic or Zach Kassian from Edmonton too....
None of those guys would help this team in any meaningful way though.

The amount of 'stupid' there is mind numbing...literally...but hey, NO ONE will mess physically with the Flyers with those guys because they are just too "tough"...… teams would rather just beat them on the scoreboard.....

[RonJeremy]

We really dont have enough of that, and we especially dont have mental toughness. JVR and Voracek are two big wingers, neither has a mean bone in their body. Haag is the biggest bad ass on the team. Give me a Tocchet who will gauge someone's eye or a Behn Wilson who enjoy spearing you just as much as scoring a goal. We have been a boring, lifeless team for 7 years or so.

[RonJeremy]

We take lazy penalties all the time, if your gonna take one , inflict some pain. An elbow and a slash is 2 mins just like a hook. What I am saying is , guy like Clarke and Richard's are not as naturally talented as say Giroux and Voracek,  but we would be a better team with Clarke and Richard's.  We are soft physically and mentally. We have the same problems year after year. Slow starts , long losing streaks, followed by a win streak, being shutout, etc. Sure we came back against Tampa, but we were asleep to start the game, as usual.

[RonJeremy]

If it comes down to a big tough player with skill or a small ,soft tinkerbell with skill. I will take the tough big guy. Im not talking about Downie, Rinaldo or guys like that. I'm talking about guys who pay the price and come to play. Chris Pronger, Corey Perry , Ryan Getzlaf, Pk Subban. The Flyers need a few young guys of that style player.  Not a Voracek or Jeff Carter. Other than Simmonds we have no warriors. I'm fed up with this team.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

4 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

We take lazy penalties all the time, if your gonna take one , inflict some pain. An elbow and a slash is 2 mins just like a hook. What I am saying is , guy like Clarke and Richard's are not as naturally talented as say Giroux and Voracek,  but we would be a better team with Clarke and Richard's.  We are soft physically and mentally. We have the same problems year after year. Slow starts , long losing streaks, followed by a win streak, being shutout, etc. Sure we came back against Tampa, but we were asleep to start the game, as usual.

 

Ahh, so you want what Radko Gudas USED to do?
Then, errrmmmm….he gets suspended by the league because the NHL simply does not want 'eye gouging, spearing, or groin removing' anymore.
Hell, some nights, I wonder if the league even wants good ol fashioned body checking!

Going back to what you are asking for, even if Hakstol were some maniacal deviant who demanded all his players leave the other team legless, there soon wouldn't be anyone left on the bench for him to ice a proper team......they'd all be in the penalty box, on suspensions, paying fines, or in jail.....

Look, I know what you mean...EVERY team needs some tough defense, no nonsense grit on the forward lines and a mental toughness to back that all up.
But I think you still sell your team short in that regard. Sometimes I get the feeling many of your Flyer players (especially Radko, but not limited to just him) "hold back" because they are trying to not hurt the team on the ice and by taking a long leave of absence due to certain actions.

And yea, I even see the point of big bodied players who don't seem to play to their size.
Those are things the GM and ownership will need to address in the coming seasons.
But overall, looking past the obvious deficiencies of the team which I outlined already, and by many of your own fanbase in various threads, I think the team is just fine in the hear, soul, and toughness department.....that is to say, I think they are hockey tough...if not necessarily CRIMINALLY tough as you seemed to imply earlier on...

I like my teams to be tough too..... but I would also prefer they not be felons.
I still wanna watch hockey games..... not Mutant League sports.  

[RonJeremy]

19 games without a fight, dead crowds,  boring hockey. I'm not saying to goon it up, just step it up a little. Gudas isn't taking dumb penalties any more but he isn't even rattling someone's teeth with a good hard hit. I just find our games lacking emotion and many are boring.

[OH1FlyersFan]

NHL doesn't allow toughness anymore, unfortunately. Not the old toughness the Flyers used to have anyway. This team has had a target on its back for the last 5 or 6 seasons. The "new" NHL has neutered this team and when that happened, they lost their heart and soul. Management never adapted, never figured it out. And it's been a dang shame. Miss the old days....but then I'm old!! 

 

[OccamsRazor]

This team has no identity....they have to find that before they get their sh it togehter...

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said:

NHL doesn't allow toughness anymore, unfortunately.

 

Yes. It is a league with speed...but they are allowed to be tough....they just have to decide to be...

[OH1FlyersFan]

I'm not sure we have either at this point.

[mojo1917]

I've been telling myself "stay away from this conversation" but, it's slow at work and I think this "lack of toughness" take us utter ********.

 

@TropicalFruitGirl26 is right on point by saying a mentally weak team rolls up the carpets and heads for Buffalo down 5-1 with less than 10 to play.

This team kept skating, kept going to the net and was finally rewarded.

That's toughness, that game was over, yet somehow this group managed a point when the parking lot was filling up after the 5th goal.

This same group of players managed to keep playing and grinding even though they didn't win 10 straight games last year, somehow that bunch of gutless sissies managed to accrue 98 points and a playoff berth.

Mentally weak teams fold the tents and don't make the playoffs after that.

 

I don't give a **** about fighting anymore, the league has made it so that aspect of the game isn't accessible. The self policing and pressure release from home and home games isn't tolerated. The staged fights suck, the game suffers IMO because of this, however this is the reality we live in. Longing for a game and style that is no longer feasible is a fools errand.

 

Losing on the scoreboard but beating someone's ass still means losing on the scoreboard, they don't give cups to the guys that win the fights until they're in their 60's and at the home.

This team is repeatedly betrayed by its goaltending and penalty kill. Fighting and "toughness" do not fix those issues. 

 

 

 

[Jam1986]

Yes need kick in the butt

[Jam1986]

21 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I've been telling myself "stay away from this conversation" but, it's slow at work and I think this "lack of toughness" take us utter ********.

 

@TropicalFruitGirl26 is right on point by saying a mentally weak team rolls up the carpets and heads for Buffalo down 5-1 with less than 10 to play.

This team kept skating, kept going to the net and was finally rewarded.

That's toughness, that game was over, yet somehow this group managed a point when the parking lot was filling up after the 5th goal.

This same group of players managed to keep playing and grinding even though they didn't win 10 straight games last year, somehow that bunch of gutless sissies managed to accrue 98 points and a playoff berth.

Mentally weak teams fold the tents and don't make the playoffs after that.

 

I don't give a **** about fighting anymore, the league has made it so that aspect of the game isn't accessible. The self policing and pressure release from home and home games isn't tolerated. The staged fights suck, the game suffers IMO because of this, however this is the reality we live in. Longing for a game and style that is no longer feasible is a fools errand.

 

Losing on the scoreboard but beating someone's ass still means losing on the scoreboard, they don't give cups to the guys that win the fights until they're in their 60's and at the home.

This team is repeatedly betrayed by its goaltending and penalty kill. Fighting and "toughness" do not fix those issues. 

 

What you say is then that they are drafting the wrong guys. So gut all of players and mangment then.  The start again.All of sports are going to flag football way.

 

 

[mojo1917]

15 minutes ago, Jam1986 said:

What you say is then that they are drafting the wrong guys. So gut all of players and mangment then.  The start again.All of sports are going to flag football way.

Uh, no.

How did you arrive at this conclusion from reading my post?

Without going too far down a hole here.

There is more than one way to define toughness.

I don't think this team under Dave Hakstol has been "easy" to play against physically,  these guys do hit and take hits to make plays they aren't afraid of contact.  Somehow that's not tough enough because Rick Tocchet once played here.

The longing for days that aren't coming back doesn't change the reality of the present, you know?

There are good players on this team, who while aren't knuckle dragging goons aren't afraid to hit and take a hit.

 

Toughness or perceived lack there of isn't this team's problem. Goaltending and penalty killing is. 

I thought I was pretty clear there.

 

[Jam1986]

Watch on last Sat during second and third period on hockey in Canada. Just want some jam in the game. No goons but like Tocchett and Neely that are all around players. In the end just like my hockey want them to win.

[RonJeremy]

I'm not saying I want goons, but some talented guys with a mean streak, who can defend himself and also defend his teammates, can certainly help this team .Pronger,  Getzlaf , Perry, Subban, Richards, Tkachuk. None of these guys are goons. Other than Simmonds and eventually Morin, we lack this type of player. I know guys like this are scarce, that's why I wanted us to trade up for Tkachuk in the last draft. 

 

Of course crappy goaltending, horrible special teams and inconsistent defense are the primary reason we stink. I'm just fed up with boring lifeless hockey. A guy like Marchand is a douche and we hate him, but I wish we had a guy like that. A guy who can stir it up, get the team going, get the crowd going and also score goals. Our team is plain vanilla.

[brelic]

23 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

I'm not saying I want goons, but some talented guys with a mean streak, who can defend himself and also defend his teammates, can certainly help this team .Pronger,  Getzlaf , Perry, Subban, Richards, Tkachuk. None of these guys are goons. Other than Simmonds and eventually Morin, we lack this type of player. I know guys like this are scarce, that's why I wanted us to trade up for Tkachuk in the last draft. 

 

Of course crappy goaltending, horrible special teams and inconsistent defense are the primary reason we stink. I'm just fed up with boring lifeless hockey. A guy like Marchand is a douche and we hate him, but I wish we had a guy like that. A guy who can stir it up, get the team going, get the crowd going and also score goals. Our team is plain vanilla.

 

Simmonds is like that.

 

TK is like that. He dropped 6'6" Hedman like he was a sack of potatoes.

 

Voracek crosschecked whatever punk punched Lindblom, and he's been noticeably more aggressive lately using his body.

 

Hagg regularly hits hard, so does Folin. 

 

But everything in the NHL is very tame and safe now compared to how it was.

 

I get what you're saying, but of all the players you named, only one is young and beginning his career. Pronger and Richards are out of the league, Getzlaf and Perry are end of career, and Subban is 29. They are from a previous generation of players. 

 

 

[RonJeremy]

That's why I wanted Tkachuk,  he is old school and we are probably losing Simmonds to FA.