Game 26: Philadelphia Flyers at Arizona Coyotes; 12/7/23 @ 9 PM, NBCSP

[RonJeremy]

On 12/10/2023 at 2:46 PM, mojo1617 said:

The Flyers aren't "there" yet but it doesn't look too far to me. 

They are not as good as the Rangers , Canes and Devils, the gap isn't as vast as I thought it would be. 

As far as  goaltending and potential on offense we are not too far off, especially if Michkov and Gauthier are the real dea. These guys to go along with Konecny, Tippett, Farabee, Brink ,Foerester and Frost, we have some nice skill and potentially some good offensive output, but we are waaay off on defense, we don't have anything close to Trouba and Fox, not on our team or within our system. We don't even have anyone that's ready to replace Seeler and Walker. So we either have to hit a homerun in the draft to get a top pair pair defensemen or trade a guy like Konecny because it's not happening any other way. If we keep winning and drop out of the bottom six or seven, then drafting that impact dman is not likely. The two biggest keys to expediting the rebuild is getting a top dman and a legit # 2 center. We may have the center in Gauthier but we don't have the dman.

Edited December 13, 2023 by radoran

[mojo1917]

@RonJeremy

Travis Sanhiem has been really good for the last month +.

If you watch him, he's making good plays everywhere, all the time.

If you remember him from his younger days and let that cloud what you see, well he'll never get past getting dumped by Nathan Gerbe when he was 20.

But, He's bigger, he's earning his contract, he's been real *****' good. 

I don't know if I think he's the answer, but this D corps as a whole has been way, way better than anyone expected and he's a big part of that improvement. 

When I see posts like yours, I wonder, is he watching?

Not that I don't agree with a lot of what you've been saying, but in this case #6 has been playing 25 minutes a night, carrying his pairing, playing in all situations and he's made me wonder if Provorv's presence was holding him back?

Dude's on a roll.

 

 

Edited December 13, 2023 by mojo1917

[RonJeremy]

26 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@RonJeremy

Travis Sanhiem has been really good for the last month +.

If you watch him, he's making good plays everywhere, all the time.

If you remember him from his younger days and let that cloud what you see, well he'll never get past getting dumped by Nathan Gerbe when he was 20.

But, He's bigger, he's earning his contract, he's been real *****' good. 

I don't know if I think he's the answer, but this D corps as a whole has been way, way better than anyone expected and he's a big part of that improvement. 

When I see posts like yours, I wonder, is he watching?

Not that I don't agree with a lot of what you've been saying, but in this case #6 has been playing 25 minutes a night, carrying his pairing, playing in all situations and he's made me wonder if Provorv's presence was holding him back?

Dude's on a roll.

 

 

I agree, Sanheim has  finally arrived, he is our best dman and he is also taking more chances and making great plays in the offensive zone, but he is a far cry from Trouba and Fox. He is probably a good #2 guy, but he'd be even better if we had our own Fox/Trouba type guy as his partner. Sanheim and York are doing well, but Seeler and Walker are playing over their heads and pending UFAs. Most  pending UFAs, have career years in a contract season , so I won't be fooled into thinking we should re- sign them. The situation is, when we dump them at the deadline,  it's gonna be Ginning and Attard who probably are called up but that still doesn't solve our lack of a stud dman moving into the rebuild.  Not saying they would, but If the Islanders offered Dobson for Konecny would you do it? We need to make a modern day Recchi for Desjardins trade and only a guy like Konecny will get us that or else we have to strike gold at the draft. If we got another top center(Gauthier)? and a top dman via a trade , we instantly become a playoff team, especially with the continued improvement coming from our young forwards. 

Edited December 13, 2023 by RonJeremy

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, RonJeremy said:

but If the Islanders offered Dobson for Konecny would you do it?

Good question.

I don't know enough about Dobson to say yes or no.

I remember he was drafted pretty high and played for team USA. 

When I watched the Isles he didn't seem super effective, not the way Pelech and Pulock were backintheday. Even though they beat the Flyers once, I wasn't impressed by anyone on that team the way I was 3 years ago. 

I know he's their top minute guy now, but trading Konecny and almost guaranteed 30 goals for a maybe? ( like I said I don't know enough about him ).

I'm leaning no just off of the two times I saw him this year. So not enough info. 

Do you think a Recchi for Dejardins trade can happen in today's NHL? 

It's been a long time since I've seen a win-win like that one.

 

[RonJeremy]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Good question.

I don't know enough about Dobson to say yes or no.

I remember he was drafted pretty high and played for team USA. 

When I watched the Isles he didn't seem super effective, not the way Pelech and Pulock were backintheday. Even though they beat the Flyers once, I wasn't impressed by anyone on that team the way I was 3 years ago. 

I know he's their top minute guy now, but trading Konecny and almost guaranteed 30 goals for a maybe? ( like I said I don't know enough about him ).

I'm leaning no just off of the two times I saw him this year. So not enough info. 

Do you think a Recchi for Dejardins trade can happen in today's NHL? 

It's been a long time since I've seen a win-win like that one.

 

think it can, the Recchi for Desjardins trade was pretty even, until LeClair turned into a monster and swung it to a big Flyers win, but it was basically a top winger for a top defenseman. Neither team thought Leclair would become a 50 goal guy. l use Dobson as an example , it doesn't have to be him, but an up and coming high end defenseman like him, although I think Dobson will be a #1 . I'm not saying we are gonna fleece anyone in a trade, but trading a skilled guy like Konecny for an equally skilled younger dman is a good move since we have alot of young skilled right wingers like Tippett,Foerester,  Brink and Michkov. You deal from strength to shore up a weak area. We just have to find a team that is weak on offense but has good young dmen or a three way trade. Konecny is on his way to 40 goals,his value is increasing,  would you do a Jiricek and a pick for him? 

P.S. Dobson has 27 points in 27 games

Edited December 13, 2023 by RonJeremy

[GratefulFlyers]

4 hours ago, RonJeremy said:

I'm not saying we are gonna fleece anyone in a trade, but trading a skilled guy like Konecny for an equally skilled younger dman is a good move

As the resident broken record where TK is concerned… I think your idea is exactly right just change the name. Don’t trade Konecny. Konecny is so much more than his point production. His value to the Flyers is irreplaceable. Were he to leave, for whatever reason, the Flyers’ identity would change and not for the better.

 

Irreplaceable is too dramatic but losing him would mean starting over to some degree. He’s that important to what the Flyers are trying to be. Guys who play like him are rare. The Flyers are lucky to have him.

 

 

[RonJeremy]

14 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

As the resident broken record where TK is concerned… I think your idea is exactly right just change the name. Don’t trade Konecny. Konecny is so much more than his point production. His value to the Flyers is irreplaceable. Were he to leave, for whatever reason, the Flyers’ identity would change and not for the better.

 

Irreplaceable is too dramatic but losing him would mean starting over to some degree. He’s that important to what the Flyers are trying to be. Guys who play like him are rare. The Flyers are lucky to have him.

 

 

Problem is we have no other player of Konecnys caliber who also has a reasonable contract,  so no other player will get us back the type of dman we need.

[GratefulFlyers]

9 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Problem is we have no other player of Konecnys caliber who also has a reasonable contract,  so no other player will get us back the type of dman we need.

 

Yes that's true and the Flyers will eventually need help on D. But there's no pressing need right now. When the time comes, next year maybe (?) I still wouldn't trade Konecny. To me he's a big reason why the Flyers are playing "the right way" now - whatever that means exactly - quick transitions, north-south hockey, attacking the net, hard on the PK etc. 

 

Meanwhile Andae is skating top-pair minutes in Lehigh. Attard, Ginning...somebody else I'm forgetting...are (hopefully) developing into NHLers. Also next year's draft has some good D prospects. Obviously that all means a slower pace to the rebuild but imho that's okay.

[RonJeremy]

4 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

 

Yes that's true and the Flyers will eventually need help on D. But there's no pressing need right now. When the time comes, next year maybe (?) I still wouldn't trade Konecny. To me he's a big reason why the Flyers are playing "the right way" now - whatever that means exactly - quick transitions, north-south hockey, attacking the net, hard on the PK etc. 

 

Meanwhile Andae is skating top-pair minutes in Lehigh. Attard, Ginning...somebody else I'm forgetting...are (hopefully) developing into NHLers. Also next year's draft has some good D prospects. Obviously that all means a slower pace to the rebuild but imho that's okay.

I dont see any of the dmen on the Phantoms as top pair or dominant defenseman , they are probably solid second or third pair guys. The thing is, it takes defenseman a long time to develop and become a consistent factor, so even if we draft a great guy in June it's probably 4-5 years before he's a difference maker, unless we somehow draft a modern day Ray Bourque. I think we need a top dman in place and contributing within two seasons at most. Having a true leader on the blueline with top PP QB skills will improve the whole team greatly. Do you realize how many extra wins you get per season by having a great PP. We have some playmakers up front for the PP,.bit none of our dman are PP QBs, our PP has sucked for ten years 

[radoran]

Konecny by himself won't net a bonafide, established young #1 D and if he doesn't get that, he's not worth dealing.

 

Especially if Konecny is willing to take a Couturier style discount and sign early - a risk assuming they have investigated his back... - he's a fine "lifetime Flyer."

[GratefulFlyers]

On 12/14/2023 at 3:19 PM, RonJeremy said:

I think we need a top dman in place and contributing within two seasons at most.

wow really? I mean it would be great and the Flyers are certainly exceeding expectations this year. But I still a thousand times prefer not going after a Stud D-man at the expense of the Flyers ’ best player, even if you could get one for Konecny.

 

…which of course is @radoran’s point, and I agree is true: nobody’s giving up their #1 D-man for TK. If you could get Trouba or Adam Fox then maybe…a big maybe for me, but at least it’s a conversation. But I think reality is the return just won’t be worth it.

 

edit @RonJeremy I forgot to ask you, why the rush? Or maybe you don’t see it as rushed? Personally I think it’s quite possible the Flyers take a step backwards next season if they unload as many players at the TD as I expect them to. Without Seeler, Walker and (hopefully) Ristolainen the D is painfully thin. But I pray they don’t trade picks and prospects to shore it up. Slow and steady good quick fix bad.

 

Edited December 16, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[RonJeremy]

On 12/15/2023 at 6:30 PM, GratefulFlyers said:

wow really? I mean it would be great and the Flyers are certainly exceeding expectations this year. But I still a thousand times prefer not going after a Stud D-man at the expense of the Flyers ’ best player, even if you could get one for Konecny.

 

…which of course is @radoran’s point, and I agree is true: nobody’s giving up their #1 D-man for TK. If you could get Trouba or Adam Fox then maybe…a big maybe for me, but at least it’s a conversation. But I think reality is the return just won’t be worth it.

 

edit @RonJeremy I forgot to ask you, why the rush? Or maybe you don’t see it as rushed? Personally I think it’s quite possible the Flyers take a step backwards next season if they unload as many players at the TD as I expect them to. Without Seeler, Walker and (hopefully) Ristolainen the D is painfully thin. But I pray they don’t trade picks and prospects to shore it up. Slow and steady good quick fix bad.

 

You have to look long-term, we have Coots at 7 million for 6-7 more years, Hart will need a new contract soon. Coots has 3 good years left at best, then you have massive diminishing returns. Konecny has two years left, then then he will be 27-28. He surely will be looking for a long term big contract, if we didn't have Coots ,then OK sign Konecny, but to me , you will be doing exactly what we have done in the past and blowing the cap on older players. Konecny is gonna be looking for 8 million, for 8 year, especially if he scores 40 goals as he's on pace to do.

 

We have alot of skill on right wing especially.. Tippett, Foerester,  Brink and Michkov are probably top 2 line guys . Sure we can move somebody yo left wing and Konecny is our best player but he is a right wing too and thats the exact reason you trade him.  You cant have top 3 guys playing third and fourth line. You trade from strength.  We are not getting Cal Makar for him, I known that. I'm talking about a package deal where you get a pick and a top defensive prospect like a Brandt Clarke or Noah Dobson, a guy who may not necessarily be in the NHL yet or a guy who is up and coming but is a can't miss guy. 

 

Without a true #1 defensemen and a true #2 center the team will not become legit contenders. Yes, when we dump Seeler and Walker ,we will take a step back but we are playing ourselves out of a top pick in a draft that's loaded with defensemen.  So where and when are we gonna find this defensemen without a trade? You are not getting him with the 15th pick either. Is it any mystery why the  PP sucks and why the team has sucked for years . We finally have the goaltending and some great prospects, but we do not have the defense ,which has been a problem for ten years. We do not have a go to guy ,a leader, PP catalyst or defensive catalyst on our defense .

 

To sum it up, I love Konecny, but to get something, you have to give something. I'm factoring in age, pending contract, depth at right wing and length of the rebuild and the chance to expedite the rebuild. As I've said, you trade Konecny, only for the right return.  We gave up Linseman to get Howe and we gave up Recchi to get Desjardins and both times we became a way better team.

 

We have much better players and prospects up front then we do on defense. Once we have Gauthier and Michkov, we are not gonna have any problems scoring. That's why we can afford to trade Konecny to get a dman. Andrae,Ginning,.Attard and Bonk are not the game changers we need on defense, they are second pair guys at best.

 

 

[RonJeremy]

On 12/14/2023 at 6:13 PM, radoran said:

Konecny by himself won't net a bonafide, established young #1 D and if he doesn't get that, he's not worth dealing.

 

Especially if Konecny is willing to take a Couturier style discount and sign early - a risk assuming they have investigated his back... - he's a fine "lifetime Flyer."

I'm not saying we need a bonafide established dman, with the proper scouting consensus and some foresight we can trade him for a top rated young defensemen who isn't necessarily called an allstar yet.  Dobson is a guy like that, Brandt Clarke,Jiricek also.  There are other highly regarded young dmen who also fit that criteria.  Konecny is one his way to 40 goals this year, his value is even more now.  So maybe a pick and a top rated young dman or Konecny.  It's gotta be the right deal of course.

[mojo1917]

33 minutes ago, RonJeremy said:

Brandt Clarke

I have heard good things about him. 

Konecny for Clarke + or straight up?

[GratefulFlyers]

@RonJeremy

 

Thanks for fleshing out your thinking...it makes perfect sense if we were talking about any other player. I value TK highly. To me he's a rare bird in the NHL, extremely valuable, particularly to a growing team that's been without balls, without a personality for years. 

 

In any case your potential return for Konecny - since we agree it won't be a bona-fide NHL star - can be had using the same process you envision in a trade: in a word, scouting. The only difference seems to me you prefer relying on another team's scouts instead of the Flyers'. Fair enough but the Flyers revamped their scouting department last summer, new leadership, etc. I'd like to see who they target before I trade Konecny. 

 

[flyercanuck]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I have heard good things about him. 

Konecny for Clarke + or straight up?

 

I'd want a + with Clarke, he's still a prospect. I'd love to have him on Philly, watched him and Foerster play for Barrie for 3 years. I think he's going to be a good one, but he's still just a prospect.

[mojo1917]

@GratefulFlyers @RonJeremy

 

I think I'd like to see what Oliver Bonk starts to show before I trade a heart and soul guy like TK .

I have read multiple scouting reports that put his floor as top 4, stating he's a quick study and has room in his game to take over the ice like a top pairing player, but hasn't been required to do so.

He's got pedigree and talent, I'll be paying attention to him at this year's WJT. He's going to be have opportunity to fill that top pairing role. 

[radoran]

I'll trade anyone for the right deal.

 

I just don't know who we're talking about as the hypothetical.

 

Owen Power?

 

Who's got two promising #1 upside defensemen and need a RW?

[RonJeremy]

15 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

@RonJeremy

 

Thanks for fleshing out your thinking...it makes perfect sense if we were talking about any other player. I value TK highly. To me he's a rare bird in the NHL, extremely valuable, particularly to a growing team that's been without balls, without a personality for years. 

 

In any case your potential return for Konecny - since we agree it won't be a bona-fide NHL star - can be had using the same process you envision in a trade: in a word, scouting. The only difference seems to me you prefer relying on another team's scouts instead of the Flyers'. Fair enough but the Flyers revamped their scouting department last summer, new leadership, etc. I'd like to see who they target before I trade Konecny. 

 

The whole point is, we are winning too many games and playing ourselves out of a top 5-10 pick. This draft is loaded with defensemen and odds are the best defenceman will be  gone by the time we pick. That's why I'm proposing a trade. The other thing is the guy we'd draft  won't be a factor for 3-5 years. I'd like to have a dominant defensemen in place for when Michkov comes over. Defensemen take long to develop, look at Sanheim. We have some real good offensive players and more coming, we have no high end defenseman on thr horizon.  

[RonJeremy]

10 hours ago, radoran said:

I'll trade anyone for the right deal.

 

I just don't know who we're talking about as the hypothetical.

 

Owen Power?

 

Who's got two promising #1 upside defensemen and need a RW?

As one example, The Islanders are desperate for a goal scorer and they have a great young defensemen Dobson. He scored 50 points last year and has 26 points in 26 games this year .He was drafted a few picks before Farabee, so he's still young. I have no idea if the Islanders would do that trade or if the Flyers  would . They probably dont want Konecny haunting them for the next 5 years like so many other former Flyers did. So the only thing Briere can do is make some calls and see what kind of deals are out there, you can always do a three team deal if possible.  LA has always been rumored to love Konecny, so Brandt Clarke and a pick sounds fair.

[flyerdog]

On 12/8/2023 at 8:55 PM, MaineFlyFan said:

And just so you all know, there are MOST DEFINITELY coyotes in Quebec!.... big ones.

 

CARRY ON..... ;.)

 

 

yes but the 4 legged type I assume