Game 25: New Jersey Devils at Philadelphia Flyers; 12/3/22 @ 7 PM, NBCSP

[radoran]

41 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Only ~20 games in but we’re stating to get an idea of who won’t or can’t meet this basic level of effort and sacrifice. As the roster gets pruned the guys who remain, who fought through this messy year will have that T-E-A-M identity instilled in them and they’ll naturally demand the same from new players coming in.  

 

I'm curious at what point during the longest-term captain's tenure that this this "team culture" disappeared.

 

To be clear, I get it. I do. It is important.

 

But that it's the point where this "definitely a playoff team" for the past decade finds itself it revealing in terms of what has caused the disaffection of a not insignificant portion of the fanbase to want to look at 3-2 losses as a "good thing."

 

Again, have at it. I'm not trying to bring you down. I'm expressing where I'm at.

 

And a "top effort" against a division rival that was at the same bottom point the Flyers were and find themselves 20 points ahead in the standings, and an "effort" that resulted in a loss isn't exactly going to swing my attention back to the day-to-day of a bunch of borderline NHL players.

 

[GratefulFlyers]

12 hours ago, radoran said:

Again, have at it. I'm not trying to bring you down. I'm expressing where I'm at.

 

Sure I know. And I'm not trying to convince you to watch. But isn't it ironic that Flyers' fans who've been clamoring for a rebuild now refuse to watch it happen?

 

I can sympathize with a lot when it comes to following the Flyers. And going into this year felt like the last straw. We knew Fletcher's awful trades would be highlighted even more with all the injuries. And then there's Comcast, which from all reports has zero interest in the Flyers and even less in their fan base. So I don't blame anyone for tuning out, least of all long-time, die-hard fans on this board.

 

All I'd say is - tune back in once in awhile you may be surprised (in a good way).

 

 

 

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Sure I know. And I'm not trying to convince you to watch. But isn't it ironic that Flyers' fans who've been clamoring for a rebuild now refuse to watch it happen?

 

Right, but this isn't "the rebuild" - the GM is still out there talking about being "five points out of a playoff spot." Which was true at the time, and is now eight points with six teams ahead of them, three with games in hand.

 

When you have more than 50% of your cap assessed to nine players for the next two years, and another $14M in questionable IR space for two more you're not "setting the floor" for a rebuild.

 

I honestly don't need to watch a terrible team be terrible to know that they're terrible. I've checked into games now and again. It's just not compelling.

 

As the song says give me a reason to care and I'll sing along forever.

[GratefulFlyers]

Yes indeed it’s only a rebuild bc that’s how Tortorella and his assistants are approaching it. A few times I’ve heard Fletcher admit that the Flyers are in an assessment year, and not to expect too much. Other times as you noted he’s just clueless, blaming the sorry state of the team mostly on injuries.

[radoran]

19 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Other times as you noted he’s just clueless, blaming the sorry state of the team mostly on injuries.

 

The injuries sure don't help. But they are more of a fig leaf covering over the problem.

 

Even if you put Atkinson, Couturier, and Elllis into this lineup "fully healthy" they're not really in a position to threaten the top teams in the league and are back to being the middling, bubble playoff team they've been for ten years.

 

The problems are many, but it's the main philosophy - expressed by Scott and enacted by Fletcher - of "spending to the cap" as if that's some sort of award that keeps biting them, especially in a "rebuild" context.

 

This team is one of the worst in the league and is capped out (they do have some IR space). They're spending $86 million to look this bad.

 

There are fifteen guys signed for next season and they're opening about $8M in cap space and that's Fletcher's club with JVR the last Hextall signing on the roster.

 

I'm hoping for some major surgery, but they keep giving me aspirin. Until Something Big happens, I'm afraid this really isn't going to change much at all.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

But isn't it ironic that Flyers' fans who've been clamoring for a rebuild now refuse to watch it happen?

 

As a married man with 11 year old daughter and needy wife very hard for me to argue for time away from them to watch garbage and i don't know any other way to say it.

 

The wife and i have so many shows to catch up on and i work 12 hour days gone from 6 am till 7:30 well just not very much time to dish out and be in bed by 11:30pm.

 

So yeah and then when i do have time to do whatever i can not very find much motivation for me to try and sit and watch them i have tired.

 

I have watch parts of more games this year because i have the Disney/Hulu bundle so get EPSN+ for free till end of year. And well i have yet to sit and finish a game they just don't compel me to do so i can sit through about 20 minutes and i have had enough.

 

Have i picked a bad 20 minutes to watch a few times - quite possibly but still i check in time to time check a score board and keep stepping.

 

I will watch like goal scoring highlights like on twitter but yeah about it... and some big saves from here to there from Hart but yep about it.

 

It is on the Flyer to get us back interested in them....kind of like Eagles Howie Roseman has been put to task to do and well has knock it out of the park so far that when he can tell fans "F-U-C-K YOU" and they cheer you are doing good and loved.

 

Chuck Fletcher is on the complete other side of that spectrum with the Flyers...

 

...i do really wish for it to change by the end of the year even it is just Chuck out the door it will feel like progress and then i have hope that Hayes and Risto too might join him very soon.

 

All we have is hope. 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by OccamsRazor
#boubonup

[GratefulFlyers]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

Until Something Big happens, I'm afraid this really isn't going to change much at all.

 

Realistically speaking I think there's two Big Things that might happen soon, 1) Fletcher gets axed and/or 2) Comcast sells the team. Whoever Frank Seravalli is (writes Flyers' articles that's all I know) he says it's only a question of when Comcast pulls the trigger. Neither one does much for the team this year but they'd both be welcome signs of change.

 

But I'm not convinced a major shakeup is a precondition for the Flyers to be competitive again - and not of the silly "Anything-Can-Happen" variety. The more I watch Tortorella's pressers the more I trust he knows what he's doing, particularly his player evaluations. But so what, right? We've had good coaches before.

 

The "so what" is that if - and granted it's a big "if" - if the GM takes Tortorella's advice re: personnel changes the Flyers could conceivably ice a competitive team as soon as next year. I'm sure Tortorella believes that the question is are Clarke et al on board. If they are I think that would qualify as a #3 Something Big.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by GratefulFlyers

[radoran]

1 hour ago, GratefulFlyers said:

if the GM takes Tortorella's advice re: personnel changes the Flyers could conceivably ice a competitive team as soon as next year.

 

From your keyboard to God's screen...

 

I can already see them using injuries and Covid as the "reason" to give ol' Fletch another shot.

 

To be clear, if all of the things you mention happen - and I honestly don't see why Comcast would sell the Flyers, but stranger things... - then it might be a more interesting thing to watch.

 

(I don't think "Comcast" is "the problem" as much as they made a bad choice in Dave Scott. And the team is basically a cash cow for them.)

[OccamsRazor]

8 minutes ago, radoran said:

I can already see them using injuries and Covid as the "reason" to give ol' Fletch another shot.

 

 

 

[SCFlyguy]

6 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

The "so what" is that if - and granted it's a big "if" - if the GM takes Tortorella's advice re: personnel changes the Flyers could conceivably ice a competitive team as soon as next year. I'm sure Tortorella believes that the question is are Clarke et al on board. If they are I think that would qualify as a #3 Something Big.

A thousand GMs executing a thousand different scenarios couldn’t find one to make them competitive next year.  Getting to a Wild Card and losing in the first or second round isn’t competitive and I think there is zero chance of even that.

[mojo1917]

13 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Getting to a Wild Card and losing in the first or second round isn’t competitive and I think there is zero chance of even that.

Going to pick a straw here and say if the team we're "imagining" has young guys, with some skill, playing competitive hockey and they reach the playoffs, it's not a bad thing.

 

What would stink, and I think you're envisioning ,is if Couturier, Atkins, JvR, Ristolainen and the cadre of mediocrity is the squad making a playoff run.

That team has a limited ceiling and wouldn't be competing for a championship. That team maxes out in the 2nd round and is not a cause for hope.

 

If the team was young and developing, that's a different story. 

It's probably not happening next year, but it's not inconceivable that it couldn't happen in 3 years, and by that, I mean a team of young players making the playoffs and the fanbase can see where there is hope.

 

[radoran]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Couturier, Atkins, JvR, Ristolainen and the cadre of mediocrity is the squad making a playoff run.

That team has a limited ceiling and wouldn't be competing for a championship

 

3/4 of those guys you mention are under contract for at least the next 2 seasons...

 

The primary hope right now is a hit in the lottery and a couple prospects breaking through. Couturier coming back as a semblance of the player he was. And an effective free agent/trade splash.

 

What's not to like?

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by radoran

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

3/4 of those guys you mention are under contract for at least the next 2 seasons...

 

 

[mojo1917]

3 hours ago, radoran said:

3/4 of those guys you mention are under contract for at least the next 2 seasons...

Yes, you are correct.

 

In my mind I've moved on from them.

 

In Mojo world those mother****ers are playing for some other team or on some other continent.

[radoran]

57 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

In my mind I've moved on from them.

 

Ah, yes, I am familiar with this. In my experience they tend to stick around after I've moved on. It is most frustrating.

 

[flyercanuck]

On 12/5/2022 at 10:08 AM, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Sure I know. And I'm not trying to convince you to watch. But isn't it ironic that Flyers' fans who've been clamoring for a rebuild now refuse to watch it happen?

 

I can sympathize with a lot when it comes to following the Flyers. And going into this year felt like the last straw. We knew Fletcher's awful trades would be highlighted even more with all the injuries. And then there's Comcast, which from all reports has zero interest in the Flyers and even less in their fan base. So I don't blame anyone for tuning out, least of all long-time, die-hard fans on this board.

 

All I'd say is - tune back in once in awhile you may be surprised (in a good way).

 

 

 

 

Come on man...There is no rebuild happening. It's Haysees team with his buddies plodding and losing all the way to their overstuffed bank accounts. 

A rebuild would mean we're trading off all these stiffs for any draft picks or prospects we can get. Fletchers already thrown away our 2nd and 3rd picks this year. We have 5 over 30 year old players on the team, and the sad part is Fletcher acquired ALL OF THEM. We have 2 -29 year olds, and Fletcher brought them in too. And a 28 year old. So the when your present GM has brought in then 8 oldest guys on the team, and traded away A LOT of your draft picks....ya, that's not how rebuilds work. 

 

And it isn't. 

 

edit: I see rad already touched on this.

Edited December 6, 2022 by flyercanuck

[GratefulFlyers]

All I can say is watch a few games. The product on the ice is worlds better than it was last year. Already. The rebuild is happening in the locker room, in the video sessions in practices and in the games. All despite the terrible management.
 

Will it last and turn into a genuine rebuild where the old slugs get moved and we acquire back some picks? I doubt it unless Fletcher gets gone. But in the meantime Tortorella’s getting more than I ever thought possible with what he’s got. He’s laying the foundation. The suits may come along and blow it up but if they don’t… 
 

On a different note I wasn’t trying nitpick re: TDA (in a different thread I think). But he has been playing well for the Flyers this year. Plus/minus means less than nothing this year on the Flyers. Lately he’s been struggling so a few games back Tortorella took him off the top pair. But all in all he’s been good. Not OMG Great, certainly not a foundational piece. But good enough. And sure I know his history it’s probably just a matter of time before he does something stupid, embarrassing himself and the team. But maybe not. For the time being his salary isn’t outrageous and Lehigh doesn’t have anyone ready so it’s not like he’s blocking a prospect. Nobody else wants him anyway lol - so what the hell, at least he’s better than I thought he’d be. 

[SCFlyguy]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:57 PM, GratefulFlyers said:

All I can say is watch a few games. The product on the ice is worlds better than it was last year. Already. The rebuild is happening in the locker room, in the video sessions in practices and in the games. All despite the terrible management.

The team hasn’t even bottomed out yet.  It’s going to get worse before it gets better.

[radoran]

15 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

The team hasn’t even bottomed out yet.  It’s going to get worse before it gets better.

 

To be honest watching the games even the little that I have it is a different product. Not a winning product. But it's not the predictable bullhockey we've been served for 10 years.

 

Some of that is that there are a bunch of guys who are borderline NHLers who are getting chances to play for a guy who rewards effort and they're giving the effort.

 

But even the coach admits they just don't have the horses to compete.

 

So it's more entertaining to watch on small doses.

 

I still don't think I can do a whole game. Or even plan to.

Edited December 8, 2022 by radoran

[GratefulFlyers]

I guess it would be hard to watch a "when game" but thankfully I don't know what that is...

[radoran]

23 minutes ago, GratefulFlyers said:

I guess it would be hard to watch a "when game" but thankfully I don't know what that is...

 

It's when autocorrect changes whole to when