honest question: why briere?

[CoachX]

On 12/27/2022 at 11:48 AM, GrittyForever said:

There are candidates and possibles and even some veterans but nobody who is a sure thing slam dunk. So Briere is as good a choice as any of them. 

I cant agree with this. Im sure there is a list of guys with better qualifications than Briere. Just becasue you can't name one, doesnt mean they should go the one you can

[GrittyForever]

5 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I cant agree with this. Im sure there is a list of guys with better qualifications than Briere. Just becasue you can't name one, doesnt mean they should go the one you can

People  like to say this, but none of them can produce that mythical list. 

 

If you do make a list like that it'll have Fletchers on it too.

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, GrittyForever said:

I really don't think Briere is that kind of guy

Based on what, how he played?

 

Isn't this resetting the basic question this thread is all about?

[radoran]

12 minutes ago, CoachX said:

I cant agree with this. Im sure there is a list of guys with better qualifications than Briere. Just becasue you can't name one, doesnt mean they should go the one you can

 

The only possibly qualified candidate for a general manager position in the NHL is Danny Briere.

 

The Flyers are just lucky they got him first. No one else will be able to hire a new GM after Briere as there will be no qualified candidates anywhere in all of professional hockey.

 

It's Danny Briere or they keep Fletch. That's it. Make your pick.

 

[CoachX]

2 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

People  like to say this, but none of them can produce that mythical list. 

 

If you do make a list like that it'll have Fletchers on it too.

John Ferguson Jr., Boston Bruins assistant general manager

Chris MacFarland, Colorado Avalanche assistant general manager

Scott Mellanby, Montreal Canadiens assistant general manager (former Flyer...disqualified)

Kevin Weekes, NHL Network analyst

Mathieu Darche, Tampa Bay Lightning director of hockey operations

 

There's a list. It appears most have had significant roles as at the NHL level for sustained periods. I think that makes for a better candidate than one who was just "groomed" by Holmgren

 

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

 

The only possibly qualified candidate for a general manager position in the NHL is Danny Briere.

 

The Flyers are just lucky they got him first. No one else will be able to hire a new GM after Briere as there will be no qualified candidates anywhere in all of professional hockey.

 

It's Danny Briere or they keep Fletch. That's it. Make your pick.

 

Damnit! Now you've put me to it. I choose....... can I think about it for a few seasons while I watch the REACHER series over and over and over again?

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Damnit! Now you've put me to it. I choose....... can I think about it for a few seasons while I watch the REACHER series over and over and over again?

 

Look, if three random people on an obscure message board can't come up with more names than a professional NHL hockey franchise when it comes to a search for a general manager, it's all over. There are no more answers.

 

Danny Briere is the only possible person who could follow Chuck Fletcher.

 

Anything else is just foolish.

[ruxpin]

5 hours ago, CoachX said:

stop typing things I don't understand!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Better?

[aziz]

3 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

So basically, if I have this right, you're afraid that Briere would be a "yes man" and just hired as a front and all the real decisions would be made by Paul and/or Bob? That it? 

If so, ya, always possible. I really don't think Briere is that kind of guy, but pay someone enough money maybe they sell out their own values so anything is possible but I doubt it. 

 

Well, yeah.  Random person looking for a job after their previous career ends.  A group of people for whom he'd worked in that previous career say, "hey, come on, we'll hook you up."  He has no experience or qualifications, other than this particular group of people like him.  They give him a series of jobs, of increasing importance.  They teach him the ins and outs of these new jobs, passing their values and priorities on to him.  He moves on to those new and more important positions based on how well he satisfies their expectations, how fully he embodies and implements their values and priorities.  All within the philosophical rubric of that group of people.

 

So, now, he is being considered for possibly the most important job available.  He is, again, no doubt being considered based on his proven ability to participate in the conversations they want to have, endorse the perspectives and parameters they value. 

 

He isn't in the equation because he keeps rocking the boat.  I feel like that's just obvious.  So far, his advancement has been entirely at the discretion of Flyers' executive management.  Executives who delegate these kinds of things to Assistants to the General Manager, as a matter of course.  He has operated in and incorporated their approach and philosophy.  The approach and philosophy that has been, frankly, meme-worthy for a decade plus.  But here he is, the heir apparent, as suggested by The Powers That Be within the Flyers.  Which is to say, Booby Clarke and Paul Holmgren.

You think a directional change comes from that?  You think, "No, we are not doing it the way we have always done anymore; we are carving a new path, a path that takes into the account the smaller, faster, more skilled/less in-your-face style the game requires in the modern age" comes from a person Bob and Paul have specifically groomed from the very beginning of his post-player career?

 

No.  It does not.  IF, and double up on the all caps, IF Briere were to do un-Flyer-like things once he assumes the mantle, he'd be fired.  Just as Hextall was.  Not making deals for short term gains that will at least (and only) put the Flyers in the playoff picture is unacceptable.  Even if those deals would hurt the team badly for years to come.  Not being in the conversation for every high value (and high price tag) FA is unacceptable.  Even if the player does not fit the Flyers' situation or roster, and the required cap hit and term would again cripple the team for years.

If Briere took the reigns and declined to chase expiring FAs with picks and prospects at every deadline, passed on making offers to standout FAs regardless of their fit with the rest of the roster, etc, etc, etc, he'd be fired.  Again, we've seen this.  We've seen that GMs hired with the approval of Bobby and Paul see the axe fall quickly if they don't do exactly the same thing all of the other Flyers' GMs have done.  Briere would be particularly vulnerable, as he has no resume at all, other than what Bobby and Paul have given him.  He gets fired as the Flyers' GM, that career is over.  He better tow the line.

 

What needs to happen is someone from Comcast Spectator needs to step in and say, "you all are insane.  Not to mention shockingly incompetent.  Bob and Paul, you can keep your salaries, maybe, but please sit in the corner and eat potato chips, and be quiet.  You, too, Barber.  Why are you even here?  Anyway, XYZ is your new General Manager, as hired directly by Comcast Spectator, and he answers to us, not you.  Your input is not wanted or welcomed.  Push me, and I take that salary I just promised away.  Be good puppies, and lick your food bowls.  You don't deserve them, and haven't for literally 40 years.  Be thankful, and for fcuk's sake be quiet"

 

Briere can only be more of the same.  Because he was literally created by more of the same.  And I mean no particular disrespect to Briere himself.  He's just a guy with zero leverage, he'd have no choice but to do what he was told.  The Flyers NEED someone that is allowed to say, "no, this has been a stupid and destructive approach for decades, and stops now."  That definitionally requires telling Bob and Paul they have been horrifically wrong for decades.  

 

Think Briere can say that to their faces and keep his job?

[SCFlyguy]

7 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

By "like it was" I'm only referring to work ethic and character and the type of players he'd want on the roster. An identity for the team we've lacked for a while now. 

Oh, god, now I have to hear about Little Danny Briere's "work ethic" and "character".  How come that work ethic and character didn't prevent him from taking a hooking penalty every time he lost a puck battle below the goal line in the offensive zone?

 

I guess emotional and lazy is sort of a kind of work ethic and character.

[CoachX]

16 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Better?

I still don't get it

[CoachX]

16 hours ago, aziz said:

 

Well, yeah.  Random person looking for a job after their previous career ends.  A group of people for whom he'd worked in that previous career say, "hey, come on, we'll hook you up."  He has no experience or qualifications, other than this particular group of people like him.  They give him a series of jobs, of increasing importance.  They teach him the ins and outs of these new jobs, passing their values and priorities on to him.  He moves on to those new and more important positions based on how well he satisfies their expectations, how fully he embodies and implements their values and priorities.  All within the philosophical rubric of that group of people.

 

So, now, he is being considered for possibly the most important job available.  He is, again, no doubt being considered based on his proven ability to participate in the conversations they want to have, endorse the perspectives and parameters they value. 

 

He isn't in the equation because he keeps rocking the boat.  I feel like that's just obvious.  So far, his advancement has been entirely at the discretion of Flyers' executive management.  Executives who delegate these kinds of things to Assistants to the General Manager, as a matter of course.  He has operated in and incorporated their approach and philosophy.  The approach and philosophy that has been, frankly, meme-worthy for a decade plus.  But here he is, the heir apparent, as suggested by The Powers That Be within the Flyers.  Which is to say, Booby Clarke and Paul Holmgren.

You think a directional change comes from that?  You think, "No, we are not doing it the way we have always done anymore; we are carving a new path, a path that takes into the account the smaller, faster, more skilled/less in-your-face style the game requires in the modern age" comes from a person Bob and Paul have specifically groomed from the very beginning of his post-player career?

 

No.  It does not.  IF, and double up on the all caps, IF Briere were to do un-Flyer-like things once he assumes the mantle, he'd be fired.  Just as Hextall was.  Not making deals for short term gains that will at least (and only) put the Flyers in the playoff picture is unacceptable.  Even if those deals would hurt the team badly for years to come.  Not being in the conversation for every high value (and high price tag) FA is unacceptable.  Even if the player does not fit the Flyers' situation or roster, and the required cap hit and term would again cripple the team for years.

If Briere took the reigns and declined to chase expiring FAs with picks and prospects at every deadline, passed on making offers to standout FAs regardless of their fit with the rest of the roster, etc, etc, etc, he'd be fired.  Again, we've seen this.  We've seen that GMs hired with the approval of Bobby and Paul see the axe fall quickly if they don't do exactly the same thing all of the other Flyers' GMs have done.  Briere would be particularly vulnerable, as he has no resume at all, other than what Bobby and Paul have given him.  He gets fired as the Flyers' GM, that career is over.  He better tow the line.

 

What needs to happen is someone from Comcast Spectator needs to step in and say, "you all are insane.  Not to mention shockingly incompetent.  Bob and Paul, you can keep your salaries, maybe, but please sit in the corner and eat potato chips, and be quiet.  You, too, Barber.  Why are you even here?  Anyway, XYZ is your new General Manager, as hired directly by Comcast Spectator, and he answers to us, not you.  Your input is not wanted or welcomed.  Push me, and I take that salary I just promised away.  Be good puppies, and lick your food bowls.  You don't deserve them, and haven't for literally 40 years.  Be thankful, and for fcuk's sake be quiet"

 

Briere can only be more of the same.  Because he was literally created by more of the same.  And I mean no particular disrespect to Briere himself.  He's just a guy with zero leverage, he'd have no choice but to do what he was told.  The Flyers NEED someone that is allowed to say, "no, this has been a stupid and destructive approach for decades, and stops now."  That definitionally requires telling Bob and Paul they have been horrifically wrong for decades.  

 

Think Briere can say that to their faces and keep his job?

This is a great post. I love to find fault with anything, but I think this perspective is flawless

 

Well done  

[mojo1917]

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

What needs to happen is someone from Comcast Spectator needs to step in and say, "you all are insane.  Not to mention shockingly incompetent.  Bob and Paul, you can keep your salaries, maybe, but please sit in the corner and eat potato chips, and be quiet.  You, too, Barber.  Why are you even here?  Anyway, XYZ is your new General Manager, as hired directly by Comcast Spectator, and he answers to us, not you.  Your input is not wanted or welcomed.  Push me, and I take that salary I just promised away.  Be good puppies, and lick your food bowls.  You don't deserve them, and haven't for literally 40 years.  Be thankful, and for fcuk's sake be quiet"

From your fingers to the Hockey God's eyes.

In theory Dave Scott could have been that guy. 

Sigh

[flyercanuck]

17 hours ago, aziz said:

  The Flyers NEED someone that is allowed to say, "no, this has been a stupid and destructive approach for decades, and stops now."  That definitionally requires telling Bob and Paul they have been horrifically wrong for decades.  

 

 

Yes! Yes! Yes! For the love of god, YES!!!!!

[mojo1917]

What do we think the odds are that the "organization" performed/is performing a talent search similar to one that recommended Tortorella ?

I ask this with understanding that the company that recommended Tortorella, and that whole process, wasn't the most transparent in history. There may have been (read:were) conflicts of interest because of Tortorella's involvement with that search company as an investor/principle.

 

That said; Do we think that action, going around the senior advisors by using a corporate style headhunter service was step one to minimizing the role REC and Homer play in the organization?

 

And would Dave Scott and whichever other corporate lackey do it again to replace Fletcher ?

It would seem like an easy way to sideline the senior guys because, so far, the Tortorella hiring has been fine, the team is bad (not his fault) but they don't quit and that's a click or two up from previous bad team years.

 

That Tortorella committee was working very discreetly, it wasn't even really known to have existed until he was announced. Could something similar happen with Chuck's successor?

 

 

[GrittyForever]

On 12/28/2022 at 1:57 PM, CoachX said:

Based on what, how he played?

 

Isn't this resetting the basic question this thread is all about?

How he played, how he talked, interviews, his workout routines (which were amazing). Just his whole attitude. What more do you want?

[GrittyForever]

On 12/28/2022 at 2:05 PM, CoachX said:

John Ferguson Jr., Boston Bruins assistant general manager

Chris MacFarland, Colorado Avalanche assistant general manager

Scott Mellanby, Montreal Canadiens assistant general manager (former Flyer...disqualified)

Kevin Weekes, NHL Network analyst

Mathieu Darche, Tampa Bay Lightning director of hockey operations

 

There's a list. It appears most have had significant roles as at the NHL level for sustained periods. I think that makes for a better candidate than one who was just "groomed" by Holmgren

 

So what makes ANY of them not just another Fletcher? John Ferguson Jr. certainly falls into that category and the bruins drafts have been awful. Kevin Weekes? He's a tv announcer. What makes him better than Briere? 

[GrittyForever]

22 hours ago, aziz said:

So, now, he is being considered for possibly the most important job available.  He is, again, no doubt being considered based on his proven ability to participate in the conversations they want to have, endorse the perspectives and parameters they value. 

So just looking at this idea, what exactly are these perspectives and parameters and what aspect of them is wrong? 

 

There were very good teams in the past that had solid perspectives and parameters. I know the rhetoric, but I don't really think Bobby or Paul is sitting there going all we need to do is find the new Dave Schultz and we're all set. 

 

Fletcher hasn't really followed any sort of identity rhetoric either. He's simply drafted poorly, traded horribly and overpaid the wrong people. He's just failed. 

[GrittyForever]

19 hours ago, SCFlyguy said:

Oh, god, now I have to hear about Little Danny Briere's "work ethic" and "character".  How come that work ethic and character didn't prevent him from taking a hooking penalty every time he lost a puck battle below the goal line in the offensive zone?

 

I guess emotional and lazy is sort of a kind of work ethic and character.

So not a fan then?

 

 

[aziz]

1 hour ago, GrittyForever said:

So just looking at this idea, what exactly are these perspectives and parameters and what aspect of them is wrong?

 

I'm going to keep it vague, because frankly, the approach is vague.  But roughly, it is the idea that the future can work itself out and doesn't need to be built towards.  When there are problems, significant changes to the team's in-the-moment roster need to be made as soon as possible, and any eventual complications from those additions can be ignored until they manifest.  This is why Kevin Hayes, a big, slow, and decidedly one-way player, will be a $7.1mil cap hot for the team until summer of 2026.  It is why Ristolainen, a big, slow, untalented career -179 defenseman will be a $5.1mil cap hit, also until 2026.  Ryan Ellis with a $6.25mil cap hit (which does NOT just go away with the LTIR) until 2027 (when he'll be 36).  Cam Atkinson at $5.8mil until 2025.  As some of the current examples.  Many of these moves involve the loss of prospects and/or picks, and ALL of them will hurt the team badly over the next 3, 4, 5 years.  Even if they were able to help in the very short term (which they aren't).  Historically, we could go on all day with the Flyers' need for immediate returns while ignoring long-term sustainability.  Oats, Forsberg, Reonick, Briere (interestingly), Primeau, Pronger, Brysgalov, and so on.  These kinds of moves have constantly reduced the Flyers' ability to develop prospects, and ensured the Flyers have ongoing cap problems without a roster to match, and Bobby et all have encouraged -demanded- them going back into the 90's.  If the next guy that comes in maintains that approach, the Flyers will continue to have bloated and deeply ineffective rosters, period.  You cannot bleed young assets/picks in favor of either middling talent, or talent at the tail end of their careers, in a capped league and expect to be competitive over anything resembling the long term.  The piper will demand his pay, and generally quickly.  And in many cases, immediately.

 

1 hour ago, GrittyForever said:

There were very good teams in the past that had solid perspectives and parameters. I know the rhetoric, but I don't really think Bobby or Paul is sitting there going all we need to do is find the new Dave Schultz and we're all set. 

 

They are, though.  They always are.  Get the new name in here and the ship will be righted.  Have a prospect the move will bury?  Who cares, get the big name right now.  That's why Bobrovsky has had himself a really solid career elsewhere, while the Flyers got enjoy paying through the nose for Bryzgalov, AND ARE STILL PAYING FOR HIM.

 

Look, the approach had some viability before the cap.  The Flyers had the cash to sweep mistakes under the carpet, and be at or near the top of bidding for FAs every summer.  It used to work.  Hell, Detroit had a mini-dynasty building with their wallet in the 90's.  It could even almost work in the first few years of the cap, before the league tightened up the vague areas of the cap language and the Flyers had committed themselves to 10+ year cap hits for not-amazing players.  Now, the maneuverability is not there anymore, and the approach has the Flyers where they are right now.  The Flyers will stay where they are until they commit to a different approach, one that respects and relies on picks and prospects, and sees the trading of either as deeply undesirable.  And, just as importantly, thinks about the cap situation 4 years down the road as much as they think about the current one.

 

1 hour ago, GrittyForever said:

Fletcher hasn't really followed any sort of identity rhetoric either. He's simply drafted poorly, traded horribly and overpaid the wrong people. He's just failed. 

 

Well, for starts, I'll never get on a GM for their drafting history.  It really is little different than playing darts blindfolded, anticipating what children will be when they become adults.  But on the traded horribly and overpaid the wrong people....I promise you he was following orders on both fronts.  The moves he has made have all smelled exactly like Bobby and Paul moves.  Just with depleted resources available to spend.  Fletcher is exactly what Clarke and Homer want.  He just had the misfortune of showing up when the cupboards were bare of developed talent and the team's cap commitments gave him (relatively) little to work with.  He did his damnest, though, to fit in their shoes.

 

And that's what can't happen again.  And that is why the next GM needs to have NOTHING to do with the current inner circle.  That circle is fully toxic.  The only thing that has kept the Flyers from the very bottom of the league over the last 30 years they've been in control have been its very very deep pockets.  But that doesn't mean anything, anymore.  And their current "choice" for the GM's chair is proving it.

 

The next guy can't be their choice.  Which means it can't be Briere.  Much luck to the guy, but his mentors have been exactly the wrong people.  EXACTLY the wrong people.

[CoachX]

15 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

How he played, how he talked, interviews, his workout routines (which were amazing). Just his whole attitude. What more do you want?

What more do I want? I'm pretty sure AZIZ has outlined this ad nauseam. However, I want a GM with some kind of proven, and or established, record as an executive at the NHL level. And that is NOT Danny Briere. If being a good player was all it takes to be a GM, Wayne Gretzky would need a new house to display all his SC wins. In retrospect, you could've been a mouth breathing goon and have success in management. See Craig Berube. This franchise does not need another member of the good 'ol boys club who can sit around Bully's Pub signing autographs and talking about the good old days. This franchise needs a guy with the chops to do the job, and as said, they need to leave him the fck alone and let him do it

[CoachX]

15 hours ago, GrittyForever said:

So what makes ANY of them not just another Fletcher? John Ferguson Jr. certainly falls into that category and the bruins drafts have been awful. Kevin Weekes? He's a tv announcer. What makes him better than Briere? 

I don't know if they are the next Fletcher anymore than you know if they aren't. But all of them, minus Weekes, have sustained work histories at the NHL level. Weekes is regarded as an up and coming, highly intelligent candidate. Then again, so is Briere. So that's a wash, good point. Again though, my point is I want a GM with NHL level experience, not a Holmgren "mini-me"

[GrittyForever]

5 hours ago, CoachX said:

What more do I want? I'm pretty sure AZIZ has outlined this ad nauseam. However, I want a GM with some kind of proven, and or established, record as an executive at the NHL level. And that is NOT Danny Briere. If being a good player was all it takes to be a GM, Wayne Gretzky would need a new house to display all his SC wins. In retrospect, you could've been a mouth breathing goon and have success in management. See Craig Berube. This franchise does not need another member of the good 'ol boys club who can sit around Bully's Pub signing autographs and talking about the good old days. This franchise needs a guy with the chops to do the job, and as said, they need to leave him the fck alone and let him do it

So you want Fletcher. Cause that's what you just described when he was hired. 

 

I'm not going to quote Aziz's post because it was long and thought out. It wasn't wrong either, I just prefer to think (hope?) that some lessons have been learned and what we actually do need is a younger guy with new ideas rather than a crusty old GM set in his. 

Kevyn Adams for example seems to have finally righted the ship in Buffalo and a Briere hire would be exactly like that one. Seen as inexperienced and a yes man to the owner and then he won fans over by fleecing the Flyers. So we need that guy to flip the script. 

Aziz isn't wrong, they've spent years wrongly thinking they were "close" and you just needed a few veteran pieces but it was horribly wrong and with some injuries went right off the rails. I still want to believe, however, that the era ended with Claude's departure and as soon as Fletcher is dumped as the latest excuse/whipping boy, we can move into a new era properly. new requires new imo, and that might seem unproven at first, but can also be the right path. 

[flyercanuck]

5 hours ago, CoachX said:

This franchise needs a guy with the chops to do the job

 

13 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

So you want Fletcher.

 

 

One of these things is not like the other. 

Fletcher does not "have the chops to do the job". He has no clue what he's doing. At any part of the job.

[CoachX]

11 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

So you want Fletcher. Cause that's what you just described when he was hired.

You're exhausting! You simply want to take what you want to fit your argument. How about this, I will just stop arguing with you and let you go on being wrong

 

Just because every other possible candidate is not Briere, does not make them Fletcher. You seem to be arguing that very point. You have no knowledge of possible qualified applicants, as you mentioned in an above post, so you are convinced Briere is the answer, specifically because you liked him as a player

 

18 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I just prefer to think (hope?) that some lessons have been learned and what we actually do need is a younger guy with new ideas rather than a crusty old GM set in his. 

Kevyn Adams for example seems to have finally righted the ship in Buffalo and a Briere hire would be exactly like that one. Seen as inexperienced and a yes man to the owner and then he won fans over by fleecing the Flyers. So we need that guy to flip the script. 

The BUF is currently 17-14-2 with 36 pts. Thats 5pts ahead of the Flyers. They are also the 5th Wild Card. If that's a "righted" ship make sure there are plenty of lifeboats. And I'm pretty sure you or I could convince Fletcher to trade us a carton of new game sweaters for a pet rock. Not much in that accomplishment

 

23 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

Aziz isn't wrong, they've spent years wrongly thinking they were "close" and you just needed a few veteran pieces but it was horribly wrong and with some injuries went right off the rails.

Injuries? Yeah there were injuries. There always are. But we aren't talking about short term wins and loses. The issue is long term mismanagement of contracts that have anchored this franchise to dumpster.

 

28 minutes ago, GrittyForever said:

I still want to believe, however, that the era ended with Claude's departure and as soon as Fletcher is dumped as the latest excuse/whipping boy, we can move into a new era properly.

Did I read this right? You think Fletcher being fired would an "excuse" or "whipping boy"? If so please let me know so I can politely back out of this conversation and move on to something else