Who would you trade Hart for?

[King Knut]

14 hours ago, Claude Monet said:

My friend sent me a text saying the Flyers traded Hart to the rangers...( this is the guy who gives me Winterhawks tixs...and knows how Hart broke the Winterhawks dreams) I knew it was a joke but still......

 

given phillys goalie situation... would you trade Hart straight up for mc David? I say no considering how many assets the flyers have coming up . I have dreamed for this goalie since ‘87

 

I actually would trade him for McDavid.  

 

Mostly because Ustimenko looks incredibly solid right now and Sandstrom looks decent too.

 

I don't want to trade Hart, but if someone wants to give you the best player in a couple of decades, you take that chance, especially if your goalie coffers aren't exactly empty.  

 

While we can see what we have with Hart and those other guys are still just magic beans, McDavid is a generational talent far and away more talented than any other in the league and way more talented than anyone on the Flyers or in our system... and he's just wallowing away uselessly in Edmonton.  

 

I'm not saying he's Gretzky type revolutionary, but he's better than anyone who's come into the league since Lindros  and head bashing isn't really part of his game as long as Brandon Manning isn't in the lineup.

 

That said, Edmonton would be lunatics to trade him.  

[mojo1917]

I would trade Hart for McDavid, in large part so I could start blaming him for the Flyers troubles...Lindros has earned a break.

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, ruxpin said:

There is literally no NHL player I would trade Carter Hart for straight up. 

 

Edmonton has proven that while McDavid is a special player, without a goalie what does it matter? 

 

No, I don't do that. 

 

I would begrudgingly consider Carlson, Samsonov, and a 1st rounder. But I'm not excited about it. 

 

 

 

Edmonton has a great many problems besides their goalie.  Talbot isn't even as bad as that team makes him look... not that he's great or anything.

 

This is kind of a silly thread and no trades for Hart are happening (I hope) but the thing to keep in mind is that the Flyers are a much more fleshed out roster than Edmonton is AND they also have at least two more goalies (ranging from impressive to extremely impressive) knocking on the door of North America across the next two years.  

 

Which isn't to say they'll be anywhere near as good as Hart has been (that would be next to impossible).  

 

Long story short is, McDavid to this current Flyers roster and they could win a cup with Cam Talbot fairly easily... as long as Dave Hakstol is on a different continent.  

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Mostly because Ustimenko looks incredibly solid right now and Sandstrom looks decent too.

 

Slow your roll bro....Ustimenko is dominating in the MHL not the KHL and even if he was look at how the Caps goalie Samsonov has struggled since coming over from the KHL.

 

The MHL is like the junior version for the KHL....while it is good he is playing well let's keep it in perspective.

 

And Sandstrom too has had his ups and downs this year for HV71 in the SHL so they need time to adjust and should be give whatever time frame they need.

 

And yeah i just brought Mcdavid up for shats and giggles the Oilers ain't trading Mcdavid till he is at least 32 or older.

[King Knut]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

Slow your roll bro....Ustimenko is dominating in the MHL not the KHL and even if he was look at how the Caps goalie Samsonov has struggled since coming over from the KHL.

 

The MHL is like the junior version for the KHL....while it is good he is playing well let's keep it in perspective.

 

And Sandstrom too has had his ups and downs this year for HV71 in the SHL so they need time to adjust and should be give whatever time frame they need.

 

And yeah i just brought Mcdavid up for shats and giggles the Oilers ain't trading Mcdavid till he is at least 32 or older.

 

Well A) I think we all know no such deal is happening, so this is a goofy thread with goofy ideas, not actual suggestions.

 

but B) I'm not saying either one would definitely work out.  All I'm really saying is that Ustimenko and Sandstrom are looking more promising than any other goalie not named Carter Hart we've had in our system in the last 20 years.  Which really just means that we wouldn't have to despair endlessly and assume we're stuck with Elliott and Neuvirth forever at the loss of Hart if we got the best player in the world back for him.  

 

And I thought Claude Monet started the thread and mentioned McDavid?

 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

Well A) I think we all know no such deal is happening, so this is a goofy thread with goofy ideas, not actual suggestions.

 

but B) I'm not saying either one would definitely work out.  All I'm really saying is that Ustimenko and Sandstrom are looking more promising than any other goalie not named Carter Hart we've had in our system in the last 20 years.  Which really just means that we wouldn't have to despair endlessly and assume we're stuck with Elliott and Neuvirth forever at the loss of Hart if we got the best player in the world back for him.  

 

And I thought Claude Monet started the thread and mentioned McDavid?

 

 

 

 

I agree with all of that.

 

We just need to keep in mind that if these guys come over and struggle a while to adjust that it was to be expected (at least by me).

 

And it could take a year or two because i just don't think they are as developed as Hart was and they should be given the time to grow into their roles...but we know how many fans if they don't immediately light it up are quick to call the bust (not saying you are ones of those).

 

I mean just look at Stolie he just turned 25 and has been in juniors, college and the AHL and has went through his growing pains along with injuries but look here he is still grinding trying to carve a spot out on the team.

 

I am pulling for the kid. I think he is more than ready to back Hart up. 

 

It could be a sweet deal to get two goalies on very cheap deals for maybe 2 years after this one. Would give the Flyers plenty of cap space to spend elsewhere on the roster.

 

But yeah ain't no Hart for Mcdavid ever going down except on someone's X- Box.

[JR Ewing]

38 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

 

Edmonton has a great many problems besides their goalie.  Talbot isn't even as bad as that team makes him look... not that he's great or anything.

 

 

When McDavid is on the ice, the Oilers have the best goal differential in hockey. When he's off the ice, the Oilers have the worst goal differential in hockey. The difference is that stark. Every single trade of Peter Chiarelli's, that I can run through my head, resulted in less talent return than was sent out. The best players in Edmonton all pre-date his time as GM, and now they're left with a slow, largely untalented team, and they're pushing up against the salary cap for good measure.

 

Some GMs drink from the fountain of knowledge, but Peter Chiarelli only gargled.

[OccamsRazor]

4 minutes ago, JR Ewing said:

 

When McDavid is on the ice, the Oilers have the best goal differential in hockey. When he's off the ice, the Oilers have the worst goal differential in hockey. The difference is that stark. Every single trade of Peter Chiarelli's, that I can run through my head, resulted in less talent return than was sent out. The best players in Edmonton all pre-date his time as GM, and now they're left with a slow, largely untalented team, and they're pushing up against the salary cap for good measure.

 

Some GMs drink from the fountain of knowledge, but Peter Chiarelli only gargled.

 

 

I can't believe they let him sign Mikko Koskinen to that deal...3 years 13.5 mill for a 30 year old with 30 total NHL games.

 

That is crazy should they have done that before they let him work out that deal??? Or was that the final nail in the coffin??

[JR Ewing]

Just now, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

I can't believe they let him sign Mikko Koskinen to that deal...3 years 13.5 mill for a 30 year old with 30 total NHL games.

 

That is crazy should they have done that before they let him work out that deal??? Or was that the final nail in the coffin??

 

It means that the problem is as bad as I've been saying for years: the rest of the management group were fully on board with Koskinen signing. Bob Nicholson even said so, the next day at the "We fired Peter" press conference. You're talking about a deep level of managerial dysfunction when you allow a GM to sign such a risky deal at a 4-year term but then fire the GM the very next day.

 

• The Oilers management group think they're the smartest guys in the room, and the record says literally the opposite, to say the very least.
• The Oilers consistently think that their team is much better than it really is, and then feel fine to push platitudes of "we had injury problems", even though every team deals with it.
• The Oilers have, for years now, talked about a need to add character. Nicholson talked about it at the same presser I mentioned above. This bears commenting on:

They've been trying to bring in leadership since Steve Tambellini was GM. MacT (current Pres. of Hockey Ops) brought in Andrew Ference in an attempt, and then tried signing David Clarkson to a $7M deal in a further attempt. Chiarelli brought in an boat anchor contract heavy enough to pull a cruise ship underwater with Milan Lucic. They ran off Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle and a million other players because they felt that character was an issue.

 

The Oilers spend too much time, energy and money chasing after character and leadership and almost none of it chasing talented players. Nicholson talked about finding a GM that fits into the Oilers culture, and I cringed so hard the 16 hairs on my head that were brown instantly turned white. THE OILERS CULTURE *** IS *** THE PROBLEM!

 

It's the Oilers culture to take management failure and promote them to different positions to foul the franchise with. Their culture fast-tracks boys immediately into a men's league, regardless of whether they're ready, and seem completely incapable of figuring out that you can't go fast to get there early. The Oilers culture pushes players to return from injury too soon, with career-altering effect (Nugent-Hopkins is an example). The Oilers culture gets rid of prime-aged established players, causing most of their team to play above their established level of ability, with the results you would expect. It's the Oilers culture that then blames the players for management's mistakes. It's the Oilers culture that, when their best player is off the ice, they can't even get 45% of the goal share. It's Oilers culture to finish at or near the bottom of the standings.

 

They don't need a GM that fits into the Oilers culture. The Oilers have a LOSER culture; a culture convinced of its own righteousness and possessed of a level of self-belief not commensurate with their level of success. They are losers. All of the players have changed over in the last decade. All of the trainers, all of the equipment managers. Everybody. Only the Old Boys Club remains. They were fine hockey players, but define incompetence as managers.

 

The Oilers need a GM that can tear that toxic and disastrous and arrogant culture to pieces and replace it with one based in competence and consequences and respect for the players and fans alike. I fear that it won't happen. They have a jock-sniffing miniature little owner living his NHL dream, hanging out with his buddies that he hired and place around him, and whom he protects when they repeatedly fail.

 

I've got to stop. I'm honestly spitting mad writing this post. It's maddening and exhausting, and I think that books will be written about the sort of gross incompetence which the fans have been subjected to over the years. It makes me look back with fondness on the days of the team being so poor they couldn't even afford to ice an AHL.

 

At least they had some sort of excuse.

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I agree with all of that.

 

We just need to keep in mind that if these guys come over and struggle a while to adjust that it was to be expected (at least by me).

 

And it could take a year or two because i just don't think they are as developed as Hart was and they should be given the time to grow into their roles...but we know how many fans if they don't immediately light it up are quick to call the bust (not saying you are ones of those).

 

I mean just look at Stolie he just turned 25 and has been in juniors, college and the AHL and has went through his growing pains along with injuries but look here he is still grinding trying to carve a spot out on the team.

 

I am pulling for the kid. I think he is more than ready to back Hart up. 

 

It could be a sweet deal to get two goalies on very cheap deals for maybe 2 years after this one. Would give the Flyers plenty of cap space to spend elsewhere on the roster.

 

But yeah ain't no Hart for Mcdavid ever going down except on someone's X- Box.

 

Totally on all of that.  I guess unjust meant that if there was no Hart, we’d have two guys that look very good but yeah, still at least a year or two away. 

 

I wasnt sold on bringing  Hart up yet.  

Well theyvhad little choice but to try him I guess, but I’m only in favor of keeping him up because he’s literally given them no choice.  I still get nervous at how many games he’s playing.  That’s hard work on a young body and as we’ve seen goalies wear down quickly in this league.  There were guys who thought he was a bust because he wasn’t tearing up the AHL  yet.   

 

I tend to err on the other side of patience. 

 

I’m with you on Stolie.  I have Long loved his style and approach.  Until Hart came along, I thought he was technically the most sound Flyer netminder since I don’t know when.  Maybe ‘00 Boosh.  I like sound boring goalies better than amazing flippers. 

 

Stolie and Hart have shown they can be sound and make the acrobatic savebonce in a while.  That’s solid gold. Now if we can just get some consistently healthy stretches from stolie, I think we may ben on to something like you said. 

 

I’m curious as to what they’ll do in nets.  We’ll see.  Lord knows they can’t play it too safe with backups on this team. 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, JR Ewing said:

 

When McDavid is on the ice, the Oilers have the best goal differential in hockey. When he's off the ice, the Oilers have the worst goal differential in hockey. The difference is that stark. Every single trade of Peter Chiarelli's, that I can run through my head, resulted in less talent return than was sent out. The best players in Edmonton all pre-date his time as GM, and now they're left with a slow, largely untalented team, and they're pushing up against the salary cap for good measure.

 

Some GMs drink from the fountain of knowledge, but Peter Chiarelli only gargled.

 

There is no explanation for the idiotic moves that guy made.  

 

He makes 2012-2014 Holmgren look like a sly genius.  

[Claude Monet]

I didn’t start the thread but did throw out the Mcdavid idea... while at the bar consuming beers

 

 

[flyercanuck]

16 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

McDavid *could* be that guy, we don't know yet.

 

Either.

 

Well he has 2 Art Ross trophies, a Hart and 2 Ted Lindsays (NHLPAs version of Hart) and 336 points in 262 games playing on the most dysfunctionally run team in hockey...I'd say he's that guy.

[flyercanuck]

12 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

When McDavid is on the ice, the Oilers have the best goal differential in hockey. When he's off the ice, the Oilers have the worst goal differential in hockey.

 

Okay....THAT says even more than any trophy can.

[flyercanuck]

10 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

There is no explanation for the idiotic moves that guy made.  

 

He makes 2012-2014 Holmgren look like a sly genius.  

 

Well, not as stupid anyway.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Well he has 2 Art Ross trophies, a Hart and 2 Ted Lindsays (NHLPAs version of Hart) and 336 points in 262 games playing on the most dysfunctionally run team in hockey...I'd say he's that guy.

 

But no Stanley Cup trophy and only one playoff round series win.

 

 

[JR Ewing]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Okay....THAT says even more than any trophy can.

 

"But the Oilers didn't make the playoffs; how valuable can he be?", he replied sarcastically... Yes, it bothers me that much that he probably won't get a sniff at the Hart for years, no matter how good he is, because of the fetish most media members have for making the playoffs, as if the NHL still allows just over 3/4 of the teams into the post-season.

 

[elmatus]

I have to say, it's hilarious to me how we're currently debating the finer points of trading Hart for McDavid. This is the forum equivalent of NHL19.

 

Anyway, Hart is amazing clearly, but anyone who would pass up the unbridled talent of McDavid is not thinking things through imo. Thankfully, even Edmonton would never do this type of trade, so it's a moot point.

 

Put in more simpler terms: Does Hart become the best goalie of the next 10 years? It's possible I suppose, but we're very far from making any sort of real claim to that effect at this point. Is McDavid likely to be the best player of the next 10 years? Yes, he absolutely is.

 

The fact Edmonton cannot make the playoffs despite having him on the team just goes to show how horrible that roster and management is. Any games they win at all are almost 100% because of him. He is the Edmonton Oilers.

[sweetshot]

14 hours ago, King Knut said:

16 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

Some GMs drink from the fountain of knowledge, but Peter Chiarelli only gargled.

 

Instead, he drank deeply from the cup of self-esteem...

[sweetshot]

15 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

It means that the problem is as bad as I've been saying for years: the rest of the management group were fully on board with Koskinen signing. Bob Nicholson even said so, the next day at the "We fired Peter" press conference. You're talking about a deep level of managerial dysfunction when you allow a GM to sign such a risky deal at a 4-year term but then fire the GM the very next day.

 

• The Oilers management group think they're the smartest guys in the room, and the record says literally the opposite, to say the very least.
• The Oilers consistently think that their team is much better than it really is, and then feel fine to push platitudes of "we had injury problems", even though every team deals with it.
• The Oilers have, for years now, talked about a need to add character. Nicholson talked about it at the same presser I mentioned above. This bears commenting on:

They've been trying to bring in leadership since Steve Tambellini was GM. MacT (current Pres. of Hockey Ops) brought in Andrew Ference in an attempt, and then tried signing David Clarkson to a $7M deal in a further attempt. Chiarelli brought in an boat anchor contract heavy enough to pull a cruise ship underwater with Milan Lucic. They ran off Taylor Hall and Jordan Eberle and a million other players because they felt that character was an issue.

 

The Oilers spend too much time, energy and money chasing after character and leadership and almost none of it chasing talented players. Nicholson talked about finding a GM that fits into the Oilers culture, and I cringed so hard the 16 hairs on my head that were brown instantly turned white. THE OILERS CULTURE *** IS *** THE PROBLEM!

 

It's the Oilers culture to take management failure and promote them to different positions to foul the franchise with. Their culture fast-tracks boys immediately into a men's league, regardless of whether they're ready, and seem completely incapable of figuring out that you can't go fast to get there early. The Oilers culture pushes players to return from injury too soon, with career-altering effect (Nugent-Hopkins is an example). The Oilers culture gets rid of prime-aged established players, causing most of their team to play above their established level of ability, with the results you would expect. It's the Oilers culture that then blames the players for management's mistakes. It's the Oilers culture that, when their best player is off the ice, they can't even get 45% of the goal share. It's Oilers culture to finish at or near the bottom of the standings.

 

They don't need a GM that fits into the Oilers culture. The Oilers have a LOSER culture; a culture convinced of its own righteousness and possessed of a level of self-belief not commensurate with their level of success. They are losers. All of the players have changed over in the last decade. All of the trainers, all of the equipment managers. Everybody. Only the Old Boys Club remains. They were fine hockey players, but define incompetence as managers.

 

The Oilers need a GM that can tear that toxic and disastrous and arrogant culture to pieces and replace it with one based in competence and consequences and respect for the players and fans alike. I fear that it won't happen. They have a jock-sniffing miniature little owner living his NHL dream, hanging out with his buddies that he hired and place around him, and whom he protects when they repeatedly fail.

 

I've got to stop. I'm honestly spitting mad writing this post. It's maddening and exhausting, and I think that books will be written about the sort of gross incompetence which the fans have been subjected to over the years. It makes me look back with fondness on the days of the team being so poor they couldn't even afford to ice an AHL.

 

At least they had some sort of excuse.

 

Man. I thought it was frustrating being a Wild fan. I've been a closet Oilers fan going back to the dynasty days--I genuinely hope they can get things back on track soon--as a hockey fan IMO this is as much about McDavid as it is Edmonton. I know one player is not bigger than the game, but the Edmonton brass are looking like total idiots for not getting him a decent supporting cast. I, for one, would absolutely hate to see the best player in the world languishing on some 2-bit team. No offense meant toward the Edmonton faithful...

[JR Ewing]

57 minutes ago, elmatus said:

I have to say, it's hilarious to me how we're currently debating the finer points of trading Hart for McDavid. This is the forum equivalent of NHL19.

 

Anyway, Hart is amazing clearly, but anyone who would pass up the unbridled talent of McDavid is not thinking things through imo. Thankfully, even Edmonton would never do this type of trade, so it's a moot point.

 

Put in more simpler terms: Does Hart become the best goalie of the next 10 years? It's possible I suppose, but we're very far from making any sort of real claim to that effect at this point. Is McDavid likely to be the best player of the next 10 years? Yes, he absolutely is.

 

The fact Edmonton cannot make the playoffs despite having him on the team just goes to show how horrible that roster and management is. Any games they win at all are almost 100% because of him. He is the Edmonton Oilers.

 

Even if the team weren't to win a Cup, or go as far as they should, having him there is worth preposterous amounts of money. I sometimes think of a comment I read in Net Worth, by Ed Snider, where he said that the Lindros trade was instantly amazing for the Flyers, and netted him many millions in profits. The sheer amount of money that McDavid (just like a Crosby or OV, etc) is worth to any hockey team is pretty staggering stuff.

 

[JR Ewing]

12 minutes ago, sweetshot said:

Man. I thought it was frustrating being a Wild fan. I've been a closet Oilers fan going back to the dynasty days--I genuinely hope they can get things back on track soon--as a hockey fan IMO this is as much about McDavid as it is Edmonton. I know one player is not bigger than the game, but the Edmonton brass are looking like total idiots for not getting him a decent supporting cast. I, for one, would absolutely hate to see the best player in the world languishing on some 2-bit team. No offense meant toward the Edmonton faithful...

 

Most of the fans in Edmonton are savages, as per Dustin Penner, but they've been damned near been traumatized by an entire generation of complete and total incompetence and disregard for the money they spend on the team in the form of tickets, jerseys, etc.

 

The sad thing is that there was a decent supporting cast there; they just had to round it out and actually develop a player or two. Chiarelli refused, though, and almost immediately began crippling the team with terrible trades (Griffin Reinhart essentially for Matthew Barzal, the Hall deal, etc). If the Oilers had painted a face on a rock and stuck it in the GM seat, they would be perfectly fine today.

 

But, it was never destined to happen. The men who hired him are also incompetent. I've mentioned it before, but the Oilers have, for a very long time operated from the Bad Process / Bad Result approach to running a team.

 

 

I don't see a way out, either.

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

But no Stanley Cup trophy and only one playoff round series win.

 

 

 

How are you supposed to win a cup on that team? Or win playoff rounds?

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

But no Stanley Cup trophy and only one playoff round series win.

 

 

 

He'd be perfect on the Flyers.  Put him on the ice for 20 minutes, Giroux for 20 minutes and Couturier on the ice for 20 minutes and don't commit a penalty.   

[King Knut]

30 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

How are you supposed to win a cup on that team? Or win playoff rounds?

 

You get traded for an actual full roster like the Nordiques did with Lindros I guess is your best shot.