Matt Dumba - Trade Him?

[Hockey-78]

Dumba with a serious collection of his usual bonehead plays to start the season. -14 in only 17 games, ugh, and not even compensating it with the kind of scoring that earned him his current contract. And while he may not be utilized properly, I don't think this is the play a $6 mil. man should provide.

 

Use Dumba as the trade bait to acquire that #1 line center Guerin is daydreaming about?

[Icechipper]

Given his relatively young age, he is really part of the future d core, he and Brodin serve as a balance and hopefully solid professional example between the vets (Suter Spurgeon Hunt Parise Foligno Staal Koivu) and a group of guys barely old enough to drink (EEk Donato Fiala Soucy Greenway Donato) So who exactly is that No. 1 center you would target? Taylor Hall? Malkin would be cool but he's hurt and we'd be giving up youth and potential for another vet. Way this season is going Wild should be trading for picks and prospects. Intriguing idea you float but I think dumping Dumba would come back to bite us. Would not be surprised to see Wild pick up a Vet on waivers (Spezza?) for center depth. Or, how is Sturm doing down on the farm?

Edited November 12, 2019 by Icechipper

[4Check]

Please....not Spezza.   Rapidly declining 36 year old.  Good guy, but the Wild already lead the league in 30 somethings.

[lynxrattle]

Dumba is a wrong sort of player for a team in our situation. He's a luxury for those teams that can afford a defensive mistake here and there. The Wild needs d-men that play a near flawless defensive game, and Dumba needs a team that lives by its offensive prowess. A trade could be win-win-win. Win for the Wild, Win for the other team and win for Dumba. I wouldn't trade for a 1C already playing, though. We won't be needing a 1c in the near future. We need picks instead and we should acquire the future 1C with a high pick, with the idea of being competitive 5 - 6 years from now.

[ClusterChuck]

It was amazing after only having that 1 breakout season that he was given this contract.

The only thing offsetting his defensive errors last year was the scoring. He's on pace for what? 10 this year?!

Maybe it's contract signing hangover but I'd trade him or (if possible) expose him to the draft.

There's nothing telling me he's the next Burns like so many think.

 

[Icechipper]

Ouch. You had to bring up Burns......

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

4 hours ago, lynxrattle said:

Dumba is a wrong sort of player for a team in our situation. He's a luxury for those teams that can afford a defensive mistake here and there. The Wild needs d-men that play a near flawless defensive game, and Dumba needs a team that lives by its offensive prowess. A trade could be win-win-win. Win for the Wild, Win for the other team and win for Dumba. I wouldn't trade for a 1C already playing, though. We won't be needing a 1c in the near future. We need picks instead and we should acquire the future 1C with a high pick, with the idea of being competitive 5 - 6 years from now.

 

Agree 1000% with this... Dumba is just now entering his positional prime (should peak around 27 or 28), and the Wild are neither good enough to take advantage of what he can bring to the team, nor bad enough to where they can quickly add a bunch of high draft picks and do a quick turnaround and have Dumba still be on the right side of his prime when the team is ready to compete.

As much as I hate the idea of trading him, his value might be best as a trade chip. If Fenton was still at the helm, that would scare the crap out of me given past "value" trades, but perhaps Guerin will actually do some research and negotiating and get the best possible deal should he decide to actually trade the budding young defenseman.

 

1 hour ago, ClusterChuck said:

It was amazing after only having that 1 breakout season that he was given this contract.

The only thing offsetting his defensive errors last year was the scoring. He's on pace for what? 10 this year?!

Maybe it's contract signing hangover but I'd trade him or (if possible) expose him to the draft.

There's nothing telling me he's the next Burns like so many think.

 

 

Yes, Dumba may have been paid too much, too soon based on small samples of work, but unfortunately, that's the way the league is trending....and if any team wants to keep their upper tier talent, big contracts, even somewhat risky ones, appear to be the norm.

That said, and to be fair, Dumba at 25 can STILL grow...personally I think he has come a long way from the less confident, spazzy, empty headed player he was when he first came up.
While he obviously will still do some dumb things out there (no pun intended   ), right now, I will just attribute that to his current support system (not particularly strong), and the fact that he is still a young d-man with lots of room for improvement.

If he is still making the same ol, same ol mistakes by age 27, then I think we can officially call him a "talented cement head"

 

7 hours ago, Icechipper said:

Given his relatively young age, he is really part of the future d core, he and Brodin serve as a balance and hopefully solid professional example between the vets (Suter Spurgeon Hunt Parise Foligno Staal Koivu) and a group of guys barely old enough to drink (EEk Donato Fiala Soucy Greenway Donato) So who exactly is that No. 1 center you would target? Taylor Hall? Malkin would be cool but he's hurt and we'd be giving up youth and potential for another vet. Way this season is going Wild should be trading for picks and prospects. Intriguing idea you float but I think dumping Dumba would come back to bite us. Would not be surprised to see Wild pick up a Vet on waivers (Spezza?) for center depth. Or, how is Sturm doing down on the farm?

 

If the future was just 2 or 3 years away, then I'd agree.
But I think this team needs at LEAST 5 years, maybe 6 to truly turn things around. By that time, not only will his contract run out, but he will be on that dreaded "other side" of the hill....and his best thoroughbred years would have been wasted.

Trading a guy like Dumba, IMO, would truly signal the sign of a rebuild.
But since many players on the team have NTC's or NMC's, the only way to get them to waive to go elsewhere is to trade away other big movable players for picks and sub 25 yr old players..... the vets simply would not have the stomach to dig in for a 5 or 6 year rebuild.

Edited November 13, 2019 by TropicalFruitGirl26

[ClusterChuck]

2 minutes ago, TropicalFruitGirl26 said:

 

 

 

 

That said, and to be fair, (1) Dumba at 25 can STILL grow...personally I think he has come a long way from the less confident, spazzy, empty headed player he was when he first came up.
(2) While he obviously will still do some dumb things out there (no pun intended   ), right now, I will just attribute that to his current support system (not particularly strong), and the fact that he is still a young d-man with lots of room for improvement.

If he is still making the same ol, same ol mistakes by age 27, then I think we can officially call him a (3) "talented cement head"

 

 

If the future was just 2 or 3 years away, then I'd agree.
But I think this team needs at LEAST 5 years, maybe 6 to truly turn things around. By that time, not only will his contract run out, but he will be on that dreaded "other side" of the hill....and his best thoroughbred years would have been wasted.
 

I'm a bit confused on where you stand on Matt.

#'s 1 +2 caught my eye as ...Can he grow in this current SS ?

#3, Great name.  but unless he picks it up THIS season, especially before trade time, I don't want to be carrying all that old cement around for 2 more years.

I'm just frustrated with Matt since I changed my tune on him last year. OK, Maybe this kid is the real deal, Yet now he's reverted to 2 seasons ago.

 

Given Guerin's predecessors, I'd have to think he wants to turn this around 'his way' but in a shorter time frame than 5-6 years.

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

3 minutes ago, ClusterChuck said:

I'm a bit confused on where you stand on Matt.

#'s 1 +2 caught my eye as ...Can he grow in this current SS ?

#3, Great name.  but unless he picks it up THIS season, especially before trade time, I don't want to be carrying all that old cement around for 2 more years.

I'm just frustrated with Matt since I changed my tune on him last year. OK, Maybe this kid is the real deal, Yet now he's reverted to 2 seasons ago.

 

Given Guerin's predecessors, I'd have to think he wants to turn this around 'his way' but in a shorter time frame than 5-6 years.

 

I like Dumba as a player. I'd like him to stay, but I also realize the team is not in the best position to win and won't be for a long while...wasting away his prime developing years. Thus, I think he is best as a trade chip...provided the owner actually decides to do a proper rebuild and that the GM can get a good return for him.

When I say he can "grow", I mean as a player of his position. It is one thing to become a good defender (he can still do that), but another thing to become a great, WINNING defender....harder to do in his current environment.
As you know, defensemen typically mature slower than forwards due to all the extra responsibility they generally have. 
Especially when a defenseman like Dumba is being asked to provide both offense and defense.

He can still go a long way with his own talents, hopefully learn a lot from observation....but without a winning culture to be immersed in, he likely never takes that next step to being top tier at anything he does.

I was messing around with make believe trade scenarios, and since I am a fan of the Lightning as well, was thinking of a way both teams could make a trade...…. Dumba would fit in VERY NICELY on TB and the Lightning have quite a number of good young forwards they could trade for a 25 yr old like him.
And some of the Bolts young pieces which they AREN'T using on the big club now are centers or top six wingers.

Problem is the money doesn't work. Bolts are near the top of the cap, so if they want to take on Dumba's 6M, they would have to move out something similar...and just about all their big money players also have NMC or NTC's.... the younger guys they could spare (including Mikhail Sergachev), all are ELC's, team friendly deals, or about to get raises, but nothing monstrous above the 5 or 6 M mark...

So while the player Dumba would fit in well in TB, and guys like maybe Verhaeghe, Sergachev, Raddysh, Sompii, even Cirelli (on the big club now) or Joseph would go nicely towards a solid Wild rebuild, the money, sadly, just doesn't work.
 

[Icechipper]

Didn't Dumba get time with Suter last season?

Edited November 13, 2019 by Icechipper

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

46 minutes ago, Icechipper said:

Didn't Dumba get time with Suter last season?

 

I can't remember how often (last season, short as it was for Dumba...but even the year before that as well), without looking up TOI and pairings charts, but yes, he did get time with Suter.

[CreaseAndAssist]

Trading Dumba would be a horribly stupid and short-sighted idea right now.  This team sucks.  The values of all of our players are low.  Selling low is foolish.  Its part of the reason we ended up with so many lame 1-for-1 'hockey trades' by Fenton.  Opposing teams weren't offering much.  

 

If this team wants to make real progress.  Find a way to rid ourselves of #9, #11 or #20.  Getting rid of one of those players and their respective contracts is really the best step towards rebuilding this team.  Tossing away Dumba for crap in return (which is what we'd probably get for him at this point)...its a loser's bet.  Just wait, be patient...be bad and rebuild through the draft.  

[CreaseAndAssist]

There is no one else in the Wild's system that has Dumba's offensive talent from the blueline.  Either Johansson...not nearly enough offense.  Belpedio, hasn't been a big scorer in the AHL.  Menell has piled up the assists but he's not the goal scorer Dumba could be.  Let's not forget, Dubnyk's game has steadily eroded.  Is it just bad plays or poor choices...or is a sub-par goalie giving up soft goals?  Is that on Dumba?  I think it'd be short-sighted to ship him out at this point.  

[Hockey-78]

6 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

It was amazing after only having that 1 breakout season that he was given this contract.

The only thing offsetting his defensive errors last year was the scoring. He's on pace for what? 10 this year?!

Maybe it's contract signing hangover but I'd trade him or (if possible) expose him to the draft.

There's nothing telling me he's the next Burns like so many think.

 

You see a lot of these signing hangovers these days, don't you?!

 

But seriously, he's been the machine of turnovers for years. Despite his excellent shot and speed even toughness, his low hockey IQ and inability to cut down his gaffes have made me doubt him. Can't remember the poster who even suggested a couple of years ago Dumba would be the Wild's #1 d-man.

 

Still even Suter is better than Dumba with his half-a$$ effort. Dumba facing the opponent's top line night and day? Recipe for disaster. (although as I write, Dumba apparently was the Wild's best d-man against the Kings)

 

$6 mil. a year to a 2nd pair d-man who's defensively so-and-so, offensively nothing special. Sounds steep. The Wild need more of a fast #1 line center than an ordinary 2nd pair d-man. The way things are going, the Wild are not going get that center via draft.

 

[Hockey-78]

3 hours ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

Trading Dumba would be a horribly stupid and short-sighted idea right now.  This team sucks.  The values of all of our players are low.  Selling low is foolish.  Its part of the reason we ended up with so many lame 1-for-1 'hockey trades' by Fenton.  Opposing teams weren't offering much.  

 

If this team wants to make real progress.  Find a way to rid ourselves of #9, #11 or #20.  Getting rid of one of those players and their respective contracts is really the best step towards rebuilding this team.  Tossing away Dumba for crap in return (which is what we'd probably get for him at this point)...its a loser's bet.  Just wait, be patient...be bad and rebuild through the draft.  

Relax, I just threw it out there. Nothing much else to discuss in here.

 

Losses? Lack of effort? Poor PP? Anchor contracts the Wild can't get rid of? GM who does nothing? The owner, living in his fantasy world? None of the prospects showing development?

 

I think we've covered all of those already.

[lynxrattle]

I think Dumba has great potential in the right environment. TBL, Toronto, teams like that. I think Guerin should be able to pull off a good trade. Dumba was noticed last season and the GM's probably think he suffers at least to a degree from the Wild's ineptitude. But I do of course agree on keeping Dumba if there is not a really good deal to be done. A high 1st round pick plus something major to sweeten the deal for the Wild. It would be very sour to be looking at Dumba scoring for another team, so definitely no Fenton type of trades.

[IllaZilla]

I'd just ride this thing out. Why trade Dumba right now? You'd get nothing in return. Certainly not a first round pick.

 

And why try to improve this train wreck? Isn't this what we wanted? A really bad team so we FINALLY get a shot at a lottery pick? This is the only way to make that idiot Leipold wake up and see that these guys aren't any good and to quit looking at Parise and Staal and Koivu and Suter like they are still in their prime. Because they're not and haven't been for a while.

 

But, hey, "tweaks"...

[ClusterChuck]

24 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

I'd just ride this thing out. Why trade Dumba right now? You'd get nothing in return. Certainly not a first round pick.

 

And why try to improve this train wreck? Isn't this what we wanted? A really bad team so we FINALLY get a shot at a lottery pick? This is the only way to make that idiot Leipold wake up and see that these guys aren't any good and to quit looking at Parise and Staal and Koivu and Suter like they are still in their prime. Because they're not and haven't been for a while.

 

But, hey, "tweaks"...

I've never been a fan of 'Tanking' for the sake of 'A possibility' of a #1 pick. 2009 Edm sucked  got the top pick and that turned it all around. 

That 1 good player led the to.......Another #1 pick next year....And now they have 2 and Edm is on it's way to..........A 3rd straight #1 pick.

So what if we got a good pick. We'd still have basically the same group around him if we don't start dismantling certain parts that we can.

 

Let's say there's a problem in your house's wall. Dumba is like the wet or cracked drywall. Not the main problem, But you have to remove him to get in deeper. And as suspected your foundation is old and not functioning properly.

"Tweaks" were Fletch and Fenton's go-to...I have to hope Guerin isn't going that route and actually has a build plan in mind.

 

8 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

You see a lot of these signing hangovers these days, don't you?!

 

But seriously, he's been the machine of turnovers for years. Despite his excellent shot and speed even toughness, his low hockey IQ and inability to cut down his gaffes have made me doubt him. Can't remember the poster who even suggested a couple of years ago Dumba would be the Wild's #1 d-man.

 

Still even Suter is better than Dumba with his half-a$$ effort. Dumba facing the opponent's top line night and day? Recipe for disaster. (although as I write, Dumba apparently was the Wild's best d-man against the Kings)

 

$6 mil. a year to a 2nd pair d-man who's defensively so-and-so, offensively nothing special. Sounds steep. The Wild need more of a fast #1 line center than an ordinary 2nd pair d-man. The way things are going, the Wild are not going get that center via draft.

 

I tend to use that phrase a lot I guess, If that's what you mean.  

But yeah, Look at our recent history. The next season is a dud.

But I'd understand no matter how you try to continue your life the same, A sudden influx of $ will make you feel comfortable in some ways and will change how you play/Do your job.

 

I wouldn't say Dumba was that much better last night. But yeah after LA's 1st goal early, On their next rush in Suter was coasting down the middle of our zone and watching the play, Oblivious to (his man) LA's RT Winger absolutely open... Didn't get the puck or it would've been 2-0 early.

As usual Brodin was steady. Unlike most the other D's with their glaring up's and Downs.

 

Now that I get to see games a bit more, What's the general opinion on Hartman??

[IllaZilla]

18 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

It was amazing after only having that 1 breakout season that he was given this contract.

The only thing offsetting his defensive errors last year was the scoring. He's on pace for what? 10 this year?!

Maybe it's contract signing hangover but I'd trade him or (if possible) expose him to the draft.

There's nothing telling me he's the next Burns like so many think.

 

 

Actually, Dumba's contract isn't that out of line with other young defensemen in the league. It compares favorably with the Blues Colton Parayko (signed 2017, age 24, $5.5M AAV), the Stars Esa Lindell (signed 2019, age 25, $5.8M AAV), the Avs Tyson Barrie (signed 2016, age 24, $5.5M AAV) and the Wild's own Jared Spurgeon (signed 2015, age 26, $5.187 AAV).  He's played more games (310) than three of the four at the point of the signing (Spurgeon has him at 329). He's scored more points (128) than three out of the four (Barrie has him with 153. Spurgeon had 115,  Parayko has 68 and Lindell 77).

 

Dumba has shown steady offensive improvement. 2015-16, 81 games, 26 points. 2016-17, 76 games, 34 points. 2017-18, 82 games, 50 points. This season he's played 18 games and has 8 points (3g, 5a). Extrapolated out over a full season that's 36 points (14g, 22a). Not fifty points, but not too shabby.

 

Burns scored 27 points with the Wild when he was 23. Dumba scored 50. Both Burns and Dumba are turnover machines (roughly a 1 takeaway to 2 giveaway ratio)

 

The year Burns was traded to San Jose (2012) he signed a contract extension for five years at $5.76M AAV ($28M total) after scoring 46 points for the Wild the year before.

 

[ClusterChuck]

40 minutes ago, IllaZilla said:

 

Actually, Dumba's contract isn't that out of line with other young defensemen in the league. It compares favorably with the Blues Colton Parayko (signed 2017, age 24, $5.5M AAV), the Stars Esa Lindell (signed 2019, age 25, $5.8M AAV), the Avs Tyson Barrie (signed 2016, age 24, $5.5M AAV) and the Wild's own Jared Spurgeon (signed 2015, age 26, $5.187 AAV).  He's played more games (310) than three of the four at the point of the signing (Spurgeon has him at 329). He's scored more points (128) than three out of the four (Barrie has him with 153. Spurgeon had 115,  Parayko has 68 and Lindell 77).

 

 

I'm not disputing the $ amounts. That's the market. 

Point is 1 good season and Payday?!?

At least Spurgeon has shown his worth for many seasons.

The rest you mentioned , We're they 1 season wonders before their payday contract.?

[CreaseAndAssist]

14 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

Relax, I just threw it out there. Nothing much else to discuss in here.

 

Losses? Lack of effort? Poor PP? Anchor contracts the Wild can't get rid of? GM who does nothing? The owner, living in his fantasy world? None of the prospects showing development?

 

I think we've covered all of those already.

 

I think some prospects are developing well.  Duhaime is impressing a lot of people in Iowa.  And Khovanov seems to be coming along nicely too.  Sam Hentges is having a great start in St. Cloud this season too.  Menell is steady eddy also with the baby Wild.  

Edited November 13, 2019 by CreaseAndAssist

[CreaseAndAssist]

4 hours ago, ClusterChuck said:

I've never been a fan of 'Tanking' for the sake of 'A possibility' of a #1 pick. 2009 Edm sucked  got the top pick and that turned it all around. 

That 1 good player led the to.......Another #1 pick next year....And now they have 2 and Edm is on it's way to..........A 3rd straight #1 pick.

So what if we got a good pick. We'd still have basically the same group around him if we don't start dismantling certain parts that we can.

 

Let's say there's a problem in your house's wall. Dumba is like the wet or cracked drywall. Not the main problem, But you have to remove him to get in deeper. And as suspected your foundation is old and not functioning properly.

"Tweaks" were Fletch and Fenton's go-to...I have to hope Guerin isn't going that route and actually has a build plan in mind.

 

I tend to use that phrase a lot I guess, If that's what you mean.  

But yeah, Look at our recent history. The next season is a dud.

But I'd understand no matter how you try to continue your life the same, A sudden influx of $ will make you feel comfortable in some ways and will change how you play/Do your job.

 

I wouldn't say Dumba was that much better last night. But yeah after LA's 1st goal early, On their next rush in Suter was coasting down the middle of our zone and watching the play, Oblivious to (his man) LA's RT Winger absolutely open... Didn't get the puck or it would've been 2-0 early.

As usual Brodin was steady. Unlike most the other D's with their glaring up's and Downs.

 

Now that I get to see games a bit more, What's the general opinion on Hartman??

 

Hartman is kind of a conundrum.  He has moments where he makes smart plays and then makes real poor choices.  In some ways he reminds me of Ryan White, in terms of the agitator type of player.  But I also kind of hoped he'd chip in more offensively.  

[Hockey-78]

4 minutes ago, CreaseAndAssist said:

 

I think some prospects are developing well.  Duhaime is impressing a lot of people in Iowa.  And Khovanov seems to be coming along nicely too.  Sam Hentges is having a great start in St. Cloud this season too.  Menell is steady eddy also with the baby Wild.  

If you say so. I was thinking more of the types of prospects that could be top6 caliber already. Like Yamamoto in the Oilers. Kind of thin on that front for the Wild, huh?

 

Seems to me that almost every other NHL team has some under 20 year old prospect ready and competing hard night and day except the Wild. Now they are even screwing up Kunin too. Might be wrong...

[Hockey-78]

Flyers fans seem to be keen reading the Wild board:

[TropicalFruitGirl26]

6 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Flyers fans seem to be keen reading the Wild board:

 

Pretty much how this site is.... lots of overall hockey fans here who do read into what other teams are doing or offer commentary on things outside their own team.

Granted, some takes aren't as informed, understandable because they don't follow that other team as closely as their own, but that's ok.
Some fans of their OWN teams aren't as informed as they think they are either.

Why it's always a good idea to have a broader reading spectrum when it comes to the states of various teams or communicate with others of a team on isn't as familiar with.