tucson83 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 20 hours ago, King Knut said: I think you missed my point. They're winning. They're currently on pace for 100 points. Usually my measure of a captain (especially of a somewhat talented team) is whether they're winning. They're winning. He's doing his job. I want goals, you want goals, I'm sure he wants goals. I want wins more and I think he's doing what the coach wants him to. he's bad enough where you are down a goal or two, it's guarantee this team will lose because he wont step up. if look at this team when they had lindros and john c, you wouldnt have to worry about whether you are down a goal or not because they will always step up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, tucson83 said: he's bad enough where you are down a goal or two, it's guarantee this team will lose because he wont step up. if look at this team when they had lindros and john c, you wouldnt have to worry about whether you are down a goal or not because they will always step up. yeah they won a lot of cups. Just going to say the Lindros era doesn't help make your point, at all. Lindros was the consensus #1 pick; teams traded years of picks and players to get him. I can't think of a bigger failure as far as not living up to the fan bases' expectations. To be clear I enjoyed his teams and the time he played here and I don't think of him as a failure, before he had all of his injuries he was something. However he won as many cups as Giroux. Maybe go back further to the Poulin era ? his teams were truly greater than the sum of their parts, but again...they didn't win either but I remember thinking they might which I didn't think when they made the finals with Lindros. Edited February 5, 2020 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: However he won as many cups as Giroux. I get your point, but I don't think that the Giroux conversation is anywhere near the same if Giroux was a point per playoff game player on a consistent playoff team with a couple of Conference Finals and a Cup Final in the past seven years instead of three playoff years and zero playoff round wins - the last two putting up four points in 12 games. It's not all his fault. But it wasn't all Eric's fault, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 1 minute ago, radoran said: I get your point, but I don't think that the Giroux conversation is anywhere near the same if Giroux was a point per playoff game player on a consistent playoff team with a couple of Conference Finals and a Cup Final in the past seven years instead of three playoff years and zero playoff round wins - the last two putting up four points in 12 games. It's not all his fault. But it wasn't all Eric's fault, either. I understand this. But would like to add... the Lindros era teams were a lot deeper than the Giroux led teams. Eric wasn't dragging around, Jordan Weal, Matt Read, Dale Weisse, Will O'Neil, 2000 year old Johnny Oduya. That's just from the last time the team was good enough to make the playoffs, I'm sure if I look back even further I'll find some other gems. Giroux's prime has been wasted by negligence (chasing Parise and Suter when they said we're not interested in Phi) and then a "non-rebuild- rebuild" during that time the fact the team made the playoffs at all felt like an accomplishment. You and I have had this discussion the VeeGee years teams were in fact terrible and the VeeGee's masked the smell or at least made it smell like citrus-y pooh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: the Lindros era teams were a lot deeper than the Giroux led teams. I think I pretty clearly enunciated that caveat: 29 minutes ago, radoran said: It's not all his fault. And if there's someone that I wish would have absolutely nothing at all to do with this organization anymore it's Paul Holmgren. Edited February 5, 2020 by radoran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 @radoran what no love for citrus-y pooh...that's gold right there- and you just blew past it. sad face emoji. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 Just now, mojo1917 said: @radoran what no love for citrus-y pooh...that's gold right there- and you just blew past it. sad face emoji. I'm at work... I'll give Giroux credit. I put Voracek more into the "pooh" category - and not in the hummy Pooh way but more in the consistency of pooh way... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 35 minutes ago, radoran said: I get your point, but I don't think that the Giroux conversation is anywhere near the same if Giroux was a point per playoff game player on a consistent playoff team with a couple of Conference Finals and a Cup Final in the past seven years instead of three playoff years and zero playoff round wins - the last two putting up four points in 12 games. It's not all his fault. But it wasn't all Eric's fault, either. We have to keep in mind during the Lindros era and most of the Giroux era we had a carousel of horrible goaltending and we lacked depth on defense. We ran Desjardins into the ground and later Timmonen. We always relied way too much on one defenseman. Today we have the most potential on the blueline we have ever had and also in goal. " I look around this room and I see alot of potential.... you have potential and you have potential...." 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 5, 2020 Share Posted February 5, 2020 8 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: " I look around this room and I see alot of potential.... you have potential and you have potential...." ISWYDT In all seriousness, I agree with you that there is a ton more potential on the back end and in goal than we've seen in... 20 years? Wow, wait, Lindros was 20-27 years ago... I'm old... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 19 hours ago, RonJeremy said: We have to keep in mind during the Lindros era and most of the Giroux era we had a carousel of horrible goaltending and we lacked depth on defense. We ran Desjardins into the ground and later Timmonen. We always relied way too much on one defenseman. Today we have the most potential on the blueline we have ever had and also in goal. " I look around this room and I see alot of potential.... you have potential and you have potential...." The Giroux era was screwed from the beginning. I think we assume it starts with the Richards and Carter trades and that's when Homer essentially ruined the team for the next 6 years. There was a snowball's chance at the borders of hell with Pronger, but when he went down, everything between then and now was inevitable. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted February 6, 2020 Share Posted February 6, 2020 1 hour ago, King Knut said: The Giroux era was screwed from the beginning. I think we assume it starts with the Richards and Carter trades and that's when Homer essentially ruined the team for the next 6 years. There was a snowball's chance at the borders of hell with Pronger, but when he went down, everything between then and now was inevitable. I agree, once we lost Prongs that was it, and Timmo was getting old, the defense was pathetic, goaltending was a joke. I think Homer knew we are in a decline. In the long run we were better off trading those guys. Richards became a pill addict when he got shoulder surgery and we were lucky to unload him when we did. He was washed up at 27. We got back some good players , drafted Coots and turned Schenn into a couple of great picks. Looking ahead, we could really use a consistent scorer, I guess time will tell if we will get one in a trade or FA next year. We have some vood young players but definitely a bunch of question marks wirh Patrick and Lindblom. On a good note , considering how young our defenseman are, they are playing solid defensively. Once Sanheim and Meyers gain confidence and experience they could both become dominant offensive forces, they have all the tools. Hart looks like the real deal, what we need most is a consistent scoring threat. G, JVR and Jake are very streaky. We need the younger guys to step up as these guys fade out. TK should become our top offensive guy and he always hustles. We have to hope that our top offensive prospects, Farabee ,Frost and Allison can be contributing on a higher level next year. If Lindblom and Patrick come back, we have the potential to score some goals. I still think the most pressing need for this team is a hard nosed leader with grit and scoring ability who can keep the Tom Wilsons of the league from hammering our guys. Allison fits that mold, hopefully he can become that player for us. We still have Ghost as a trading chip to improve the team,if the right deal comes along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 2/6/2020 at 12:14 PM, RonJeremy said: I agree, once we lost Prongs that was it, and Timmo was getting old, the defense was pathetic, goaltending was a joke. I think Homer knew we are in a decline. In the long run we were better off trading those guys. Richards became a pill addict when he got shoulder surgery and we were lucky to unload him when we did. He was washed up at 27. We got back some good players , drafted Coots and turned Schenn into a couple of great picks. Looking ahead, we could really use a consistent scorer, I guess time will tell if we will get one in a trade or FA next year. We have some vood young players but definitely a bunch of question marks wirh Patrick and Lindblom. On a good note , considering how young our defenseman are, they are playing solid defensively. Once Sanheim and Meyers gain confidence and experience they could both become dominant offensive forces, they have all the tools. Hart looks like the real deal, what we need most is a consistent scoring threat. G, JVR and Jake are very streaky. We need the younger guys to step up as these guys fade out. TK should become our top offensive guy and he always hustles. We have to hope that our top offensive prospects, Farabee ,Frost and Allison can be contributing on a higher level next year. If Lindblom and Patrick come back, we have the potential to score some goals. I still think the most pressing need for this team is a hard nosed leader with grit and scoring ability who can keep the Tom Wilsons of the league from hammering our guys. Allison fits that mold, hopefully he can become that player for us. We still have Ghost as a trading chip to improve the team,if the right deal comes along. I don't believe Homer had any idea what he was doing. I reallly don't. My most generous guess is that snider really was pulling strings without Homer knowing. Either that or Homer really did have a stroke in 2012. Richards was likely a burgeoning pill addict before he left and he likely became one by doing things like going through the playoffs with two shoulder tears and stuff like that. I couldn't believe when Lombardi tried to get out of his contract without any kind of a payoff because it literally opened the Kings and the Flyers up to a very dangerous, public and ugly legal battle. This is likely why the whole thing was quietly handled out of the headlines. Both teams were likely guilty (and probably still are) of over prescribing and making way too available the likes of the kind of Oxy that Richards get stopped with. My guess is that if had never been traded and was still the team captain in Philly, there would likely have been closer tabs being kept on him and his treatment. As it was in LA, he was important to their success, but not their star. All that aside, I would gladly take a washed up, Pill addicted Richards at 27 if it meant winning two Stanley Cups in between. Wouldn't you? He wasn't even making 6 million. Besides, they could have bought him out instead of Bryz and Briere if he wasn't paying dividends. That's not hindsight either, it was pretty well known there would be complicity buyouts offered well before that CBA was inked. Anyway, I'm not here to re-litigate those trades, I just think trading them was a move toward rebuilding and signing Bryz was not. What Hextall did with Simmer was amazing and almost criminal and what he did with Schenn was fantastic for both teams in the end... but again... the Flyers "win" a trade where the other team wins a cup. Kinda sick of trying to sell myself that scenario. The Flyers definitively destroyed in the Richards trade though. Jake and Coots for Carter is an utterly fantastic return. No matter what anyone says about his time in Philly, if you watched the Kings win those cups, you know full well that Carter was also huge in those cup teams for the Kings and is still one of their key players, but if you guys hate Jake as much as you do, imagine if you were still watching Jeff Carter. You'd all be dead of hate fueled heart attacks by now. Most teams in this league could use a consistent scorer. The Flyers aren't likely to get a decent scorer in FA. There simply isn't the cap room. They can't trade Hayes for a few years (have to protect him in the Seattle draft too). The best option would be to try to trade JVR before UFA season opens. That's not as crazy as it sounds actually. The fact of the matter is there's an expansion draft coming that JVR can be exposed for and if they don't lockout, there are likely complicity buyouts coming with the new CBA. So a team trading for JVR could consider him essentially having 1-2 years remaining on his contract instead of 3. Of course JVR is on pace for 24 goals again this year, so you have to make sure you get someone who will do better than that and any team that can afford to pay JVR 7million could also likely take a crack at the same player. Which brings us back to Ghost. I really think I like the Johnson / Kapanen idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 On 2/6/2020 at 12:14 PM, RonJeremy said: Looking ahead, we could really use a consistent scorer, I guess time will tell if we will get one in a trade or FA next year. We have some vood young players but definitely a bunch of question marks wirh Patrick and Lindblom. On a good note , considering how young our defenseman are, they are playing solid defensively. Once Sanheim and Meyers gain confidence and experience they could both become dominant offensive forces, they have all the tools. Hart looks like the real deal, what we need most is a consistent scoring threat. G, JVR and Jake are very streaky. We need the younger guys to step up as these guys fade out. TK should become our top offensive guy and he always hustles. UFA's this summer are big and they will be expensive: Taylor Hall & Mikko Rantanen will both fetch $10million. Mikko is likely worth it. Taylor not so much. For the Flyers that means unloading JVR and Ghost. Next tier includes Ryan Hugent Hopkins and Mike Hoffman. They're both likely in the 8 million range at least. I wouldn't mind a guy like Chris Kreider and we've already talked about Toffoli and Pageau, but they're all in that range we know so well where they're going to make too much money too far past their peek years with their next contracts... but they are kinda what the team needs most I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 7 minutes ago, King Knut said: Mikko Rantanen will both fetch $10million Rantanen re-signed for $9.25 at the start of this season. It's one reason he had a slow start and then had a little injury bug at the beginning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted February 11, 2020 Share Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, radoran said: Rantanen re-signed for $9.25 at the start of this season. It's one reason he had a slow start and then had a little injury bug at the beginning. For some reason I thought that was a one year deal to get him to play. My bad! I don't care for Hall and I don't want to overpay for the others past their usefullness (again). I like ironing out a trade for Kapanen or Johnson, or another similarly contracted player or RFA. Toronto will want Myers or Sanheim, but Toronto might not be in such a great bargaining position when they miss the playoffs and go into the off season with one D man under contract. And I don't mean it has to be GHost... but it's probably Ghost plus or Hagg plus MORE. Edited February 11, 2020 by King Knut Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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